Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Kerry and Stem Cell Research
    #2930623 - 07/26/04 11:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

A friend of mine mentioned that he saw Kerry and his wife on Larry King Live.  The cadidate explained that if elected, he planned to promote federal funding for stem cell research.  Is this true?  If so...vote for him :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2930662 - 07/26/04 11:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Im torn on the issue, on fetal stem cells that is. I dont know if mass production of cells via artificial insemination is exactly a good thing, with my morales that is.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2930675 - 07/26/04 11:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

A single issue to elect Frankenstein's monster on? No way. Although I am not opposed to stem cell research, I am opposed to spending the money of people who are opposed to it on the research. Kerry is little more than George Bush lite?. A little less filling, but still political piss water.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2930891 - 07/27/04 12:06 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

evolving, beautiful way to see it, never thought of something like that. Which means no federal or state funding for stem cell research, I can oppose it and have nothing to do with it that way.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2931151 - 07/27/04 01:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Redo, most stem cells actually come from blastocysts, not fetuses. A blastocyst is a microscopic beginning stage of a human embryo. But stem cells also come from adults.

Artificial insemination wouldn't really be considered as an avenue to generate more stem cells. Any tissues containing stem cells such as fetuses are a donated in the name of science instead of leaving it to waste. Typically, the cells are "grown" and/or cloned in a lab following a harvest.

Evolving, isn't tax payers' money spent on several agendas that not everyone favors? Such as funding war? Also, I'm curious...what do you mean by Kerry is Bush lite?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (07/27/04 08:27 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2931158 - 07/27/04 01:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

blastocyst is the term I was looking for, either was its a possible human life your developing then aborting.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,291
Loc: texas
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2931259 - 07/27/04 02:07 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

listen to "The Great Debate" by Dream Theatre


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2931365 - 07/27/04 03:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

yeah makeing some cells is a petrie dish is so horible who could support it. its a sin isnt it. who cares if it would cure alements and save millions fuck them i have my retarded republican manufactured morals to worry about

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2931750 - 07/27/04 08:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Redo, the debate is when does life begin? Is it the opposite of when life ends, when no brain activity is measured? The potential for human life is found in every cell in our body--I shed thousands of skin cells each day...should I cherish each one as if it had a soul?

But beyond that never ending controversy, there is also adult stem cell research to fund. Why won't Bush consider that method?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2931898 - 07/27/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

because it would be an inroad to harvesting stems cells
from precious babies by stealing them from their mother's
womb and chopping them up in large thresher machines
and then vaccuuming it out and spraying it all over the holy
bible.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2932043 - 07/27/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
yeah makeing some cells is a petrie dish is so horible who could support it. its a sin isnt it. who cares if it would cure alements and save millions fuck them i have my retarded republican manufactured morals to worry about




For the first time ever i am completely agreeing with you. Stem cell research is a step further into the beginning of the end.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2932054 - 07/27/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
blastocyst is the term I was looking for, either was its a possible human life your developing then aborting.




where do you draw the line?

If I turn down an opportunity for sex, then am I guilty of 'aborting' the child that could have come out of said act?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: d33p]
    #2932060 - 07/27/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No one here seems to understand what adult stem cells are...they come from adults, not embryos. Where's the moral controversy in that? Why no funding for that? Any Bush fans care to explain?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2932100 - 07/27/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

What's to explain? Bush isn't saying no one can do stem cell research, adult or otherwise. Bush is just saying the US federal government won't fund it. There's tons of stuff the US government doesn't fund (unfortunately not enough). What's the big whoop?

