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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 11 years, 3 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934560 - 07/27/04 10:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
No one here seems to understand what adult stem cells are...they come from adults, not embryos. Where's the moral controversy in that? Why no funding for that? Any Bush fans care to explain?




I think you were confused by what i said. I think stem cell research should be allowed.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935068 - 07/27/04 11:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
You made a valid point. But I'm confident that additional funding provided by the gov't would bring the goals faster. And the govt's involvement might even promote collaboration of efforts.



Tough. The government has no business getting involved in such a thing. Now how about you dig deep and donate some of your own money to this research instead of crying to your government to do it with other people's money?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935290 - 07/28/04 12:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Instead, I get a few lame nit-picking comments that walk around the topic of this thread.




Welcome to PA&L--starring the libertarians! :smile:

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935481 - 07/28/04 03:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it states "[to] promote the general welfare [of the people]."


It says no such thing.

``We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.''

Where do you see the words "of the people"?

Answer: You don't. The words refer to looking out for the country and defending it.


Quote:

Isn't it safe to say that health falls under general welfare?



No.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/28/04 03:42 AM)

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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935500 - 07/28/04 04:28 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Stem Cell research is a non-issue that is lagging in progression and potential because of religious fundamentalists.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2935745 - 07/28/04 09:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The words refer to looking out for the country and defending it.





No, these words refer to defending it:
Quote:

provide for the common Defense




If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2935756 - 07/28/04 09:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Sigh...

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

James Madison, 1751 ? 1836
4th President of the United States
?Father? of the Constitution

When are you people going to learn? What would be the point of Article 1 Section 8, which specifically enumerates the functions of congress, if the framers meant the two words 'general welfare' to allow anything and everything our altruistic and magnanimous politicians desire. Wake up! The Constitution's PURPOSE is to define our VERY LIMITED federal government. You are nothing short of insane if you think the founding fathers wanted to give the federal government carte blanche to do whatever it is they want. That is the *EXACT OPPOSITE* of what they wanted the federal government to do.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2935819 - 07/28/04 09:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Sigh...

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

James Madison, 1751 ? 1836
4th President of the United States
?Father? of the Constitution





Its not like he wrote the constitution himself :
Quote:

Madison made a major contribution to the ratification of the Constitution by writing, with Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, the Federalist essays. In later years, when he was referred to as the "Father of the Constitution," Madison protested that the document was not "the off-spring of a single brain," but "the work of many heads and many hands."clicky





This stance of Madison's was not a forgone conclusion for all of the founders. In fact, Jefferson cited the issue as "the only landmark which now divides the federalists from the republicans"

Quote:

After winning independence, our founders tried to translate the doctrine of man's rights into legal form. The Constitution they created included some compromises, one of which gives Congress the power to provide for the "general Welfare of the United States."

The compromise postponed settling an ongoing debate: How exactly does Congress provide for the general welfare? Two lines formed: one behind Jefferson, who wanted government to serve as "a guardian of fair play," the other behind Hamilton, who wanted government to direct our play.clicky(note:


this article is behind the Jefferson movement, yet it still acknowledges that those words were a deliberate compromise and its interpretation was a source of debate from the very start)

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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935820 - 07/28/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

This issue is so rediculous it hardly merits the time wasted.Technology has progreesed to the point that stem cells can be cultured from ones own tissue(ie; NO FETUSES!)which completely deflates the "ethical" issue.So lets see who profits from the diseases which stem cells may cure(completly w/o further drugs or treatment=loss of income)Drug companies?With the advent of using adult stem cells cultured from the future recipient of treatment it is hardly more than a skin graft.Science has many flaws but harvesting fetuses is not generaly one of them.So far the republicans have put forth gay marriage as a great threat and falsly stated that fetuses would be "harvested" for stem cells.They are not stupid and have to knw that stem cell research must eventually be focused on endogenous cells in order to prevent chance of rejection.
I guess when a political party has fucked up the country this badly they'll use any diversion from the real problems created in the last three yrs.
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2935836 - 07/28/04 10:05 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'd appreciate you also responding to this part of my post:

Quote:

When are you people going to learn? What would be the point of Article 1 Section 8, which specifically enumerates the functions of congress, if the framers meant the two words 'general welfare' to allow anything and everything our altruistic and magnanimous politicians desire.




Thanks.

ps. Hamilton was a mercantalist.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2935995 - 07/28/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

And I'd appreciate you responding to this part of my post:

Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?




context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2936031 - 07/28/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?



pre?am?ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prmbl, pr-m-)
n.
A preliminary statement, especially the introduction to a formal document that serves to explain its purpose.

I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. 'Promotion of the general welfare' in the preamble is a phrase used to vaguely describe some of what the federal government will be doing under the constitution. I still stand strongly by Madison's quote.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2936121 - 07/28/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

why is everyone arguing over what a bunch of dead people wrote?

here is a news flash:

when the constitution was written there were no automobiles, no internet, no television, no radio, no air conditioning, and no nuclear weapons, among other things. The constitution and the government which is based upon it have become obsolete.

its time to make adjustments for situational contingencies.

