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Zahid
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Former professor: Bush not qualified for President
#2917953 - 07/22/04 09:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush?s former professor says he?s not qualified to be president July 13, 2004 TOKYO - A former teacher of U.S. President George Bush on Friday questioned his qualifications as president in an address to foreign reporters in Japan. Speaking at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Japan in Tokyo, City University of New York prof. Yoshihiro Tsurumi said, "I always remember two groups of students. One is the really good students, not only intelligent, but with leadership qualities, courage. The other is the total opposite, unfortunately to which George belonged." "President Bush can no longer be reelected on the basis of his - quote unquote - leadership," Tsurumi, who was Bush?s professor at Harvard Business School, told his audience in reference to November?s presidential election in the United States. He recalled a conversation with Bush when he met him soon after he arrived at Harvard. "I asked him, ?What have you been doing ? How about Vietnam ?? and he said, ?Well, I?ve been in the National Guard in Texas.? I said, ?How did you get that ? There?s a 10-year waiting list.? And he said, ?Well, my dad has connections."? Tsurumi is a frequent commentator for U.S. news programs, and has been outspoken in his criticism of both Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi. "In my class, he (Bush) declared that ?people are poor because they are lazy.? He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare and public schools. To him, Franklin D Roosevelt?s New Deal was ?socialism,"? Tsurumi said. (Kyodo News) http://www.lebadaud.com/article.php3?id_article=187
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GernBlanston
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2917988 - 07/22/04 09:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've heard this guy speak on Janeanne Garafolo's show twice now - really some interesting and eye-opening stuff.
-------------------- There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -- Howard Zinn
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918017 - 07/22/04 09:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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So in other words that guys knows whats best and Bush only thinks he knows whats best?
Exactly what is it about him that leads you to believe he isn't a good leader?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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MAGnum
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918022 - 07/22/04 09:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush is a rass clat, did he really have to be a president for just this term for us to realize this?
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MAGnum
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2918037 - 07/22/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said: So in other words that guys knows whats best and Bush only thinks he knows whats best?
Exactly what is it about him that leads you to believe he isn't a good leader?
Bush is was good at keeping his approval rating high not because he is a leader, but because he is a misleader.
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MAGnum
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2918070 - 07/22/04 09:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I forgot to say why. He stole the first election, mislead us about Iraqu, said he advocates a high achievement education system yet allowed his war to fuck up our school's budgets. That's just the start of it, do I need to go on? Oh yeah, he skipped out on war for his contry and somehow ended up leading the executive branch of government. THen when he is president, he sends all these other fellow human beings to war. He's a thilthy RASS CLAT!
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d33p
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918195 - 07/22/04 10:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said:
"In my class, he (Bush) declared that ?people are poor because they are lazy.? He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare and public schools. To him, Franklin D Roosevelt?s New Deal was ?socialism,"? Tsurumi said. (Kyodo News)
Why does the article paint Bush in such a positive light?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: d33p]
#2918218 - 07/22/04 10:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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so you believe people are poor because theyre lazy, labor unions are horrible, there should be no environmental protection, and also hate the concept of having public schools?
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2918280 - 07/22/04 10:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MAGnum said: I forgot to say why. He stole the first election, mislead us about Iraqu, said he advocates a high achievement education system yet allowed his war to fuck up our school's budgets. That's just the start of it, do I need to go on? Oh yeah, he skipped out on war for his contry and somehow ended up leading the executive branch of government. THen when he is president, he sends all these other fellow human beings to war. He's a thilthy RASS CLAT!
can you prove any one of those statements?
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Evolving
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2918302 - 07/22/04 10:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MAGnum said: I forgot to say why. He stole the first election,
He won the election with the rules in place at the time.
Quote:
mislead us about Iraqu,
He didn't mislead me, but apparently quite a few others were misled.
Quote:
said he advocates a high achievement education system yet allowed his war to fuck up our school's budgets.
More $ does not equal a better education, one need only look at expenditures of private schools vs. public schools to realize this. The problems are of a systemic nature, not of funding. The federal government has no business in education, it should be a local issue not under any central authority. I also think it is unfair that those who do not have children or those who are not getting an education should be forced to pay for the education of others. BTW, I am a parent of two school age children.
Quote:
That's just the start of it, do I need to go on?
No, please don't.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2918306 - 07/22/04 10:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said: So in other words that guys knows whats best and Bush only thinks he knows whats best?
Exactly what is it about him that leads you to believe he isn't a good leader?
He isn't a good leader because he mislead the country into a war that didn't need to be fought. Because of this, Bush does not know what's best - he thinks he knows what's best for the world, let alone the American people. Benighted to say the least!
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918315 - 07/22/04 10:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said:
He isn't a good leader because he mislead the country into a war that didn't need to be fought.
I dont see him misleading anybody, maybe you should watch the news headlines abot the 9/11 report
Quote:
he thinks he knows what's best for the world, let alone the American people.
