Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2933197 - 07/27/04 03:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
I am opposed to initiating force against others to pay for something which they find morally repugnant.



But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.  Several of us found certain wars morally repugnant, yet they were funded.  But my true question is what is morally repugnant about ASC research?  Anyone here know?  C'mon, I'm sure we can come up with at least one half-ass reason...

EDIT:  Vote Kerry :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (07/27/04 03:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2933208 - 07/27/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blastocyst is the term I was looking for, either was its a possible human life your developing then aborting.




wait, I thought a big source of these cells has had them frozen for nearly a decade and is planning on tossing them out anyway?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933211 - 07/27/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.



So? The occurrence of an injustice is no argument for the injustice. BTW, the U.S. is not a democracy.

** edit, spelling **


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/27/04 03:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: trendal]
    #2933258 - 07/27/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If I turn down an opportunity for sex, then am I guilty of 'aborting' the child that could have come out of said act?




Every sperm is sacred! Every sperm is great! When a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!

:smirk:



Sure looks like a sperm to me.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2933268 - 07/27/04 03:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's true, the U.S. is not a democracy. In the current American gov't structure, as well as in a true democracy, not everyone gets their special interests satisfied.

I just don't see any controversy with ASC research, and with it's medical potential to treat or cure virtually every ailment, it seems foolish for our gov't to choose otherwise. Hmm...this administration makes a lot of foolish decisions anyway. I shouldn't be so surprised. Vote Kerry.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933287 - 07/27/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In the current American gov't structure



It never was a democracy, nor was it intended to be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933794 - 07/27/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Reagan scheduled to speak on the stem cell research issue at 10 o'clock.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933835 - 07/27/04 06:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.  Several of us found certain wars morally repugnant, yet they were funded.



And as we all know, two wrongs make a right. :smirk:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #2933912 - 07/27/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I know.  I was demonstrating that all we citizens can do to lobby for our interests is fight fire with fire.  There is no right way of doing this when people disagree.  We have millions of humans suffering with disease and injury that could benefit from the results of this research.  It could very likely be the holy grail of medicine.

Would the typical anti-stem cell research supporter change their opinion if human embryos were not used?  Well, tah-dah...adult stem cells.  No one has yet to provide a reason of why ASC research should not be funded.  Instead, I get a few lame nit-picking comments that walk around the topic of this thread.

Vote Kerry  :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933999 - 07/27/04 07:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

viaggio writes:

We have millions of humans suffering with disease and injury that could benefit from the results of this research. It could very likely be the holy grail of medicine.

If true, no federal funding is required. Private industry has sunk billions and billions of dollars into a lot less promising medical research projects than stem cells. You can bet your bootie dozens -- if not hundreds -- of private firms as well as medical schools and universities are already working full tilt boogie on this line of research. It's not like everyone's sitting around with their thumbs up their bums waiting for Bush to chunk a billion or two into the pot so they can charge out of the starting gate.

Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?
pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934042 - 07/27/04 07:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?



Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Bush to chunk a billion or two into the pot...



Money makes the world go round, my friend.  If the research is lucrative, it will attract the greatest minds and we wil reach our goal much, much faster.

EDIT:  Vote Kerry  :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (07/27/04 07:41 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934055 - 07/27/04 07:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Just a reminder that Reagan scheduled to speak on the stem cell research issue at 10 o'clock at DNC.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934061 - 07/27/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?



He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.

It's a lot easier to be generous when the money is not your own. I say anyone interested in funding stem cell research should put up their own money or shut up, otherwise they're doing nothing but looking for another free ride, not willing to make the personal sacrifices of opening up their own wallets. There are many worthy causes for individuals to donate to in the world, that someone should pick one as thier favorite is no argument for their preferences to be a claim on the hours of my labor, the portion of my life spent creating the wealth they wish to expropriate.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2934205 - 07/27/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.



Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.  I'm sure you realize that, you're one of our wiser members.  I'm not asking for our taxes to fund something selfish and exclusive.  The results of this research will benefit everyone, not just Americans, but across the world.  It will help provide something too many people take for granted...health.

It is true...I have my own interests.  I suffer with a rare neurological condition that has no cure or treatment.  I'm sure we all know someone, a friend or relative, with similar circumstances.  The science to improve health is waiting.  Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving?  Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.

Vote for ESC Research in November :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934279 - 07/27/04 08:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
Quote:

Evolving said:
He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.



Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.



The average American pays more in taxes than medieval serfs had to give up. At what point is a portion of a man's livelihood no longer a 'small percentage,' 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%? How much will you and all others who wish to live at the expense of your fellow man take until you are satisfied? When is it too much? Never?

Quote:

Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?



Is your strength of conviction so weak that you are unable to reach into your own pocket? Is your imagination so feeble that you cannot fathom a way to fund what you feel is a worthy cause without sending agents of the state to tax the productive efforts of your fellow man? If it is such a great idea, why not try persuasion? Why is the first impulse of so many to use force against their fellow man? By what right do you make a claim upon the life of another to fund your preferred charities? At what point will it be enough? Why is your favorite charity more deserving of funds than those of the people you propose to take the money from? What other things will go unfunded because the government has expropriated wealth for your pet projects, leaving less disposable income to be directed towards what others may feel are more deserving enterprises?

Quote:

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving?



An appropriate term.

Quote:

Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.



