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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption?
    #2932189 - 07/27/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

One does not need to be interested in the Bible per se, or be the least bit 'churchy' to still wonder what the deal is - Really - about the nature of Jesus the Christ. You might think, 'how interesting and how tragic for Him, but what does that Man's life and death have to do with me two millennium later?'

Few young people realize that, aside from all the 'new' Gospels that are now available from Nag Hammadi, the ordinary Matthew, Mark and Luke tell a completely different 'Christology' than John does. The first three books are called 'the Synoptic books' [one view] and portray Jesus as a human being. In those books, Jesus was 'adopted' as the Divine 'Son of God' (Son of God is a regular title for all kings in the Old Testament - Divine Right of kingship), when the mytho-symbolic dove representing the Holy Spirit of God, alighted upon Him after His baptism.

In the Gospel of John, a very very different picture is painted, and this picture has unconsciously colored peoples' entire view of the Syoptics as well. For John, Jesus the Christ was not a man who was 'Anointed' (Christed or Christened) by God at His baptism - He was God Who 'clothed Himself' in human flesh, and came to Earth through a human female, taking flesh from her body. This is why icons in the Orthodox Church always portray the baby Jesus (with Virgin) as having a tiny but adult-looking face. It symbolizes the fully aware Christ [Consciousness] being present even while an embryo, fetus, neonate, baby.

SO WHAT?!, You might add. Well, God who merely disguises Himself in the form of a human being, and Who suspends the laws of nature including rising from death can be expected of God (theoretically). But, a human being (and let us remove the mythic midrashic Virgin Birth) who can be 'adopted' into the Life of God, which is Eternal Life, while still walking around the planet as a flesh-and-blood human...now THAT is relevant to all of us because THAT becomes an option for all of us!

What are the implications? Let me attempt to illustrate. Does a fish Realize that it is wet? Probably not. Does an astronaut suspended in space tend to experience space as Nothingness, as Void, or does [s]he Realize his/her connectedness, co-extensiveness with the fabric of space-time? Probably experiences Nothingness, even though it is true that his/her physical body IS inseparable from the fabric of space-time. But, the 'contracted' mind, identified with only limited space-time (the body) will not experience such oneness. The 'expanded' mind includes identification with one's body, but transcends this sensory identification to include (conceptually) the entire universe! The Mystical Body of Christ.

Before C.G. Jung died, he and physicist Wolfgang Pauli were attempting to formulate a theory (note the prefix theo- or God, in theory) that space-time and consciousness were two sides of the same coin, so-to-speak. This essentially means that anything happening (physically or psychically) anywhere in space-time, was IN REALITY, happening in our consciousness as well. Not our mundane, ordinary contracted conscious awareness, but in our consciousness nevertheless. If one's consciousness were expanded to the maximum degree, our consciousness would be identical with all of space-time. Not only would clairvoyance and precognition be apparent (miraculous and prophetic vision), but omniscience would occur. Not to be confused with Omnipotence (theologically, the Creator, the Father), Omniscience would be the Son, Christ, Being-in-Christ or Christ Consciousness. This would be absolute oneness, 'wholeness,' (the same root as Holiness). And, insofar as the archaic word for consciousness is 'spirit,' 'whole' or 'holy' consciousness means 'Holy Spirit.' Further, since the idea of 'the Holy Trinity' was an invention of theologian Tertullian in the 3rd century, and not an idea that Jesus ever had, or Jews in general, these names of Christ and Holy Spirit can be used interchangably with regard to the consciousness of omniscience. This is the heresy of 'Modalism,' but, so what? I don't expect many hits on this thread, and even fewer read-throughs. It's raining out, I'm on summer break, I slept late and drank a strong cup of coffee. My mission is to mutate Christian doctrine into something meaningful and relevant to Entheogen Enthusiasts. 'Let those with eyes, see.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2932610 - 07/27/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't digested everything you wrote yet, but here are a few random thoughts based on the above...

> Well, God who merely disguises Himself in the form of a human being ...

This has always bothered me.  People tend to express that which cannot be expressed in human terms.  God's love, or God's feelings, or God's judgement are all examples.  There is a reason why the name of God cannot be spoken...

> The 'expanded' mind includes identification with one's body, but transcends this sensory identification to include (conceptually) the entire universe!

Again, this doesn't hold with my experience... though it is a fine line with semantics.  I feel that there is more than just the entire universe... the entire universe only encompasses one side of duality.

> If one's consciousness were expanded to the maximum degree, our consciousness would be identical with all of space-time.