Sounds like what presidents are sopposed to believe
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d33p
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2918351 - 07/22/04 10:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morrowind said: so you believe people are poor because theyre lazy some , labor unions are horrible sometimes , there should be no environmental protection too much promotes foriegn labor and slows the capitalist market , and also hate the concept of having public schools? they have failed, what can i say?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Redo]
#2918417 - 07/22/04 10:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I dont see him misleading anybody, maybe you should watch the news headlines abot the 9/11 report
What the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11?
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918432 - 07/22/04 10:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zahid said:]
What the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11?
The report ties Iraq to Al Quaeda directly
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: d33p]
#2918433 - 07/22/04 10:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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public schools - why have they not failed so miserably in other countries? They can be done properly
Yes, some unions are not good. But without them, theres pretty much no way to fight your company for any decent protection - if you try, youre just plain screwed. Especially in such places as factories.
Environmental protection is a way to force domestic labor into sustainable practice. Sustainable = a way to actually plan for the long term.
Poor people - So it's ok to screw them all because some are lazy fuckers?
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Redo]
#2918444 - 07/22/04 10:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redo said:
Quote:
Zahid said:]
What the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11?
The report ties Iraq to Al Quaeda directly
How?
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d33p
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2918497 - 07/22/04 10:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morrowind said: public schools - why have they not failed so miserably in other countries? They can be done properly The condition of America's youth has grown to a state where the current system is unworkable
Yes, some unions are not good. But without them, theres pretty much no way to fight your company for any decent protection - if you try, youre just plain screwed. Especially in such places as factories. The government should not be interfering with the economy is the way i see it. Its up to the people of the company and the company. I would say i oppose union regulation not the union themselves
Environmental protection is a way to force domestic labor into sustainable practice. Sustainable = a way to actually plan for the long term. Unfortunatly sustainable practice means nothing when another country is ready to take over the work regulation free
Poor people - So it's ok to screw them all because some are lazy fuckers? Neither bush nor i said screw them. I feel welfare and various other social programs have been detremental to the American poor. Some are just lazy and some are just fucked, not my problem
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918504 - 07/22/04 10:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Zahid Im looking, I saw a nice quote of it on OReilly and Im searching for it now and all I see is propaganda sites saying there is no alliance, which there really wasnt.
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Redo]
#2918549 - 07/22/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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What are you talking about.
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918561 - 07/22/04 11:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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A quote from the 9/11 commissions report about the Iraq-Al Quaeda link
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Redo]
#2918631 - 07/22/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quite babbling and post the damn quote already.
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Redo
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2918685 - 07/22/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wont be able to find it till tommarow, talking points are delayed online by a day.
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Zahid
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Redo]
#2918711 - 07/22/04 11:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok.
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MAGnum
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Evolving]
#2918882 - 07/23/04 12:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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He won the election with the rules in place at the time.
Not by the popular vote, also, our voting system is extremely shady. http://www.votescam.com/
He didn't mislead me, but apparently quite a few others were misled.
It is a quite pleasent excuse that he was mislead by people below him, who can serve as scape goat. I don't believe that the president was unaware of the POW abuse. I believe he knew about 9-11 before it happenned and allowed it to happen to mobilize war. This shit is just too perfectly orchistrated.
[BMore $ does not equal a better education, one need only look at expenditures of private schools vs. public schools to realize this. The problems are of a systemic nature, not of funding. The federal government has no business in education, it should be a local issue not under any central authority. I also think it is unfair that those who do not have children or those who are not getting an education should be forced to pay for the education of others. BTW, I am a parent of two school age children.[/B]
More money does mean better education when the lack of money doesn't allow the school to buy up to date books, new paper, have extracorricular activities etc. In the state I live, schools are struggling due to a shortage in the budget. IMO the federal government shouldn't regulate the schools, but they should most certainly pay for education. In fact they should give teachers all a raise, but that's off topic.
And the funding of education is supposed to help our nation as a whole. You cannot go wrong with giving people a good education!
Quote:
That's just the start of it, do I need to go on?
No, please don't.
Bush is still a Rass Clat.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2919423 - 07/23/04 03:53 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
He stole the first election
Thanks for showing us your level of intellectual honesty right at the start. It helps to know who can't face facts. Bush won fair and square. Quote:
do I need to go on?
Only after you learn what the word facts means and you learn how to use them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/23/04 03:55 AM)
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Evolving
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2920045 - 07/23/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
MAGnum said: He won the election with the rules in place at the time.
Not by the popular vote, also, our voting system is extremely shady.
Again, he won by the rules in place at the time. There are reasons for the rules, do some research on the Constitutional convention debates, The Federalist Papers and The Anti-Federalist papers, it might be enlightening. Oh, here in California the popular vote consists of illegal aliens - thank you democrats.
Quote:
More money does mean better education when the lack of money....
Again, the problems are SYSTEMIC. Private schools turn out better educated students with far less money. Contrary to liberal doctrine, throwing more money at a problem is not the best solution for everything.