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2932128 - 07/27/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

My question is "why?" As in, what are his reasons, his justifications for denying federal funding?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2932138 - 07/27/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It doesn't matter. At all. Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution. The only thing that mentions scientific innovations in that passage has to do with patents and copyrights. This is not the territory of the federal government.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2932158 - 07/27/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I understand that technically there doesn't have to be reasons for denying funding, but I was curious if anyone knew what Bush's reasons might be? I understand he offered very limited ESC research funding based on the controversy, but what controversy arises with ASC research? Has anyone heard his opinion on that matter?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2932541 - 07/27/04 12:56 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

you might feel different about stem cells when u catch a disease they could have cured. or your children are dying of something that could have been cured... bush is against stem cells on religous grounds, and since jesus is made up bullshit no reason to stifle science.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #2932685 - 07/27/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I can promise you I won't. Like I said, I am not opposed to stem cell research. However, I am opposed to initiating force against others to pay for something which they find morally repugnant. It is not stifling science by allowing others to live by their beliefs, by not forcing my wishes upon them - it is a matter of principle. Is it so hard to understand that some people have principles?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletrendalM
Jâ™ 
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2932942 - 07/27/04 02:30 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If I turn down an opportunity for sex, then am I guilty of 'aborting' the child that could have come out of said act?




Every sperm is sacred! Every sperm is great! When a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!

:smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2933197 - 07/27/04 03:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
I am opposed to initiating force against others to pay for something which they find morally repugnant.



But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.  Several of us found certain wars morally repugnant, yet they were funded.  But my true question is what is morally repugnant about ASC research?  Anyone here know?  C'mon, I'm sure we can come up with at least one half-ass reason...

EDIT:  Vote Kerry :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (07/27/04 03:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Redo]
    #2933208 - 07/27/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blastocyst is the term I was looking for, either was its a possible human life your developing then aborting.




wait, I thought a big source of these cells has had them frozen for nearly a decade and is planning on tossing them out anyway?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933211 - 07/27/04 03:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.



So? The occurrence of an injustice is no argument for the injustice. BTW, the U.S. is not a democracy.

** edit, spelling **


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/27/04 03:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: trendal]
    #2933258 - 07/27/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If I turn down an opportunity for sex, then am I guilty of 'aborting' the child that could have come out of said act?




Every sperm is sacred! Every sperm is great! When a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!

:smirk:



Sure looks like a sperm to me.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2933268 - 07/27/04 03:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It's true, the U.S. is not a democracy. In the current American gov't structure, as well as in a true democracy, not everyone gets their special interests satisfied.

I just don't see any controversy with ASC research, and with it's medical potential to treat or cure virtually every ailment, it seems foolish for our gov't to choose otherwise. Hmm...this administration makes a lot of foolish decisions anyway. I shouldn't be so surprised. Vote Kerry.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933287 - 07/27/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

In the current American gov't structure



It never was a democracy, nor was it intended to be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933794 - 07/27/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Reagan scheduled to speak on the stem cell research issue at 10 o'clock.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933835 - 07/27/04 06:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
But this is a frequent occurence with democracy.  Several of us found certain wars morally repugnant, yet they were funded.



And as we all know, two wrongs make a right. :smirk:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: silversoul7]
    #2933912 - 07/27/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I know.  I was demonstrating that all we citizens can do to lobby for our interests is fight fire with fire.  There is no right way of doing this when people disagree.  We have millions of humans suffering with disease and injury that could benefit from the results of this research.  It could very likely be the holy grail of medicine.

Would the typical anti-stem cell research supporter change their opinion if human embryos were not used?  Well, tah-dah...adult stem cells.  No one has yet to provide a reason of why ASC research should not be funded.  Instead, I get a few lame nit-picking comments that walk around the topic of this thread.

Vote Kerry  :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2933999 - 07/27/04 07:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

viaggio writes:

We have millions of humans suffering with disease and injury that could benefit from the results of this research. It could very likely be the holy grail of medicine.

If true, no federal funding is required. Private industry has sunk billions and billions of dollars into a lot less promising medical research projects than stem cells. You can bet your bootie dozens -- if not hundreds -- of private firms as well as medical schools and universities are already working full tilt boogie on this line of research. It's not like everyone's sitting around with their thumbs up their bums waiting for Bush to chunk a billion or two into the pot so they can charge out of the starting gate.

Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?
pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934042 - 07/27/04 07:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?



Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Bush to chunk a billion or two into the pot...



