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OfflineCyber
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Registered: 06/14/04
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The U.S. Constitution
    #2928167 - 07/26/04 11:45 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

I think the founding fathers of the US had it right. The people of the US have not kept an eye on the actions of the government. Like a company where the board of directors is on vacation 24x7 365 it has gone to hell. I attribute this partly to the allowing of the government to run the schools. I was taught that the constitution was an outdated document that had no meaning in the modern world.

So I ask how many of you have read the The U.S. Constitution?

The reason I ask is that it outlines just what the government can and cannot do! If you read it you will find that it restricts the government. The amendments seem to have changed around 1933 from protecting the state or individual from government intrusion to giving the government more power and restricting the states/people. I find this odd, because The U.S. Constitution is the document by which the government operates and solely dictates restrictions on the governments actions. The rights protected in the construction are all peoples rights at birth given by the creator. They are not granted or given by The U.S. Constitution. It only states that the government may not infringe on them.
Have you read The U.S. Constitution
You may choose only one
Yes
No
Not a US Citizen


Votes accepted from (07/26/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
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OfflineTwirling
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Cyber]
    #2928276 - 07/26/04 12:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've read it quite a few times throughout my life, but I also couldn't tell you the details of it. I'm gonna go read it again now that you've brought it up.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Cyber]
    #2928320 - 07/26/04 12:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i've read it a few times but I go back to it when I have a question about it. It is anything but outdated. The only people who say it's outdated are those that don't understand it.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Cyber]
    #2928383 - 07/26/04 01:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

My high school required that every student pass a "liberty and law" class in order to graduate. One of the requirements for the class was reading the constitution. I think we spent about two weeks going over it in class. We would read a small section each day and then discuss what it mean and how it applied to us in our everyday lives.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Seuss]
    #2928447 - 07/26/04 01:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

our HS was the same way but it was just called "Government". We had the option to take it for summerschool which meant we could have an extra elective for our senior year. I took it in the summer but the teacher wasn't that good. I learned ALOT more from a college poly-sci class.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Cyber]
    #2928596 - 07/26/04 02:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The rights protected in the construction are all peoples rights at birth given by the creator. They are not granted or given by The U.S. Constitution.


:rolleyes:


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Tao]
    #2928601 - 07/26/04 02:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Feel free to replace 'the creator' by nature. What he's saying is, even if you do not agree with it, what this country was founded on and what made it great.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineTao
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2928629 - 07/26/04 02:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It was also founded upon discrimiation of women and slavery of blacks which the creator must have 'given' to white men for their use. :rolleyes:

How does nature 'give' rights?  When did it give us these rights? At what point in evolution were humanoids mystically given these 'rights'.  Isn't it a bit more likely that these 'rights' have been created by humans to represent their most inner desires and lay out a relatively fair plan for each individual to seek those desires?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Tao]
    #2928673 - 07/26/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

How does nature 'give' rights?



It does not.

Quote:

When did it give us these rights?



It did not.

Quote:

what point in evolution were humanoids mystically given these 'rights'.



They never were.

Quote:

Isn't it a bit more likely that these 'rights' have been created by humans to represent their most inner desires and lay out a relatively fair plan for each individual to seek those desires?



Natural Rights are not 'given'. They are inherent and are derived from the nature of what man is, that is a creature that must reason in order to survive, and therefore need be free in order to apply that reason. If a man existed alone(state of nature) he would have the right to do whatever it is he is able to do. Such a state does not exist however, and men instead exist in the presence of other men. The initial right to do whatever one wishes is no longer valid due to the ability of one man to restrain, harm, kill, or otherwise initiate force against another. Facing this reality, man has a choice to either run away(with the very likely possibility that he will continue to find more men who will infringe upon his right to do what he wishes), kill the other men(with the very likely possibility that he will be killed in the process), or coexist with the others. The third option is the only valid one and in order for this coexistance to work, the rights of man become the right to do whatever it is one wishes so long as he does not initiate force or the threat of force against another. In order to secure these natural rights and ONLY to secure these natural rights, governments are instituted among a group of men deriving their power from the consent of the governed.

That is natural rights theory to my knowledge.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Tao]
    #2928937 - 07/26/04 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
It was also founded upon discrimiation of women and slavery of blacks which the creator must have 'given' to white men for their use. :rolleyes: 




http://www.justfacts.com/racial_issues.htm#slavery

"I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it." ? George Washington

Our Declaration of Independence clearly stated that all men were created equal.  Most of our founding fathers were opponents of slavery.  Within 30 years of the Declaration of Independence every northern state had abolished slavery.  Within one hundred years slavery was abolished completely.  Had they abolished it at the outset, they would not have been able to form a union in the first place due to the influence of the powerful in the south.

Our country wasn't founded on slavery.  You could make a better argument that our country was founded to abolish it.  More Americans died in the war that freed the slaves than every other American war combined.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineTao
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2929126 - 07/26/04 05:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yet Washington and Jefferson both owned slaves. Still Jeffereson wanted to include a sentence in the Declaration of Independence that denounced slavery and blamed it on the King, but was quickly hushed by all the founders. Instead, blacks counted for 3/5ths of a person, weren't equally until 1965 and women couldnt vote till 1920s.

Quote:

More Americans died in the war that freed the slaves than every other American war combined.



1) One could just as well say that more americans died in the war fighting to keep slavery legal than in every other war combined.
2) Do I need to get the Lincoln quotes out for you? That war wasn't about freeing the slaves.

anyway, my point is that what made the constitution great was the novel system of checks and balances (bill of rights wasn't even included in the original), not necessarily the philosophies of its founding fathers (which obviously varied greatly, you can't just select certain quotes from certain members).


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Offlinenonick
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Registered: 09/15/05
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Tao]
    #5647410 - 05/18/06 09:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm with GW on this one... It's just a goddamned piece of paper!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The U.S. Constitution [Re: Cyber]
    #5647881 - 05/18/06 11:30 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Not only have I read the constitution. I keep a pocket-sized copy of it with me at all times.


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