Quote:
IMO the federal government shouldn't regulate the schools,
Good for you.
Quote:
... but they should most certainly pay for education.
Why? Why should people who don't have children be forced to pay for the education of other people's children? Why should a person working his ass off to support himself be forced to pay for the education of someone who will come out of school and compete with him at a lower wage (because that person is just entering the work force)?
Quote:
And the funding of education is supposed to help our nation as a whole.
Yes, that's the excuse of everyone who wants to suck on the government teat (read: 'be a parasite on the backs of the working man')
Quote:
You cannot go wrong with giving people a good education!
Good, then you pay for it and don't ask government to force others to fulfill YOUR wishes.
Quote:
Bush is still a Rass Clat.
I prefer the term jackass.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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grib



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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2920191 - 07/23/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
"In my class, he (Bush) declared that ?people are poor because they are lazy.? He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare and public schools. To him, Franklin D Roosevelt?s New Deal was ?socialism,"? Tsurumi said. (Kyodo News)
If Bush said that I'd have to say that I agree (with the exception of the 'enviromental protection' part). In reality I think Bush simply parrots what others say. ___________________________________ ***edit*** Evolving wrote:
Quote:
Private schools turn out better educated students with far less money. Contrary to liberal doctrine, throwing more money at a problem is not the best solution for everything.
True, look at the expenditures per child of the D.C.P.S (District of Columbia Public Schools). DCPS is at or near the top of the list of out-lays per student yet they have some of the worst scores in the country. That's only one example.
Quote:
Why? Why should people who don't have children be forced to pay for the education of other people's children? Why should a person working his ass off to support himself be forced to pay for the education of someone who will come out of school and compete with him at a lower wage (because that person is just entering the work force)?
May I expand that a little? Because in many cases government schools are inferior to private schools many people pay to send their kids to private schools so that they may actually learn to read, write and count. Why should those people have to pay for 'services' not required nor desired?
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
Edited by grib (07/23/04 11:45 AM)
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: grib]
#2920279 - 07/23/04 12:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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because public education is priceless for a society. an uneducated citizenry would be as dangerous for me or anyone else as cutting police protection in half. look at countries without public education for examples.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2920306 - 07/23/04 12:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Like the U.S. before public education?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Evolving]
#2920721 - 07/23/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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What year was that? Back when it was a privilege of the rich elite?
Public Education is also just about the best investment a society can make into the nation's economy.
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grib



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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2920847 - 07/23/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said: because public education is priceless for a society. an uneducated citizenry would be as dangerous for me or anyone else as cutting police protection in half. look at countries without public education for examples.
That doesn't answer the question, 'Why should we pay to educate someone else's children?' It's not enough that I pay to educate mine? Also, why should someone who has no children pay to educate someone else's off-spring?
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: grib]
#2920865 - 07/23/04 02:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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why? because it makes his own place in society more secure. Instead of living with completely uneducated people all around, he will be helping to educate them.
Why should someone have to pay for ANYTHING at all via taxes? What if youre a pacifist and don't want to pay for the military? What if youre an anarchist, and don't want to support the state at all?
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: grib]
#2920879 - 07/23/04 02:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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why should i pay for any expense of a criminal in prison (food, shelter, etc.)? answer that.
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grib



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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2920951 - 07/23/04 03:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morrowind said: why? because it makes his own place in society more secure. Instead of living with completely uneducated people all around, he will be helping to educate them.
Well, you see, personal responsibility is where the focus should be. If you want to have a child you should understand that the responsibility for education should be yours (well, at least if you care about your child).
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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grib



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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2920967 - 07/23/04 03:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said: why should i pay for any expense of a criminal in prison (food, shelter, etc.)? answer that.
Excellent point!!! You should not. The convict should be made to earn his keep.
-------------------- <~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: grib]
#2920987 - 07/23/04 03:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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And what about the child? What did he/she do to deserve such a situation? What can he/she do? The child is not old enough to work and pay for their own education. I do wish that people were more responsible when having children but the fact remains that many will make stupid decisions both when sober and intoxicated and sometimes it is even bad luck to blame (the only birth control that's 100% effective is abstinence [and abortions?] and it is infeasible to be completely relying on that as a choice of birth control for all adults who are not in a good postition to have children). The child should not be punished for this, IMO society should come together and educate our younger generation for the good of the society in all aspects of life.
And of course, if people do not like paying for public education, they may renounce citzenship and leave, hopefully to a place that does not have publicly funded education.
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: grib]
#2921013 - 07/23/04 03:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The convict should be made to earn his keep.
What if injured or unable to work? What if they are completely unskilled and do not earn enough to pay their keep? What if there aren't enough opportunities for them to earn their keep?
And answer Morrowind's question which libertarians always ignore--why should I be forced to pay for protection (military and police) if I don't want it?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921121 - 07/23/04 03:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Soylent Green
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zappaisgod
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921148 - 07/23/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why should you be forced to pay for protection? You're not. Move away.