Money makes the world go round, my friend.  If the research is lucrative, it will attract the greatest minds and we wil reach our goal much, much faster.

EDIT:  Vote Kerry  :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (07/27/04 07:41 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934055 - 07/27/04 07:44 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Just a reminder that Reagan scheduled to speak on the stem cell research issue at 10 o'clock at DNC.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934061 - 07/27/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Just what exactly do you feel is the advantage of getting government involved?



He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.

It's a lot easier to be generous when the money is not your own. I say anyone interested in funding stem cell research should put up their own money or shut up, otherwise they're doing nothing but looking for another free ride, not willing to make the personal sacrifices of opening up their own wallets. There are many worthy causes for individuals to donate to in the world, that someone should pick one as thier favorite is no argument for their preferences to be a claim on the hours of my labor, the portion of my life spent creating the wealth they wish to expropriate.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2934205 - 07/27/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.



Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.  I'm sure you realize that, you're one of our wiser members.  I'm not asking for our taxes to fund something selfish and exclusive.  The results of this research will benefit everyone, not just Americans, but across the world.  It will help provide something too many people take for granted...health.

It is true...I have my own interests.  I suffer with a rare neurological condition that has no cure or treatment.  I'm sure we all know someone, a friend or relative, with similar circumstances.  The science to improve health is waiting.  Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving?  Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.

Vote for ESC Research in November :thumbup:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934279 - 07/27/04 08:51 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
Quote:

Evolving said:
He can feel good about himself at the expense of others.



Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.



The average American pays more in taxes than medieval serfs had to give up. At what point is a portion of a man's livelihood no longer a 'small percentage,' 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%? How much will you and all others who wish to live at the expense of your fellow man take until you are satisfied? When is it too much? Never?

Quote:

Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?



Is your strength of conviction so weak that you are unable to reach into your own pocket? Is your imagination so feeble that you cannot fathom a way to fund what you feel is a worthy cause without sending agents of the state to tax the productive efforts of your fellow man? If it is such a great idea, why not try persuasion? Why is the first impulse of so many to use force against their fellow man? By what right do you make a claim upon the life of another to fund your preferred charities? At what point will it be enough? Why is your favorite charity more deserving of funds than those of the people you propose to take the money from? What other things will go unfunded because the government has expropriated wealth for your pet projects, leaving less disposable income to be directed towards what others may feel are more deserving enterprises?

Quote:

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving?



An appropriate term.

Quote:

Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.



Really? Who is wanting to take more and more from people he does not know by force? Who thinks that he knows best how to spend other people's earnings? Not I.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934284 - 07/27/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It is true...I have my own interests. I suffer with a rare neurological condition that has no cure or treatment. I'm sure we all know someone, a friend or relative, with similar circumstances.



Let me start out by saying I'm very sorry to hear that and I wish you nothing but the best.

Quote:

Taxes are small percentages of every citizens' income, including my own.



Relative to what? I believe taxes are an INSANELY large percentage of every citizens' income relative to what it should be under the limited and constitutional government we were supposed to have.

Quote:

I'm not asking for our taxes to fund something selfish and exclusive.



Says you.

Quote:

The results of this research will benefit everyone, not just Americans, but across the world.



Perhaps they would...

Quote:

It will help provide something too many people take for granted...health.




It is not the job of the federal government to tell people what and what not to take for granted.

Quote:

science to improve health is waiting.



Then let the free market work. If profit is there, and it WILL be there, then private industry will put the effort into developing this, without a doubt.

Quote:

Is the fraction of your income, the taxes you send to the gov't, too good to be used to fund something that offers so much to everyone?




We do not live in a social democracy(yet...). We are supposed to be living in a Constitutionally Limited Republic. My tax dollars should be funding what government is SUPPOSED to be doing, that is securing my rights.

Quote:

Expropriate your wealth, Evolving? Despite the nasty spin of selfishness you've attempted to describe this issue with, it is you who comes across as selfish, my friend.