... and whatever else is beyond/coexists with space-time.  :smile:

> My mission is to mutate Christian doctrine into something meaningful and relevant to Entheogen Enthusiasts. 'Let those with eyes, see.'

If the words of John, Luke, Paul, and Mathew are the basis for Christianity, then the teachings are not for me.  There are some very enlightened words in those four books, but there is a lot of misleading filler as well.  Although I was raised in a Catholic family, I never felt touched by any of Jesus' teachings until I read the Gospel of Thomas.  I can only relate to perhaps 1/10 of the Gospel of Thomas, but that which matches my experiences sings strongly in my heart.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2932637 - 07/27/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Good post.. I have definitely thought of some of this stuff along the same lines. I've, for a while now, had my only little conclusion written in my head that said that the bible was "just another example" that people blew out of proportion. I think that the story the bible tells is supposed to metaphorically represent the same "message" as so many stories (hell, even modern day movies and books very often seem to follow the same metaphors) have done over the years.

I tend to think that the problem with most Christian denominations is that they take what the bible says too literally. It's foolish to think that something written so long ago SHOULD be taken literally in a day and age so different from the days when the story was written.

I think that the bible was an attempt to record an example of a "messiah", and to illustrate the point that anyone can be the messiah.

I know this isn't exactly what your post was trying to get at, but it's definitely in the same neighborhood.. haha.. I think.  :grin:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2932716 - 07/27/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for your response J.C. I have no intention to undermine the value of the existing Bible. I wish more to be added, despite the curse placed on anyone who attempts to do so at the end of Revelations. The scriptures point to the Truth; they illustrate the Truth they are not themselves the Truth. Paul NEVER would have dreamed that his letters to new churches were going to be considered holy writ next to the Torah and the Haftarah (Prophets).

I don't know about becoming a 'messiah' (Christ) in the sense of a leader, but to 'be in Christ,' to undergo 'theosis,' IS to become Christ[like].
Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2932766 - 07/27/04 03:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i have thought about this so much recently markos.  i love it how you combine religous doctrine with more openminded thoughts.

I remember a while ago you mentioned "only the fish don't know they're wet" and that stuck in my mind for a very long time.  because why have this experience if you are going to know the "real truth"  what good is the truth if you aren't going to work towards it. a being like that can realize and appreciate the full being of knowing all when it is first limited.  I think I've heard the term "veil of forgetfulness" before that also stuck in my mind. 

I think the idea (i dunno if this is what you are really presenting here) that we are here to experience ourselves in an infinite amount of ways is the best descrition of why we are here that I have heard.

indeed the connections you have put forth "(w)holiness" definately is a new spin on things that I'll have to think aabout in the coming months ahead.

thank you markos  :thumbup: :heart:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2932808 - 07/27/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think I was elaborate enough before.. let me reiterate:

My point was more that the concept of a Messiah has been completely mis-represented. We think of a Messiah as someone with super powers, that the average man does not possess.

I'm saying that I think a messiah is better described as "Someone who seems to be capable of feats the average individual does not think himself capable of."

My point is basically that to be christ-like is to be a messiah.

We are told that in order to be "saved" we must be christ-like. We must have our sins removed... but I don't think that Jesus dying on the cross is what makes our sins removed. (I mean.. think about it. If there's one part of the whole story that's really hard to understand/swallow, it's HOW his death so many years ago has an effect on us today..)

I think that our sins are removed by our own accord, by the act of acceptance of ourselves. Almost everyone has that "list".. or some people call it the "skeletons in our closets".. the things we've done wrong*, but we refuse to take responsibility for.

(* by "wrong", I mean by our own opinions, versus our own personal morals)

When someone has decided to empty the closet.. to do what they feel is necessary to make amends with THEMSELVES..

THEN they are free of sin.

I think that Jesus is mis-represented... or atleast not thought of in the right sense by the average Christian believer.

I think the WHOLE idea of Jesus being so special was supposed to be the very fact that he WASN'T special. Meaning, in other words, that we are all special and just as capable of being a "messiah".

Don't get me wrong, my point isn't to belittle Jesus, but quite the opposite: to make the point that every human being is capable of being as great a person as Jesus was.

Jesus represents you. He represents me. He represents anyone who is willing to lead by example and live a life that spreads love, despite what others might think. This is what he did. This is why people labeled him a messiah.

Just my 2 cents.. heh..