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: zappaisgod]
#2921152 - 07/23/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The same logic can be used with the education argument.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2921157 - 07/23/04 03:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quite so
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: zappaisgod]
#2921191 - 07/23/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right, that was my point. I accept that if the society/state decides a certain amount of money must fund protection somewhere, than that's where my tax dollars will go. Same goes for education and welfare. Otherwise, renounce citizenship and leave.
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Evolving
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921216 - 07/23/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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National defense is a function subject to free-riders who benefit, whereas education and welfare benefit specific individuals who should pay for them. Other individuals who do not benefit (such childess people, workers who could lose their jobs to beneficiaries of education and all others who are not receiving taxpayer supported education) should not pay.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Evolving]
#2921224 - 07/23/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thats all good and fine, but a loophole would be showing that everyone benefits through education and welfare indirectly, or by showing how it is not beneficial for a citizen to have National defense
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2921487 - 07/23/04 05:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not by the popular vote
So what? The Electoral Vote is what counts.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2921495 - 07/23/04 05:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why should someone have to pay for ANYTHING at all via taxes? What if youre a pacifist and don't want to pay for the military? What if youre an anarchist, and don't want to support the state at all?
Because some things are constitutional uses of our money.
Education is not one of them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921503 - 07/23/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What did he/she do to deserve such a situation?
What did I do to be required to pay? None of my sperm was involved.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2921583 - 07/23/04 05:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What did I do to be required to pay?
You continue to be a citizen of the U.S.A. and thus follow its laws (including tax laws).
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luvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921594 - 07/23/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great. Now show me where education is a constitutionally allowable expenditure.
Meanwhile I'll point you towards the 10th amendment.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2921606 - 07/23/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
* Article I - Section 8 . . . provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . . . . . . To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper . . . . .
I know you (and others) interpret this passage differently, but unfortunately, it is the judicial branch's interpretation that matters.
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Ancalagon
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921619 - 07/23/04 06:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." James Madison, 1751 ? 1836 4th President of the United States ?Father? of the Constitution
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921620 - 07/23/04 06:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
* Article I - Section 8
. . . provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .
. . . . To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper . . . . .
I know you (and others) interpret this passage differently, but unfortunately, it is the judicial branch's interpretation that matters.
You could have (more accurately) just said "no" I can't show you.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Dragonaut

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,219
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President *DELETED* [Re: Zahid]
#2921658 - 07/23/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by DragonautReason for deletion: .
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2921715 - 07/23/04 06:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush is a shitty president, but for very different reasons than this professor gave.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Dragonaut]
#2921737 - 07/23/04 06:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
WI_Shroomer_Skater said: To all the right-wingers, who don't want to pay taxes to help their fellow Americans, who think poor people are poor because they're lazy:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so.
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If it wasn't for public education, our economy would crumble.
Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
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People need an education to earn a living, but people also need to pay for that education one way or another.
Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories. There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
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If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
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How are they supposed to make a place for themselves in the economy?
By being willing to work hard be responsible.
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If it weren't for public education some people would never be able to break free of poverty, and because of their inability to advance in society they would continue to be looked down upon by you, and they would not be given the opportunities they need to succeed.
And this is different than the current system how?
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How are the "lazy" people supposed to make something of themselves if they have nothing, and you won't help?
I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
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You'd like to sit there and complain about them and how they are such a drain on the economy/society, but it is your poltics that keep them where they are and further perpetuate the problem.
Nope. It's the fact that they weren't born rich, and haven't considered all the options available to them. Not my fault.
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So you have no right to complain about funding that goes to public schooling, because without it... sure, you're kids would be just fine, but what about the thousands of others who never had a shot because their parents couldn't provide it for them without the government's assistance?
There are jobs which do not require much(if any) schooling. Even several U.S. presidents never attended school. And for those that want an education, there's always home-schooling.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922003 - 07/23/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so....I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
if you don't want to pay for it, leave the country. Good luck finding a country with much of an economy or living standard that does not have public education.
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Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
Because now our economy is so large that it depends on it. The economy wouldn't have 'crumbled' before, but it was miniscule compared to what it is now. not something to be envied.
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Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories.
(utter bullshit i don't believe that you actually believe that)
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There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
Yeah, it was a time when there was far scarcer chance at upward mobility, when kids started coal mining at 5 and didnt quite till the day they died. Ahh, those were the days. 
Quote:
If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
BULLSHIT. You libertarians just always take it for granted that these govt programs have been absolute failures. However, there is increased upward mobility. my father for example grew up very poor in the middle of a mid-west state small town and was eventually able to become a surgeon through hard work and perserverence. wouldnt of happened w/o public education though, doctors in pre-public education times always had to have rich enough parents to fund their education. public education increases the number of competitors for jobs so that the more skilled members are found to be our doctors rather than just the more priviliged.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922024 - 07/23/04 08:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so....I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
if you don't want to pay for it, leave the country. Good luck finding a country with much of an economy or living standard that does not have public education.