I don't find his position selfish. I find it rational, logical, and most importantly, constitutional. It is truly not fair to force the evangelical Christian(no matter how much you or I may disagree with him) to fund something like this that he finds abhorrent.

Quote:

Vote for ESC Research in November



...Please don't.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934287 - 07/27/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
What's the big whoop?



For millions upon millions of sufferers, ESC research is there only hope. Does that qualify as a big whoop, pinky? Maybe I didn't answer that question well enough. I wonder what these hopefuls would think, how they would feel if you asked them "what's the big whoop?"


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2934382 - 07/27/04 09:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Why is the first impulse of so many to use force against their fellow man?



More spinning? I am not purposing the idea of malicious acts on my fellow man. The gov't is here to serve us, and this is a perfect opportunity for it to do so. In the preamble it states "[to] promote the general welfare [of the people]." Isn't it safe to say that health falls under general welfare?

Quote:

Why is your favorite charity more deserving of funds than those of the people you propose to take the money from? What other things will go unfunded because the government has expropriated wealth for your pet projects...



Ask the men who balance the budget. I don't hold the funds, I simply plead my case to the officers in hopes it will persuade them, just as I'm sure someone lobbies for something else: fire with fire. I am not purposing further taxing. The current budget could be rebalanced. It's true, not everything can be funded. So I suppose it's a matter of priorities and persuasion.

Quote:

By what right do you make a claim upon the life of another to fund your preferred charities?



I am simply exercising my right to lobby for issues that hit close to home. The structure of our gov't is what dictates where funds go.

Quote:

Who is wanting to take more and more from people he does not know by force? Who thinks that he knows best how to spend other people's earnings? Not I.



And not I. I merely offer my opinion, which is my right, on how the gov't should work for us.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934430 - 07/27/04 09:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

viaggio writes:

For millions upon millions of sufferers, ESC research is there only hope. Does that qualify as a big whoop, pinky? Maybe I didn't answer that question well enough. I wonder what these hopefuls would think, how they would feel if you asked them "what's the big whoop?"

Classic Libbie technique -- appeal to emotion. No need to actually think things through, just go with your feelings. Note that I am not accusing you of being a Libbie, just of using the standard Libbie dodge.

Think about this for maybe five minutes. I'll wait till you're done......

Okay. By now you will have seen that the greedy scumsucking profit-crazed capitalists in the rapacious pharmaceutical industry have grasped the potential in stem cell research for profits that potentially dwarf anything they have yet seen. Being the heartless and opportunistic wretches they are, they are proceeding at full bore to investigate every possible avenue which might be opened to them due to discoveries revolving around stem cells.

Nothing government could possibly do will make discoveries any more likely than the fact that a pack of greedhead pharmacos are all racing to be the first ones to cure X, Y and Z condition. Bet on it. Not only is government funding not desirable, it is completely unnecessary.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Phred]
    #2934498 - 07/27/04 09:53 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You made a valid point.  But I'm confident that additional funding provided by the gov't would bring the goals faster.  And the govt's involvement might even promote collaboration of efforts.

Oh, and your Mom's a Libbie  :razz: (JK) :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2934560 - 07/27/04 10:05 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
No one here seems to understand what adult stem cells are...they come from adults, not embryos. Where's the moral controversy in that? Why no funding for that? Any Bush fans care to explain?




I think you were confused by what i said. I think stem cell research should be allowed.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935068 - 07/27/04 11:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viaggio said:
You made a valid point. But I'm confident that additional funding provided by the gov't would bring the goals faster. And the govt's involvement might even promote collaboration of efforts.



Tough. The government has no business getting involved in such a thing. Now how about you dig deep and donate some of your own money to this research instead of crying to your government to do it with other people's money?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935290 - 07/28/04 12:49 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Instead, I get a few lame nit-picking comments that walk around the topic of this thread.




Welcome to PA&L--starring the libertarians! :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935481 - 07/28/04 03:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it states "[to] promote the general welfare [of the people]."


It says no such thing.

``We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.''

Where do you see the words "of the people"?

