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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939937 - 07/29/04 10:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose you would be in favor of all the capitalist-pig corporations being forced to pull their sweatshops out of developing third world countries?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939945 - 07/29/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think any decent, sane human being would not be in favour of such an occurrence.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939949 - 07/29/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
Even if it did benefit the citizens more, it would be at the expense of other peoples lives and well being. The rich get richer while the poor keep on getting poorer.




Except in almost all relatively economically free countries where the rich get richer AND the poor get richer.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939951 - 07/29/04 10:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

do you really think what those corporations are doing is right?? should we exploit people so we can have cheaper products?

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2939960 - 07/29/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe people should be richer than others in the first place, so this is all, really quite irrelevant to me.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939966 - 07/29/04 10:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
I don't believe people should be richer than others in the first place, so this is all, really quite irrelevant to me.




thats pretty communist...i believe if u work harder u should achieve more...i think everyone should start with an equal chance to succeed though

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939972 - 07/29/04 10:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The world lacks compassion, which is our major downfall.
Whilst the greedy bastards continue to support such indecent crimes against humanity and continue to support slave labour we are all doomed.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939982 - 07/29/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a dirty commie! :smile: I'm leaning toward anarchy, actually.
I too believe that we should all have an equal chance in life, something that does not exist at the moment.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939984 - 07/29/04 10:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

yes corporation are insanely greedy, do commit terrible human rights abuses and prevent unions in 3rd world countries thorugh violence. we need reform. however if someone works harder than someone else they shouldnt be paid the same.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2939990 - 07/29/04 10:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

rogue_pixie said:
I don't think any decent, sane human being would not be in favour of such an occurrence.



Very unfortunate you would say that. I'm afraid a tremendous amount of third world citizens would be absolutely devestated to lose those relatively well-paying and abundant jobs.

Third world sweatshops

"Low-Wage Costa Ricans Make Baseballs for Millionaires."

That was the headline on one of those New York Times "news" stories that continued its recent tradition of disguised editorials. The headline said it all but the story ran on and on anyway, with details and quotes that added nothing to the familiar story that Third World workers don't earn nearly as much money as most Americans, even when they work for rich American companies.

Perhaps the best refutation of the implied message of this "news" story also appeared in the New York Times, in a frankly labeled op-ed piece by the paper's own Nicholas D. Kristof. Writing from Cambodia, Kristof reported: "Here in Cambodia factory jobs are in such demand that workers usually have to bribe a factory insider with a month's salary just to get hired."

The workers in Cambodia receive even lower wages than those in Costa Rica. But the difference is that the report from Cambodia spelled out what the local workers' alternatives were and how anxious they are to get the jobs denounced by intellectuals and politicians in affluent countries.

"Nhep Chanda averages 75 cents a day for her efforts. For her, the idea of being exploited in a garment factory -- working only six days a week, inside instead of in the broiling sun, for up to $2 a day -- is a dream."

By and large, multinational companies pay about double the local wages in Third World countries. As for "exploitation," the vast majority of American investment overseas goes to high-wage countries, not low-wage countries.

Why are these international capitalists passing up supposedly golden opportunities for exploitation? Because they understand economics better than most intellectuals and politicians, who are content to score cheap points, without worrying about the logic or the consequences.

If outsiders succeed in pressuring or forcing multinational companies to pay higher wages, that will make it more economical for those companies to relocate many of their operations to more affluent countries, where the higher productivity of the workers there will cover the higher wage rates.

Net result: Third World workers will be worse off for having lost better jobs than most of them can find locally. Meanwhile, Western intellectuals and politicians will be congratulating themselves for having ended exploitation.

At the heart of all this is a confusion between the vagaries of fate and the sins of man. All of us wish that workers in Costa Rica and Cambodia, not to mention other poor countries, were able to earn higher pay and live better lives. But wishing will not make it so and causing them to lose their jobs will not help.

It is tragic that people in some societies simply have not had the same opportunities to develop more valuable skills and that those societies have not had economic and political systems that promote economic progress comparable to that in most Western countries.