We've been through this before. There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
Quote:
Quote:
Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
Because now our economy is so large that it depends on it. The economy wouldn't have 'crumbled' before, but it was miniscule compared to what it is now. not something to be envied.
America has one of the highest depression rates in the world, and the level of happiness has continued to decrease as the economy has grown. Our economy does not need to be as big as it is now, though it probably would be even if we didn't have public education.
Quote:
Quote:
Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories.
(utter bullshit i don't believe that you actually believe that)

Quote:
Quote:
There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
Yeah, it was a time when there was far scarcer chance at upward mobility, when kids started coal mining at 5 and didnt quite till the day they died. Ahh, those were the days. 
Funny--they have apprenticeships in many European countries, yet they don't seem to have those problems.
Quote:
Quote:
If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
BULLSHIT. You libertarians just always take it for granted that these govt programs have been absolute failures. However, there is increased upward mobility. my father for example grew up very poor in the middle of a mid-west state small town and was eventually able to become a surgeon through hard work and perserverence. wouldnt of happened w/o public education though, doctors in pre-public education times always had to have rich enough parents to fund their education. public education increases the number of competitors for jobs so that the more skilled members are found to be our doctors rather than just the more priviliged.
Interesting. How many rags to riches stories do you hear about now vs. 100 years ago? Back then, the American dream was alive and well. Immigrants would come over without a penny to their name, and many became tycoons within a generation. Don't see much of that now.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Dragonaut

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,219
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922109 - 07/23/04 08:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
HA! Don't forget, that's how America began.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Dragonaut]
#2922125 - 07/23/04 08:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
WI_Shroomer_Skater said:
Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
HA! Don't forget, that's how America began.
Ya. By fighting against that.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922133 - 07/23/04 08:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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and what about the native americans before that? they're weren't exactly fairly traded with or anything.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2922138 - 07/23/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, and that was wrong. So what?
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922143 - 07/23/04 08:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
We've been through this before. There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
yes we have, and you certainly haven't proved a thing. you do accept that land is owned by a society though. and those who choose to live on that society's land must conform to the laws that society has created or else accept the consequences. that's the whole idea of political sovereignty within borders. its like when a father says "well while you live under my roof, you'll live by my rules"
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America has one of the highest depression rates in the world, and the level of happiness has continued to decrease as the economy has grown. Our economy does not need to be as big as it is now, though it probably would be even if we didn't have public education.
source? I only ask for one because i've read very different sociological studies. one saying that the u.s. has something like the third highest quality of life in the world (which includes happiness), another that has said that self-reported happiness has stayed about the same as the economy has grown. one thing is for sure: life expectancy and health has drastically improved. And what are you trying to argue? that the u.s. is relatively unhappy because it has public education (surely the happier countries are still industrialized countries who have public education systems) or are you trying to argue that public education actually makes people unhappy (which is both extremely illogical and correlatory)?
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Interesting. How many rags to riches stories do you hear about now vs. 100 years ago? Back then, the American dream was alive and well. Immigrants would come over without a penny to their name, and many became tycoons within a generation. Don't see much of that now.
not only is that purely anectdotal, but you didnt even live back then so you don't know how many stories there were being told. and obviously those stories would be exagerrated, glamorized and dramatized with each telling. plenty of people have gone from rags to riches nowadays--it might take a bit longer because there is not as much free oil and gold to be discovered and exploited.
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Funny--they have apprenticeships in many European countries, yet they don't seem to have those problems.
ahh, you mean for older children? i have no problem with that. i do not support government funding for adults' education. i think less people should be going to college than currently do. waste of time for many of them (and for tax dollars) it seems to me.
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vampirism
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922147 - 07/23/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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well its just that America wasn't quite founded on fighting against theft and evil and such- it was founded on the blood of many innocents as well.
thats all not really arguing anything major here
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922179 - 07/23/04 09:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
come to think of it, isn't that what you're little 'land-value tax' is all about? in order to live on a particular piece of land, you must pay money or else men with guns will come to take it from you and/or remove you from your land.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922195 - 07/23/04 09:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
We've been through this before. There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
yes we have, and you certainly haven't proved a thing. you do accept that land is owned by a society though. and those who choose to live on that society's land must conform to the laws that society has created or else accept the consequences. that's the whole idea of political sovereignty within borders. its like when a father says "well while you live under my roof, you'll live by my rules"
Ah, so if we were to become a dictatorship, you would accept that because if you don't like it, you can leave. Correct?