Answer: You don't. The words refer to looking out for the country and defending it.


Quote:

Isn't it safe to say that health falls under general welfare?



No.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/28/04 03:42 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935500 - 07/28/04 04:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I agree. Stem Cell research is a non-issue that is lagging in progression and potential because of religious fundamentalists.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2935745 - 07/28/04 09:02 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The words refer to looking out for the country and defending it.





No, these words refer to defending it:
Quote:

provide for the common Defense




If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2935756 - 07/28/04 09:12 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Sigh...

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

James Madison, 1751 ? 1836
4th President of the United States
?Father? of the Constitution

When are you people going to learn? What would be the point of Article 1 Section 8, which specifically enumerates the functions of congress, if the framers meant the two words 'general welfare' to allow anything and everything our altruistic and magnanimous politicians desire. Wake up! The Constitution's PURPOSE is to define our VERY LIMITED federal government. You are nothing short of insane if you think the founding fathers wanted to give the federal government carte blanche to do whatever it is they want. That is the *EXACT OPPOSITE* of what they wanted the federal government to do.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2935819 - 07/28/04 09:53 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Sigh...

"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

James Madison, 1751 ? 1836
4th President of the United States
?Father? of the Constitution





Its not like he wrote the constitution himself :
Quote:

Madison made a major contribution to the ratification of the Constitution by writing, with Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, the Federalist essays. In later years, when he was referred to as the "Father of the Constitution," Madison protested that the document was not "the off-spring of a single brain," but "the work of many heads and many hands."clicky





This stance of Madison's was not a forgone conclusion for all of the founders. In fact, Jefferson cited the issue as "the only landmark which now divides the federalists from the republicans"

Quote:

After winning independence, our founders tried to translate the doctrine of man's rights into legal form. The Constitution they created included some compromises, one of which gives Congress the power to provide for the "general Welfare of the United States."

The compromise postponed settling an ongoing debate: How exactly does Congress provide for the general welfare? Two lines formed: one behind Jefferson, who wanted government to serve as "a guardian of fair play," the other behind Hamilton, who wanted government to direct our play.clicky(note:


this article is behind the Jefferson movement, yet it still acknowledges that those words were a deliberate compromise and its interpretation was a source of debate from the very start)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2935820 - 07/28/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This issue is so rediculous it hardly merits the time wasted.Technology has progreesed to the point that stem cells can be cultured from ones own tissue(ie; NO FETUSES!)which completely deflates the "ethical" issue.So lets see who profits from the diseases which stem cells may cure(completly w/o further drugs or treatment=loss of income)Drug companies?With the advent of using adult stem cells cultured from the future recipient of treatment it is hardly more than a skin graft.Science has many flaws but harvesting fetuses is not generaly one of them.So far the republicans have put forth gay marriage as a great threat and falsly stated that fetuses would be "harvested" for stem cells.They are not stupid and have to knw that stem cell research must eventually be focused on endogenous cells in order to prevent chance of rejection.
I guess when a political party has fucked up the country this badly they'll use any diversion from the real problems created in the last three yrs.
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2935836 - 07/28/04 10:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'd appreciate you also responding to this part of my post:

Quote:

When are you people going to learn? What would be the point of Article 1 Section 8, which specifically enumerates the functions of congress, if the framers meant the two words 'general welfare' to allow anything and everything our altruistic and magnanimous politicians desire.




Thanks.

ps. Hamilton was a mercantalist.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2935995 - 07/28/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

And I'd appreciate you responding to this part of my post:

Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?




context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2936031 - 07/28/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?



pre?am?ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prmbl, pr-m-)
n.
A preliminary statement, especially the introduction to a formal document that serves to explain its purpose.

I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. 'Promotion of the general welfare' in the preamble is a phrase used to vaguely describe some of what the federal government will be doing under the constitution. I still stand strongly by Madison's quote.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2936121 - 07/28/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

why is everyone arguing over what a bunch of dead people wrote?

here is a news flash:

when the constitution was written there were no automobiles, no internet, no television, no radio, no air conditioning, and no nuclear weapons, among other things. The constitution and the government which is based upon it have become obsolete.

its time to make adjustments for situational contingencies.