I know what you're saying, viaggo, and I agree with you. But you are never going to convince these selfish libertarian kindergarteners to share with the other children. They will continue to use dead men's words and inapplicable moral principles to justify their own isolation from society.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936154 - 07/28/04 12:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
why is everyone arguing over what a bunch of dead people wrote?



Duh! The constitution is the charter of the federal government. We discuss their writings because they are applicable to the topic at hand. Look at the title of this forum. How can this concept escape someone who's as brilliant as you think you are?

Quote:

when the constitution was written there were no automobiles, no internet, no television, no radio, no air conditioning, and no nuclear weapons, among other things.



Irrelevant. The underlying principles are still the same. The constituion also was designed to be modified.

Quote:

The constitution and the government which is based upon it have become obsolete.



Why, because you say so. Brilliant argument.

Quote:

its time to make adjustments for situational contingencies.



Ever heard of amendments? Or did you not teach yourself that concept?

Quote:

I know what you're saying, viaggo, and I agree with you. But you are never going to convince these selfish libertarian kindergarteners to share with the other children.



Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?

Quote:

They will continue to use dead men's words and inapplicable moral principles to justify their own isolation from society.



Words have meanings (I know, you didn't teach yourself this concept either). Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable? Because you say so? Because they conflict with some people's desire to force others to pay for their wishes?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936161 - 07/28/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

We all make good points.  But I think the obvious key is that legislation doesn't evolve as quickly as the times.  Issues like these do trigger it though :smile:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2936233 - 07/28/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Duh! The constitution is the charter of the federal government. We discuss their writings because they are applicable to the topic at hand. Look at the title of this forum. How can this concept escape someone who's as brilliant as you think you are?





dude, the constitution is just words on a piece of paper with a bunch of dead people's signatures on it. It has no bearing upon reality. The People's Republic of China has a beautifully written, eloquent constitution which is actually very similar to ours. Words are just words.

Quote:

Irrelevant. The underlying principles are still the same.




Irrelevant? says you. I think the technological advances the human race has made in the last 200 years are highly relevant to the process of government.

and principles are just words in our heads which have nothing to do with objective reality.

Quote:

Ever heard of amendments?




How many new amendments do we need right now? When is the last time one has been passed? The constitution is not flexible enough. it may have been able to keep up with horses, but it won't keep up with automobiles. Technology has left our government behind.

Quote:

Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?





wow, did you pull that directly out of Ayn Rand? Thats so original, dude. Do you write your own material? Because thats just so fresh, man. I've never heard that before.

tell me why it isnt selfish to lead a decadent lifestyle while your fellow humans are suffering because you refuse to help them?

Quote:

Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable?




because they would only work if the world was a lot simpler. The world isn't getting more simple; its getting more complex. Your rigid adherence to obsolete values is a sandcastle which will soon be swept away with the tides.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936382 - 07/28/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
... principles are just words in our heads which have nothing to do with objective reality.



Wrong, principles do have a bearing on reality, they are in fact derived from reality.

Quote:

Technology has left our government behind.



So are you proposing anarchy?

Quote:

Quote:

Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?





wow, did you pull that directly out of Ayn Rand?



Care to answer the question instead of offering inane attempts at an insult? Why is it selfish to refuse to support the taking other people's earnings under color of authority?

Quote:

tell me why it isnt selfish to lead a decadent lifestyle while your fellow humans are suffering because you refuse to help them?



Sorry, I don't do straw men. I am not promoting a decadent lifestyle (whatever your mind may imagine that is), nor am I promoting selfishness (though if a person chooses to be selfish, that is none of my business as long as he is not aggressing against others). I think that it is a good thing for people to voluntarily support medical research and wholeheartedly endorse this.

Quote:

Quote:

Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable?




because they would only work if the world was a lot simpler.



Bullshit. Why don't you tell the truth and say that moral principles get in the way of your whims and be done with it. At least that would be honest. Admit that you look upon the individual as a public resource to be harnessed for the cause du jour, and that there is no theoretical end to what burdens you are willing to place upon your fellow man in the name of 'the greater good.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2936754 - 07/28/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?



pre?am?ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prmbl, pr-m-)
n.
A preliminary statement, especially the introduction to a formal document that serves to explain its purpose.

I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. 'Promotion of the general welfare' in the preamble is a phrase used to vaguely describe some of what the federal government will be doing under the constitution. I still stand strongly by Madison's quote.




Holy shit, you go on and on about this and it sounds like you haven't even read the fucking constitution?!?

Notice:


Preamble:
Quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




versus

Article I Section VIII:
Quote:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;




I'd be embarrassed if I were you, acting like you know what the founders meant by each single clause, it sounds more like you haven't even bothered to read your precious Constitution, specifically the part we've been discussing (or at least the part i've been discussing). CLASSIC libertarian parroting. Formulate your own opinions for christ sake before you go on parroting them like they were fucking gospel.

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Anonymous

Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2936779 - 07/28/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

if you don't take them in context with the rest of the document, the words "general welfare" can be used as a justification for just about anything the federal government decides to do. the drug war and patriot act come to mind.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: ]
    #2936815 - 07/28/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I oppose the drug war not as much on a constitutional basis, but because i think it does far more harm than good in so, so many ways.

i would say 'provide for the common defense' leads to the patriot act more than 'general welfare'.

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