Quote:
Quote:
America has one of the highest depression rates in the world, and the level of happiness has continued to decrease as the economy has grown. Our economy does not need to be as big as it is now, though it probably would be even if we didn't have public education.
source? I only ask for one because i've read very different sociological studies. one saying that the u.s. has something like the third highest quality of life in the world (which includes happiness), another that has said that self-reported happiness has stayed about the same as the economy has grown. one thing is for sure: life expectancy and health has drastically improved. And what are you trying to argue? that the u.s. is relatively unhappy because it has public education (surely the happier countries are still industrialized countries who have public education systems) or are you trying to argue that public education actually makes people unhappy (which is both extremely illogical and correlatory)?
http://www.newdream.org/discuss/myers.html
"Consider 1957, when economist John Galbraith was about to describe the United States as the Affluent Society. That year, Americans? per person income, expressed in today?s dollars, was $8700. Today it is $20,000. Compared to 1957, we are now "the doubly affluent society"?with double what money buys. We have twice as many cars per person. We eat out two and a half times as often. In the late 1950s, few Americans had dishwashers, clothes dryers, or air conditioning; today, most do.
So, believing that a little more money would make us a little happier and that it?s very important to be very well off, are we indeed now?after four decades of rising affluence--happier? Are we happier with espresso coffee, caller ID, suitcases on wheels, and Post-It notes than before?
We are not. Since 1957, the number of Americans who say they are "very happy" has declined from 35 to 32 percent. Meanwhile, the divorce rate has doubled, the teen suicide rate has nearly tripled, the violent crime rate has nearly quadrupled (even after the recent decline), and more people than ever (especially teens and young adults) are depressed."
What I'm arguing here is not that public school has made people unhappy, but that a better economy does not equal a better society.
Quote:
Quote:
Interesting. How many rags to riches stories do you hear about now vs. 100 years ago? Back then, the American dream was alive and well. Immigrants would come over without a penny to their name, and many became tycoons within a generation. Don't see much of that now.
not only is that purely anectdotal, but you didnt even live back then so you don't know how many stories there were being told. and obviously those stories would be exagerrated, glamorized and dramatized with each telling. plenty of people have gone from rags to riches nowadays--it might take a bit longer because there is not as much free oil and gold to be discovered and exploited.
Maybe it was a bit anecdotal, but it does come to show that you do not need a public education to move up in society.
Quote:
Quote:
Funny--they have apprenticeships in many European countries, yet they don't seem to have those problems.
ahh, you mean for older children? i have no problem with that. i do not support government funding for adults' education. i think less people should be going to college than currently do. waste of time for many of them (and for tax dollars) it seems to me.
Good something we agree on.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922209 - 07/23/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
come to think of it, isn't that what you're little 'land-value tax' is all about? in order to live on a particular piece of land, you must pay money or else men with guns will come to take it from you and/or remove you from your land.
No. You do not get taxed for living on a piece of land, only owning the title to it. Therefore, landlords would be taxed, but not those living on their property. And it is only taking the income gained from that land. This is not stealing, as the land belongs to society, so any income generated by it should also go to society.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922225 - 07/23/04 09:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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TaoTeChing said: yes we have, and you certainly haven't proved a thing. you do accept that land is owned by a society though.
Huh? What society has title to land?
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and those who choose to live on that society's land must conform to the laws that society has created or else accept the consequences.
You are conflating society with government, the two are not the same. Is a dictator who makes the laws society? Is a president who issues executive orders the society?
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that's the whole idea of political sovereignty within borders. its like when a father says "well while you live under my roof, you'll live by my rules"
No, it's not the same. Government is not my big daddy. You make look upon government as a child looks upon a father, but some of us are adults.
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Interesting. How many rags to riches stories do you hear about now vs. 100 years ago? Back then, the American dream was alive and well. Immigrants would come over without a penny to their name, and many became tycoons within a generation. Don't see much of that now.
Yes and those immigrants were often NOT the recipients of any public education. Funny how that works out...
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not only is that purely anectdotal, but you didnt even live back then so you don't know how many stories there were being told. and obviously those stories would be exagerrated, glamorized and dramatized with each telling.
Just because you lack the imagination to make it on your own does not mean it doesn't happen or didn't happen. There are historical records of it happening... Andrew Carnegie Amadeo Peter Giannini (founder of Bank of America) Henry J. Kaiser (founder of Kaiser Steel & Kaiser Permanente) The above were found in a total of 3 minutes on internet searches. Check out their education levels...
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922238 - 07/23/04 09:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ah, so if we were to become a dictatorship, you would accept that because if you don't like it, you can leave. Correct?
the society owns the land so it must be the society that creates the laws through a democratic form of government. if the society chose to have a dictatorship then yes, i would leave. just as i would leave if i were placed in pre-wwII germany.
and 35 to 32% from one survey on something as extremely unreliable as self-reported happiness (and it wasnt even "are you happy or not" i take it, but "how happy are you") is completely statistically irrelevant.