Low pay is one symptom of that fact -- and changing the symptom will not change the underlying problem, which is that the people in such countries got a raw deal from fate, history, geography or culture. But the left attempts to blame Western employers who are providing these workers with better options than they had before.

The left-wing spin is that the poor are poor because the rich are rich. That opens the door for a big power-grab by the left in the name of "fairness" or "social justice" or whatever other rhetoric resonates with the unwary and the ill-informed.

Unfortunately, this theory does not also resonate with the facts. Whether domestically or internationally, investors looking for the highest rates of return usually steer clear of poor areas and put their money where there are people with more advanced skills, living in more prosperous countries, even if they have to pay much higher salaries in such countries.

The United States, for example, has long invested more in Canada than in all of poverty-stricken sub-Saharan Africa, where wage rates are a fraction of Canadian wage rates. If the facts mattered -- and if the poor really mattered to their supposed saviors -- the implications of that would have been understood long ago.

-----------------------------------------------

Economics is not a zero-sum game. It would do you well to learn that.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2939999 - 07/29/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I can see this turning into a debate about anarchism, I'd better run now....But money is the root of evil, sorry about that clich? but I do believe that is is. Putting value upon things - everything that we do is valued, without money humans die, they die every day from starvation and easily cureable diseases. They die because of the way in which we live. It's because of their suffering that we are able to lead such comfortable lifestyles and that really makes me quite sick.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940000 - 07/29/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i dont think you are well educated in the area of sweatshops...not to insult you...but ive read countless papers, been to lectures and wrote essays on them..if you knew what really went on, you would be very suprised...it would take me awhile to layout the points

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940022 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Where are you finding all of this bullshit propaganda from?

Of course they are not better off under our thumb, they may even believe that they are because they have been forced to become dependant upon our corporations - that I won't deny. Rightly so, you take them away and they may well be much worse off.

The solution is simple, to give them their land back, give them their wealth back in order for them to build their society. As long as we are in there exploiting them, they will always remain desperately poor and struggling to survive.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


Edited by rogue_pixie (07/29/04 10:25 AM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940024 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But money is the root of evil, sorry about that clich? but I do believe that is is




Money hasn't the ability to be evil, people are the root of all evil. Don't blame the money.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2940028 - 07/29/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

By all means, grace me with your knowledge. Just note, I never said a sweatshop was a good place to spend a day, nor did I say I would choose to work in a sweatshop given the opportunity. The article merely points out that western corporations provide significantly better employment opportunities for third world denizens then do local employers. What is wrong with that?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Invisiblerogue_pixie
faerydae
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 3,977
Loc: UK
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2940035 - 07/29/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

People are evil yes, as I said earlier, the problem is that we lack compassion. But I also believe money to be part of the problem.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2940040 - 07/29/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

let me give you a little idea of how these companies work:

- a company lets it be known that they are looking to setup shop in a 3rd world countries

- countries, usually under the control of brutal dictatorships send out brochures with pictures of their native people ...they brag that they have no unions, no regulations, and low taxes

- corporations setup shop, factories are dangerous there are no saftey regulations, workers are routinely maimed and killed. textile and tanning industry workers must retire around age 30 because they are so damaged from inhaling fumes and such.

- the pay is so little that many people cant afford their own homes. corps setup giant warehouse dorms, full of vermin and leaks.

- if anyone dares to attempt to setup a union, they disapear..there are many accounts of people ceasing to exist after they even propose to unite.

- most workers put in 12-14 hour days and are paid below the level of subsistance

those are just a few points...do u really think we should be paying kids 25cents a week to sew nikes?

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940041 - 07/29/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Money is a tool, a medium of exchange. Getting rid of money would not get rid of envy, greed or power lust.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940046 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Many humans are compassionate, some are not. You have no right to FORCE them to be 'compassionate.' In my mind, all sense of 'compassion' dissipates once force is initiated.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: fiscal conservatism [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #2940047 - 07/29/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the problem is that we lack compassion




Compassion is relative. I have compassion for those that try things and fail.

Quote:

But I also believe money to be part of the problem




explain to me how money has the ability to be part of any problem. Like I said there's nothing wrong with money rather the people who handle it.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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