Really? Who is wanting to take more and more from people he does not know by force? Who thinks that he knows best how to spend other people's earnings? Not I.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934284 - 07/27/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It is true...I have my own interests. I suffer with a rare neurological condition that has no cure or treatment. I'm sure we all know someone, a friend or relative, with similar circumstances.



Let me start out by saying I'm very sorry to hear that and I wish you nothing but the best.

Quote:

Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.



Relative to what? I believe taxes are an INSANELY large percentage of every citizens' income relative to what it should be under the limited and constitutional government we were supposed to have.

Quote:

I'm not asking for our taxes to fund something selfish and exclusive.



Says you.

Quote:

The results of this research will benefit everyone, not just Americans, but across the world.



Perhaps they would...

Quote:

It will help provide something too many people take for granted...health.




It is not the job of the federal government to tell people what and what not to take for granted.

Quote:

science to improve health is waiting.



Then let the free market work. If profit is there, and it WILL be there, then private industry will put the effort into developing this, without a doubt.

Quote:

Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?




We do not live in a social democracy(yet...). We are supposed to be living in a Constitutionally Limited Republic. My tax dollars should be funding what government is SUPPOSED to be doing, that is securing my rights.

Quote:

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving? Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.




I don't find his position selfish. I find it rational, logical, and most importantly, constitutional. It is truly not fair to force the evangelical Christian(no matter how much you or I may disagree with him) to fund something like this that he finds abhorrent.

Quote:

Vote for ESC Research in November



...Please don't.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934287 - 07/27/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
What's the big whoop?



For millions upon millions of sufferers, ESC research is there only hope. Does that qualify as a big whoop, pinky? Maybe I didn't answer that question well enough. I wonder what these hopefuls would think, how they would feel if you asked them "what's the big whoop?"


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2934382 - 07/27/04 09:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Why is the first impulse of so many to use force against their fellow man?



More spinning? I am not purposing the idea of malicious acts on my fellow man. The gov't is here to serve us, and this is a perfect opportunity for it to do so. In the preamble it states "[to] promote the general welfare [of the people]." Isn't it safe to say that health falls under general welfare?

Quote:

Why is your favorite charity more deserving of funds than those of the people you propose to take the money from? What other things will go unfunded because the government has expropriated wealth for your pet projects...



Ask the men who balance the budget. I don't hold the funds, I simply plead my case to the officers in hopes it will persuade them, just as I'm sure someone lobbies for something else: fire with fire. I am not purposing further taxing. The current budget could be rebalanced. It's true, not everything can be funded. So I suppose it's a matter of priorities and persuasion.

Quote:

By what right do you make a claim upon the life of another to fund your preferred charities?



I am simply exercising my right to lobby for issues that hit close to home. The structure of our gov't is what dictates where funds go.

Quote:

Who is wanting to take more and more from people he does not know by force? Who thinks that he knows best how to spend other people's earnings? Not I.



And not I. I merely offer my opinion, which is my right, on how the gov't should work for us.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934430 - 07/27/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

viaggio writes:

For millions upon millions of sufferers, ESC research is there only hope. Does that qualify as a big whoop, pinky? Maybe I didn't answer that question well enough. I wonder what these hopefuls would think, how they would feel if you asked them "what's the big whoop?"

Classic Libbie technique -- appeal to emotion. No need to actually think things through, just go with your feelings. Note that I am not accusing you of being a Libbie, just of using the standard Libbie dodge.

Think about this for maybe five minutes. I'll wait till you're done......

Okay. By now you will have seen that the greedy scumsucking profit-crazed capitalists in the rapacious pharmaceutical industry have grasped the potential in stem cell research for profits that potentially dwarf anything they have yet seen. Being the heartless and opportunistic wretches they are, they are proceeding at full bore to investigate every possible avenue which might be opened to them due to discoveries revolving around stem cells.

Nothing government could possibly do will make discoveries any more likely than the fact that a pack of greedhead pharmacos are all racing to be the first ones to cure X, Y and Z condition. Bet on it. Not only is government funding not desirable, it is completely unnecessary.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934498 - 07/27/04 09:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You made a valid point.  But I'm confident that additional funding provided by the gov't would bring the goals faster.  And the govt's involvement might even promote collaboration of efforts.

Oh, and your Mom's a Libbie  :razz: (JK) :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Stem Cell Research
( 1 2 3 all )
silversoul7 3,647 50 11/03/04 09:08 AM
by Viaggio
* ron regan jr's stem cell speech
( 1 2 3 all )
KingOftheThing 3,268 55 08/11/04 10:28 PM
by Phred
* How can Kerry win the debates...
( 1 2 3 all )
Phred 3,026 46 10/03/04 10:18 PM
by Rono
* Would you vote for kerry if he wasn't running against bush? Lazerouth 1,174 12 08/16/04 02:49 PM
by DigitalDuality
* Bush voters: Why should I vote for Bush? EDIT
( 1 2 all )
monoamine 2,204 39 09/29/04 10:29 PM
by Phred
* John Kerry's Speech
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Zahid 5,101 61 07/31/04 04:53 PM
by Ancalagon
* House Bans Coloning of Human Cells
( 1 2 all )
PotSmokinHippie 4,085 21 08/04/01 09:36 AM
by Phred
* Kerry picks Edwards!!!! KingOftheThing 537 5 07/06/04 06:46 PM
by silversoul7

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,546 topic views. 3 members, 4 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.