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it does come to show that you do not need a public education to move up in society.
sorry what 'showed' that? and people rich enough to make the proper investment to become extremely rich would have needed capital to begin with. and in earlier times when america was being founded, there were a lot more beginning opportunties as it was a whole new market. and that only accounts for business opportunities. please explain how an uneducated person is going to get a good salary job. no public education is not an absolute prerequisite for social mobility, but you cannot possibily argue that it does not significantly increase it.
so you believe that a society does not have political authority within the boundary of the land that it 'owns'?
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922269 - 07/23/04 09:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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TaoTeChing said:
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Ah, so if we were to become a dictatorship, you would accept that because if you don't like it, you can leave. Correct?
the society owns the land so it must be the society that creates the laws through a democratic form of government. if the society chose to have a dictatorship then yes, i would leave. just as i would leave if i were placed in pre-wwII germany.
Answer my question: Does the fact that you can leave make it ok? I'm sure the Jews that stayed behind and went to the concentration camps would love to hear your answer.
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and 35 to 32% from one survey on something as extremely unreliable as self-reported happiness (and it wasnt even "are you happy or not" i take it, but "how happy are you") is completely statistically irrelevant.
How so?
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it does come to show that you do not need a public education to move up in society.
sorry what 'showed' that? and people rich enough to make the proper investment to become extremely rich would have needed capital to begin with. and in earlier times when america was being founded, there were a lot more beginning opportunties as it was a whole new market. and that only accounts for business opportunities. please explain how an uneducated person is going to get a good salary job. no public education is not an absolute prerequisite for social mobility, but you cannot possibily argue that it does not significantly increase it.
Like I said, you can start off with an apprenticeship at some manual labor job. This will keep enough money rolling in to keep your head above water(assuming you're not irresponsible enough to have children before you can afford to raise them). Meanwhile, there are libraries available for those who wish to educate themselves. Most intelligent people I've met have learned most of the things they know outside of school. There are many people who simply take a test to get their G.E.D. so they can finish High School early. Anything school can teach you can be learned independently.
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so you believe that a society does not have political authority within the boundary of the land that it 'owns'?
I believe that political authority is not absolute, and must respect people's natural rights in order to be legitimate.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Evolving
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922291 - 07/23/04 10:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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TaoTeChing said: and people rich enough to make the proper investment to become extremely rich would have needed capital to begin with.
Just because you lack the imagination and drive to do it does not mean it isn't possible. People still come to this country with nothing, work hard, save and and build wealth.
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... and in earlier times when america was being founded, there were a lot more beginning opportunties as it was a whole new market.
Bullshit. You remind me of that guy who was the head of the patent office and said it should be shut down because there were no more things to be invented. People like you who lack imagination and fortitude will never do it because they believe it can't be done. Those who are open to possibilities and are willing to work hard are the ones who accomplish things, not the closed minded nay sayers.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Evolving]
#2922333 - 07/23/04 10:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Huh? What society has title to land?
that was directed to ss7 and his personal views on the subject
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You are conflating society with government, the two are not the same.
you've said this before and i still disagree. a democratic government is designed to represent the interests of a society.
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Is a dictator who makes the laws society?
not if he/she is the head of a non-democratic government.
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Is a president who issues executive orders the society?
he represents the society if he is democratically elected, yes (though as a side note i feel the electoral college is undemocratic, i felt so the first time i heard about it, before 2000).
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that's the whole idea of political sovereignty within borders. its like when a father says "well while you live under my roof, you'll live by my rules"
No, it's not the same. Government is not my big daddy. You make look upon government as a child looks upon a father, but some of us are adults.
that was referring to the society's roof and the society's laws. i understand you disagree that it is the society's roof or that the society is represented by a democratic government.
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Just because you lack the imagination to make it on your own does not mean it doesn't happen or didn't happen.
nowhere did i say it didnt happen i said there was no evidence that it happened more back then than it does now.
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Just because you lack the imagination and drive to do it does not mean it isn't possible.
again, i never said it was impossible, just that it was less likely to happen w/o public education and that publicly-funded education brings children up closer to the playing field making for better competition when they first enter the market.
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922349 - 07/23/04 10:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does the fact that you can leave make it ok?
what do you mean 'make it ok'? if i cast my vote and the country is going in a way so completely opposite of my own views, than I leave. There were disagreeing minorities in pre-wwII germany, they would have been more helpful by leaving than by staying and being forced to fight for the nazis.
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and 35 to 32% from one survey on something as extremely unreliable as self-reported happiness (and it wasnt even "are you happy or not" i take it, but "how happy are you") is completely statistically irrelevant.
How so?
How so?! because its a small number (3%) its only one survey (scientific experiments must be repeated to be make a theory) and self-reporting is always an unreliable method of surveying on even factual objective questions--psychology openly admits that--much less on something as abstract as someone's 'happiness'.
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I believe that political authority is not absolute, and must respect people's natural rights in order to be legitimate.
unfortunately natural rights are just something humans have created on their own to justify why they 'deserve' what they deeply desire. open your mind a bit, read a book/take a class on metaethics.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922376 - 07/23/04 10:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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TaoTeChing said:
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Does the fact that you can leave make it ok?
what do you mean 'make it ok'? if i cast my vote and the country is going in a way so completely opposite of my own views, than I leave. There were disagreeing minorities in pre-wwII germany, they would have been more helpful by leaving than by staying and being forced to fight for the nazis.