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: Seuss]
    #2932844 - 07/27/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for your interest.
Theologically speaking, the aspect of God that 'interfaces' with creation, and through which "all things were made that were made," is the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son. Beyond creation, and God's Presence in creation (God's Immanence), is the absolutely transcendent Godhead, with which creation (us included) is NOT co-extensive with.

You might remember from your catechism that while God the Son could 'experience' death, God the Father does not. The notion of God the Father dying on the cross was called Patripassionism, and was rejected since then, Who would be minding the store? However, centuries of theological debate questioned just what the nature of Jesus the Christ was, and the Orthodox doctrine is probably not the Truth of the matter, but the doctrine included the idea that Christ and Eternal Life could now only be mediated through the Eucharist which was controlled by the Apostolic priesthood back to Peter (well, probably back to Mary Magdalene or James, the brother of Jesus, but you know what Constantine did by re-writing history as the victor).

The Gospel of Thomas - a fully-realized eschatology, makes the priesthood, the Eucharist, the Church, the crucifixion, the 'Blood of the Lamb,' all superfluous for salvation. No need for any of it, the Church loses power. Constantine was baptized a Christian on his death bed, too weak to resist. He was a sun-worshipping pagan all his life but saw Christianity as the up-and-coming winning team, got behind it and unified Rome under his version of it. Constantine's version became the Bible - a version that made the Roman Catholic Church indespensible to salvation, and created the monster behind the Crusades, murder of the Knights Templar, Inquisition, persecution of the Jews, and of course brought to light recently, the history of child sexual abuse.

I don't blame you or any Catholic to reject and regurgitate Catholic doctrine. Consider my own plight: I was baptized in the RC Church of my own volition because I loved the mystics that I found in its fold. I was consequently rejected by my Jewish family. It was years before I began to discover that the bad outweighed the good in my estimation. The Gospel was originally told to me at about age 5 by my best friend whose family was Catholic. I was fascinated by pictures of Jesus' Sacred Heart. These things formed a deep foundation for later in life, so Truth was indirectly communicated via innocence, despite the evil.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2932921 - 07/27/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I concur with you Completely, and think you stated it beautifully with ONE important exception. We do not eliminate our own sins. I do NOT believe in Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin - Augustine must be the most brilliant RC ass-kisser in history. The doctrine of Original Sin, inherited spiritually-genetically from the mythological Eve, makes every human being 'depraved' from birth. Without Christ - as mediated by the Sacraments (another Catholic invention) we are doomed and damned from the womb. I DO believe in the Hebrew notion of an 'evil inclination' (Yetzer Hara) which we can choose to live out (like our Jungian Shadow) or not!

However, I also belive in God's Grace, which one does not have to imagine is a bestowal by an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky like Zeus in 'Clash of the Titans.' The Orthodox Church speaks of God's "Uncreated Energies," which we must be open to receive - tuned to those frequencies - higher chakras open (like the head, throat and heart centers that are ritually crossed before the reading of the Gospel in the RC Church. Never thought about the symbolism didja?)

The symbolism built into the crucifixion is of mythological proportion. The veil being rent from top to bottom [Heaven to Earth] that divided the Holy-of-Holies in the Temple was said to occur at the moment Jesus 'gave up the Ghost.' There was a 'rending' in the fabric of profane space-time, according to the late, great historian of religion Mircea Eliade. In that Moment, there manifested a "Superabundance of Reality,'' a 'portal' if you will that opens between God and humanity. That 'portal' is not a fixed locus, several feet above the ground where the original cross stood. That 'portal' can be located in the Heart Center of every human being through that contemplative method called Faith - Faith that the 'portal,' the "Door" that Christ spoke of being, is locatable 'within.' So, that Moment has transcended historical time, and continues to pour out the Uncreated Energies of God's Grace from within the Hearts of the Faithful. This is what cleanses our sins even Here and Now. "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth within me." Contemplate THIS inner Point with eyes closed next time you're Entheogenically Energized.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2932959 - 07/27/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you kaiowas.

We are here to increasingly identify with That which is Eternal, namely Compassion [Biblical "Agape" or altruistic love]. The rest of who and what we are is annihilated. Only our Love is Eternal, since "God is love," hence the urgency to love, to be loving, to become love [God]. Our [Eternal] Life depends upon this.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2933091 - 07/27/04 04:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

While I acknowledge and agree that, in a way our sins are removed by a means other than our own (in a sense it is as simple as letting them go, and they are washed away..) at the same time I have a hard time buying into the logic you've discussed.. my problem with it is, how can you label the source of the uncreated energies? This is akin to defining the source of all things.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while I DO agree that some form of positive energy flows from the hearts of the faithful, (because I have seen evidence of it in the form of compassion) I don't see any more reason to put stock in the explanation you've given than I put in any other explanation that's been given to me over the years of "why things are the way they are".