I know what you're saying, viaggo, and I agree with you. But you are never going to convince these selfish libertarian kindergarteners to share with the other children. They will continue to use dead men's words and inapplicable moral principles to justify their own isolation from society.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936154 - 07/28/04 12:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
why is everyone arguing over what a bunch of dead people wrote?



Duh! The constitution is the charter of the federal government. We discuss their writings because they are applicable to the topic at hand. Look at the title of this forum. How can this concept escape someone who's as brilliant as you think you are?

Quote:

when the constitution was written there were no automobiles, no internet, no television, no radio, no air conditioning, and no nuclear weapons, among other things.



Irrelevant. The underlying principles are still the same. The constituion also was designed to be modified.

Quote:

The constitution and the government which is based upon it have become obsolete.



Why, because you say so. Brilliant argument.

Quote:

its time to make adjustments for situational contingencies.



Ever heard of amendments? Or did you not teach yourself that concept?

Quote:

I know what you're saying, viaggo, and I agree with you. But you are never going to convince these selfish libertarian kindergarteners to share with the other children.



Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?

Quote:

They will continue to use dead men's words and inapplicable moral principles to justify their own isolation from society.



Words have meanings (I know, you didn't teach yourself this concept either). Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable? Because you say so? Because they conflict with some people's desire to force others to pay for their wishes?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 6 days
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936161 - 07/28/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

We all make good points.  But I think the obvious key is that legislation doesn't evolve as quickly as the times.  Issues like these do trigger it though :smile:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2936233 - 07/28/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Duh! The constitution is the charter of the federal government. We discuss their writings because they are applicable to the topic at hand. Look at the title of this forum. How can this concept escape someone who's as brilliant as you think you are?





dude, the constitution is just words on a piece of paper with a bunch of dead people's signatures on it. It has no bearing upon reality. The People's Republic of China has a beautifully written, eloquent constitution which is actually very similar to ours. Words are just words.

Quote:

Irrelevant. The underlying principles are still the same.




Irrelevant? says you. I think the technological advances the human race has made in the last 200 years are highly relevant to the process of government.

and principles are just words in our heads which have nothing to do with objective reality.

Quote:

Ever heard of amendments?




How many new amendments do we need right now? When is the last time one has been passed? The constitution is not flexible enough. it may have been able to keep up with horses, but it won't keep up with automobiles. Technology has left our government behind.

Quote:

Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?





wow, did you pull that directly out of Ayn Rand? Thats so original, dude. Do you write your own material? Because thats just so fresh, man. I've never heard that before.

tell me why it isnt selfish to lead a decadent lifestyle while your fellow humans are suffering because you refuse to help them?

Quote:

Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable?




because they would only work if the world was a lot simpler. The world isn't getting more simple; its getting more complex. Your rigid adherence to obsolete values is a sandcastle which will soon be swept away with the tides.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2936382 - 07/28/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
... principles are just words in our heads which have nothing to do with objective reality.



Wrong, principles do have a bearing on reality, they are in fact derived from reality.

Quote:

Technology has left our government behind.



So are you proposing anarchy?

Quote:

Quote:

Pot, kettle, black. Tell us, why is it selfish to refuse to take other people's earning under color of authority?





wow, did you pull that directly out of Ayn Rand?



Care to answer the question instead of offering inane attempts at an insult? Why is it selfish to refuse to support the taking other people's earnings under color of authority?

Quote:

tell me why it isnt selfish to lead a decadent lifestyle while your fellow humans are suffering because you refuse to help them?



Sorry, I don't do straw men. I am not promoting a decadent lifestyle (whatever your mind may imagine that is), nor am I promoting selfishness (though if a person chooses to be selfish, that is none of my business as long as he is not aggressing against others). I think that it is a good thing for people to voluntarily support medical research and wholeheartedly endorse this.