Forget about how they could have been more helpful. Does the fact that they could have left justify the fate of those who stayed behind?
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and 35 to 32% from one survey on something as extremely unreliable as self-reported happiness (and it wasnt even "are you happy or not" i take it, but "how happy are you") is completely statistically irrelevant.
How so?
How so?! because its a small number (3%) its only one survey (scientific experiments must be repeated to be make a theory) and self-reporting is always an unreliable method of surveying on even factual objective questions--psychology openly admits that--much less on something as abstract as someone's 'happiness'.
First off, how do you know it was just one survey? Second, what about the other statistics mentioned in the same paragraph?
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I believe that political authority is not absolute, and must respect people's natural rights in order to be legitimate.
unfortunately natural rights are just something humans have created on their own to justify why they 'deserve' what they deeply desire. open your mind a bit, read a book/take a class on metaethics.
I've taken an Ethics course in college already. The book we read briefly attempted to debunk natural rights, and failed miserably.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922413 - 07/23/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've taken an Ethics course in college already. The book we read briefly attempted to debunk natural rights, and failed miserably.
I said metaethics--http://www.free-definition.com/Meta-ethics.html what you took was a class in normative ethics.
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First off, how do you know it was just one survey?
well you only mentioned one survey with an unconvincing 3% difference. don't surveys usually have +-% error?
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Second, what about the other statistics mentioned in the same paragraph?
well the divorce rate could easily be due to the women's liberation movement and secularization so that couples don't feel forced to committ to a marriage as much as they used to. the crime rate could be due to the drug war and any number of other things. this is all extremely, extremely correlatory to the point where its practically useless. "Well in this time period, X rose while Y decreased. Therefore X causes Y to decrease".
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922428 - 07/23/04 11:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does the fact that they could have left justify the fate of those who stayed behind?
you're begging the question that there is moral objectivity, which there is not. If there is, once again, please prove it to me. No philosopher during history has ever been able to do so, so you'll forgive me if I sincerely doubt your ability to do so. If youre asking me whether I disagree with the actions of the dictator, yes i do, which is why i voted (and hypothetically would have been politically active) against him in the first place.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922451 - 07/23/04 11:24 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Are you or are you not in a political forum, and do you or do you not argue in support of your opinions of what is right and what is wrong? If there is no moral objectivity, then why should we listen to you? It's just your opinion, and everyone else's is just as valid, so why argue at all? How can we argue over right and wrong if there are not certain values which are universally recognized?
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922486 - 07/23/04 11:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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silversoul7 said: Are you or are you not in a political forum, and do you or do you not argue in support of your opinions of what is right and what is wrong? If there is no moral objectivity, then why should we listen to you? It's just your opinion, and everyone else's is just as valid, so why argue at all? How can we argue over right and wrong if there are not certain values which are universally recognized?
there is arguing over the best way to accomplish a goal that both sides desire. there is refuting misinformation, offering pertinent information and interpreting that information. but a lot of my time here I do in fact try to spend convincing (particularly the libertarians on the board it seems) that they are not unquestionably and objectively right but in fact merely hold a different set of values. But yes, trying to argue what is a right value to hold and what is a wrong value hold is mostly fruitless. One can only rely on persuasion (like C.L. Stevenson's emotivism). Persuasion is done by finding a root desire that both sides have and then showing how your solution satisfies that common desire better. However I think you exagerrate that all of the discussions on this board are simply arguing what values are right and which are wrong. What values would you say are 'universally recognized'? Killing others? What about in self defense? What about existentialists? Killing children? Infanticide used to be common. Theft? Communism. Blasphemy? Atheists. Suicide? Heaven's Gate Cult. There is no value that is universally recognized. People even disagree with psychological egoism, that individual happiness is universally valued.
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aleighe
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2937991 - 07/28/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh will ya just piss off with those lame stories.
The fact is if America had any pansy John Kerry or Bill Clinton as a president when the 9/11 happpened it would of all being hug giving. G. B went out there.. got the barstards.. killed the ****.. in the middle of returning democracy to a depleated Iraq..has all the big terrorist scared and in hiding..and is in the end ( which may be far away ) giving all of us fairy pro everything countries a chance at a more peaceful life.
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silversoul7
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: aleighe]
#2938002 - 07/28/04 08:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The fact is if America had any pansy John Kerry or Bill Clinton as a president when the 9/11 happpened it would of all being hug giving.
Most retarded statement of the day
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Phred
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2938028 - 07/28/04 08:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Indeed. Clinton wouldn't have been giving any hugs. He would have lobbed at least six and maybe as many as ten cruise missiles into the Tora Bora area of Afghanistan.
pinky
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