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2933209 - 07/27/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It's a personal choice. It's a method. It's a way into The Way. I am given to inner-directed language and inner-directed techniques like those of the Orthodox Hesychasts, of which my post is reflective. I begin with simplification of mental contents, arrive at one-pointedness (as I learned from Yoga), and eventually, that Point, that Center of Consciousness opens up into the Reality of an 'Infinitely expanding sphere, whose Center is Everywhere and whose Boundary is Nowhere.

I choose to attribute Infinite Meaning to Life, which Means that every point in space-time emerges from an Infinite and Eternal Infrastructure. So I isolate one single dimensionless point - the Jewel in the Lotus of my Heart - and I put my awareness into It. It is method, not explanation of "why things are the way they are." It has something to do with my Highest Entheogenic Experiences, something to do with Upanishads, Yoga, Vajrayana, Hesychasm and hence Christianity. It is the Innermost psychospiritual life of my Symbolic Life, my 'manna from Heaven.' When I am Centered, miracles occur, synchronicities abound, belief becomes realized, fulfillment deepens. What more can I say?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2933223 - 07/27/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I had read that the Jesus myth pre-dates Christianity (different names, different locations, same basic story).


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2933320 - 07/27/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Fellas. There are no new heresies.

If two people disagree about something then there are only two possibilities concerning the truth: both are wrong, or one is right and the other is wrong.

The orthodox view of Christ as BOTH true God and true man was accepted because its the only way anything Jesus teaches makes sense.

There are two orders of being: the eternal immaterial order, and the one which exists inside space and time.

In order for rational animals to transcend the limits of their temporal/material nature, and achieve "eternal life", it is necessary for there to be some bridge, some point which is in both spheres of reality simultaneously.

That bridge is Jesus Christ, true God and true Man.

Thats why Jesus says somewhere "there is no way to the father except through me" (paraphrasing)

Any attempt to define Jesus as something less than true God and True Man denies this connection between the eternal and material realms of being and renders Him no longer the messiah.


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2933371 - 07/27/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think the WHOLE idea of Jesus being so special was supposed to be the very fact that he WASN'T special. Meaning, in other words, that we are all special and just as capable of being a "messiah".

"..and greater works than these shall you do, because I go unto my Father." -Jesus John 14:12

I always found it strange Jesus was called the only begotten son of god, but those who quote that say we are all children of god. If you are a male and a child of god aren't you a son of god??


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2933527 - 07/27/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

No more needs to be said.. that was the PERFECT answer.

I agree wholeheartedly with you now. We were having a bit of mis-communication as to what the point of the thread was, is all.

Peace and love, my friend.  :thumbup:

edit: To specify, this is the part that made it clear to me where we had miscommunicated: "It's a personal choice. It's a method. It's a way into The Way."

I can 100% relate to that. I have my own ways into The Way, and they just happen to be different means to the same end.

See, I had a hard time originally interpretting the point of your post.. I thought you were simply saying "No no no, it's not THAT way.. it's THIS way.." but actually you were simply saying "It's this way for me, but it is different for everyone" :smile: Which I agree with very much.  :grin:


Edited by JacquesCousteau (07/27/04 06:59 PM)


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: zorbman]
    #2933535 - 07/27/04 06:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:


"..and greater works than these shall you do, because I go unto my Father."  -Jesus  John 14:12

I always found it strange Jesus was called the only begotten son of god, but those who quote that say we are all children of god. If you are a male and a child of god aren't you a son of god??




Yes.  :smile:


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: zorbman]
    #2933544 - 07/27/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's pretty much my point, yeah.. that we're all the sons of god if we choose to be...


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2933555 - 07/27/04 07:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

as ive understood from you were saying JacquesCousteau - I don't believe that we become messiahs, but we do become christ-like and able to perform miracles such as he did


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2933561 - 07/27/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If we become christ-like to the point of being able to perform miracles as he did, how does that NOT make us a messiah?

Or are you just saying that, semantically speaking, this does not align with the definition of a Messiah as given in webster's?

Because I tend to redefine words at will.. just means we have two different opinions of what the word "messiah" means, is all.


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Re: Jesus - Christ by Pre-Existence or by Adoption? [Re: shroomydan]
    #2933784 - 07/27/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Uh, yup.


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