Quote:

Quote:

Why are the moral principles being discussed inapplicable?




because they would only work if the world was a lot simpler.



Bullshit. Why don't you tell the truth and say that moral principles get in the way of your whims and be done with it. At least that would be honest. Admit that you look upon the individual as a public resource to be harnessed for the cause du jour, and that there is no theoretical end to what burdens you are willing to place upon your fellow man in the name of 'the greater good.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2936754 - 07/28/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

If they mean the same thing, why would they have included it?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



context: if 'general welfare' just meant providing defense, why did they include it? why was it an issue at the time?



pre?am?ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prmbl, pr-m-)
n.
A preliminary statement, especially the introduction to a formal document that serves to explain its purpose.

I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. 'Promotion of the general welfare' in the preamble is a phrase used to vaguely describe some of what the federal government will be doing under the constitution. I still stand strongly by Madison's quote.




Holy shit, you go on and on about this and it sounds like you haven't even read the fucking constitution?!?

Notice:


Preamble:
Quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




versus

Article I Section VIII:
Quote:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;




I'd be embarrassed if I were you, acting like you know what the founders meant by each single clause, it sounds more like you haven't even bothered to read your precious Constitution, specifically the part we've been discussing (or at least the part i've been discussing). CLASSIC libertarian parroting. Formulate your own opinions for christ sake before you go on parroting them like they were fucking gospel.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2936779 - 07/28/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

if you don't take them in context with the rest of the document, the words "general welfare" can be used as a justification for just about anything the federal government decides to do. the drug war and patriot act come to mind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: ]
    #2936815 - 07/28/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I oppose the drug war not as much on a constitutional basis, but because i think it does far more harm than good in so, so many ways.

i would say 'provide for the common defense' leads to the patriot act more than 'general welfare'.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2936838 - 07/28/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How can this concept escape someone who's as brilliant as you think you are?



Apparently, quite easily.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Tao]
    #2936849 - 07/28/04 03:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Nice try, but I'm well aware of that particular clause. It can be logically deduced that it serves as a pretext for the following clauses in Article 1 Section 8. Notice how:

Quote:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;





is qualified by further clauses in Article 1 Section 8 that explain the powers of Congress with regard to the military. The same is true for the words 'general welfare,' they are qualified by the other clauses. Profusely embarrassed indeed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Evolving]
    #2937388 - 07/28/04 05:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong, principles do have a bearing on reality, they are in fact derived from reality.




no, they are derived from our subjective perception of reality.

Quote:

So are you proposing anarchy?




no I'm proposing a government strong enough and sophisticated enough to keep up with technology and keep the power that science has given to the individual in check.

Quote:

Why is it selfish to refuse to support the taking other people's earnings under color of authority?





because sometimes you have to do what's right even though its not something you want to do. Your philosophy does not account for this scenario. The politics you are loyal to put too much trust in the individual's moral compass.

Quote:

Sorry, I don't do straw men. I am not promoting a decadent lifestyle (whatever your mind may imagine that is), nor am I promoting selfishness (though if a person chooses to be selfish, that is none of my business as long as he is not aggressing against others).




compared to the rest of the world, a penniless American bum's life is decadent.

Quote:

Bullshit. Why don't you tell the truth and say that moral principles get in the way of your whims and be done with it. At least that would be honest. Admit that you look upon the individual as a public resource to be harnessed for the cause du jour, and that there is no theoretical end to what burdens you are willing to place upon your fellow man in the name of 'the greater good.'




I thought you said you didnt do straw men? I support government checks to private power, so I guess that makes you think I want everyone to be in chains eating gruel with no rights and no property. Three words dude: reductio ad absurdium.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2937930 - 07/28/04 07:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
no I'm proposing a government strong enough and sophisticated enough to keep up with technology and keep the power that science has given to the individual in check.



Not another one of these childish fantasies where you know better how to run everything...

Quote:

Quote:

Why is it selfish to refuse to support the taking other people's earnings under color of authority?



because sometimes you have to do what's right even though its not something you want to do.



That is not an answer to the question.

Quote:

Your philosophy does not account for this scenario.



It's amazing that someone can be so incredibly ignorant and yet so impressed with himself. My morality DOES account for doing something right (or refraining from doing something in order to remain right) even though on some level I may not want it that way. But since these are principles that I choose to live by, I actually want to do what is right. To do right requires an act of volition. To do right does not mean farming out your 'good' deeds and having a third party pay for them under force or threat of force. That is not doing right, that is an act of moral cowardice and shows a glaring lack of conviction needed to do what is right. These concepts can be seen in my previous statements in this thread and others, but this has gone right over your swollen head.

Quote:

The politics you are loyal to put too much trust in the individual's moral compass.



How do you get that? This does not follow from any statements that I made. What's your game, throw a bunch of shit on the wall and see what sticks?

Quote:

compared to the rest of the world, a penniless American bum's life is decadent.



And this relates to the discussion how?

Quote:

I support government checks to private power, so I guess that makes you think I want everyone to be in chains eating gruel with no rights and no property.



Huh? Your guesses are WAY off. I tell you what, give up psychology, you are ill suited to it - your inability to understand another person is a glaring deficiency.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: Viaggio]
    #2939710 - 07/29/04 08:47 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This thread is a prime example of the dichotomy of ideal which has been cultivated for 70+ yrs.So to each side of this inane arguement,keep arguing, that is just what is desired of you right now.As long as we as a people are divided by rhetoric from both hands of the same body what you see is what you will continue to get. There are NO conservatives or liberals here just tools of the state spewing whatever rhetoric they've bought into.So all of you "constitutional experts" and "liberdemopublican" pundits keep arguing Uncle Sam loves you just like that.
PS the Constitution is VERY similar to the Bible.People take one passage and run with it,usually to oppress some other group.
I have seen a great deal of typing time devoted to which side is "right" here's the news kids....You are all wrong! We live in an illusory country under illusory law. The reality is we live in the "Corporate Earth" and each and every one of us is eventually expected to produce for the corporation to "earn' our right to the dwindling resources of this planet. No more indiginous tribal lifestyles, no more tribal people only work units. So while you all argue remember the subject is closed and you are merely arguing theory no longer relevent fact.
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: whiterasta]
    #2940112 - 07/29/04 10:42 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

BUMP!!!!


--------------------
To old for this place

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Kerry and Stem Cell Research [Re: whiterasta]
    #2942716 - 07/29/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I have seen a great deal of typing time devoted to which side is "right" here's the news kids....You are all wrong! We live in an illusory country under illusory law. The reality is we live in the "Corporate Earth" and each and every one of us is eventually expected to produce for the corporation to "earn' our right to the dwindling resources of this planet. No more indiginous tribal lifestyles, no more tribal people only work units. So while you all argue remember the subject is closed and you are merely arguing theory no longer relevent fact.
 



Silence speaks volumes....
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Stem Cell Research
( 1 2 3 all )
silversoul7 3,645 50 11/03/04 09:08 AM
by Viaggio
* ron regan jr's stem cell speech
( 1 2 3 all )
KingOftheThing 3,265 55 08/11/04 10:28 PM
by Phred
* How can Kerry win the debates...
( 1 2 3 all )
Phred 3,025 46 10/03/04 10:18 PM
by Rono
* Would you vote for kerry if he wasn't running against bush? Lazerouth 1,174 12 08/16/04 02:49 PM
by DigitalDuality
* Bush voters: Why should I vote for Bush? EDIT
( 1 2 all )
monoamine 2,204 39 09/29/04 10:29 PM
by Phred
* John Kerry's Speech
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Zahid 5,099 61 07/31/04 04:53 PM
by Ancalagon
* House Bans Coloning of Human Cells
( 1 2 all )
PotSmokinHippie 4,083 21 08/04/01 09:36 AM
by Phred
* Kerry picks Edwards!!!! KingOftheThing 536 5 07/06/04 06:46 PM
by silversoul7

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,545 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 16 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.044 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.