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vampirism
Stranger


Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: zappaisgod]
#2921152 - 07/23/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The same logic can be used with the education argument.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2921157 - 07/23/04 03:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quite so
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Tao
Village Genius

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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: zappaisgod]
#2921191 - 07/23/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right, that was my point. I accept that if the society/state decides a certain amount of money must fund protection somewhere, than that's where my tax dollars will go. Same goes for education and welfare. Otherwise, renounce citizenship and leave.
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Evolving
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921216 - 07/23/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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National defense is a function subject to free-riders who benefit, whereas education and welfare benefit specific individuals who should pay for them. Other individuals who do not benefit (such childess people, workers who could lose their jobs to beneficiaries of education and all others who are not receiving taxpayer supported education) should not pay.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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vampirism
Stranger


Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Evolving]
#2921224 - 07/23/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thats all good and fine, but a loophole would be showing that everyone benefits through education and welfare indirectly, or by showing how it is not beneficial for a citizen to have National defense
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: MAGnum]
#2921487 - 07/23/04 05:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not by the popular vote
So what? The Electoral Vote is what counts.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: vampirism]
#2921495 - 07/23/04 05:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why should someone have to pay for ANYTHING at all via taxes? What if youre a pacifist and don't want to pay for the military? What if youre an anarchist, and don't want to support the state at all?
Because some things are constitutional uses of our money.
Education is not one of them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921503 - 07/23/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What did he/she do to deserve such a situation?
What did I do to be required to pay? None of my sperm was involved.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Tao
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2921583 - 07/23/04 05:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What did I do to be required to pay?
You continue to be a citizen of the U.S.A. and thus follow its laws (including tax laws).
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921594 - 07/23/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great. Now show me where education is a constitutionally allowable expenditure.
Meanwhile I'll point you towards the 10th amendment.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Tao
Village Genius

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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2921606 - 07/23/04 05:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
* Article I - Section 8 . . . provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . . . . . . To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper . . . . .
I know you (and others) interpret this passage differently, but unfortunately, it is the judicial branch's interpretation that matters.
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921619 - 07/23/04 06:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers (enumerated in the Constitution) connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." James Madison, 1751 ? 1836 4th President of the United States ?Father? of the Constitution
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2921620 - 07/23/04 06:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
* Article I - Section 8
. . . provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .
. . . . To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper . . . . .
I know you (and others) interpret this passage differently, but unfortunately, it is the judicial branch's interpretation that matters.
You could have (more accurately) just said "no" I can't show you.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Dragonaut

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,219
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President *DELETED* [Re: Zahid]
#2921658 - 07/23/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by DragonautReason for deletion: .
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Zahid]
#2921715 - 07/23/04 06:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Bush is a shitty president, but for very different reasons than this professor gave.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Dragonaut]
#2921737 - 07/23/04 06:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
WI_Shroomer_Skater said: To all the right-wingers, who don't want to pay taxes to help their fellow Americans, who think poor people are poor because they're lazy:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so.
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If it wasn't for public education, our economy would crumble.
Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
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People need an education to earn a living, but people also need to pay for that education one way or another.
Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories. There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
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If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
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How are they supposed to make a place for themselves in the economy?
By being willing to work hard be responsible.
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If it weren't for public education some people would never be able to break free of poverty, and because of their inability to advance in society they would continue to be looked down upon by you, and they would not be given the opportunities they need to succeed.
And this is different than the current system how?
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How are the "lazy" people supposed to make something of themselves if they have nothing, and you won't help?
I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
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You'd like to sit there and complain about them and how they are such a drain on the economy/society, but it is your poltics that keep them where they are and further perpetuate the problem.
Nope. It's the fact that they weren't born rich, and haven't considered all the options available to them. Not my fault.
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So you have no right to complain about funding that goes to public schooling, because without it... sure, you're kids would be just fine, but what about the thousands of others who never had a shot because their parents couldn't provide it for them without the government's assistance?
There are jobs which do not require much(if any) schooling. Even several U.S. presidents never attended school. And for those that want an education, there's always home-schooling.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Tao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922003 - 07/23/04 08:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so....I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
if you don't want to pay for it, leave the country. Good luck finding a country with much of an economy or living standard that does not have public education.
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Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
Because now our economy is so large that it depends on it. The economy wouldn't have 'crumbled' before, but it was miniscule compared to what it is now. not something to be envied.
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Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories.
(utter bullshit i don't believe that you actually believe that)
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There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
Yeah, it was a time when there was far scarcer chance at upward mobility, when kids started coal mining at 5 and didnt quite till the day they died. Ahh, those were the days. 
Quote:
If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
BULLSHIT. You libertarians just always take it for granted that these govt programs have been absolute failures. However, there is increased upward mobility. my father for example grew up very poor in the middle of a mid-west state small town and was eventually able to become a surgeon through hard work and perserverence. wouldnt of happened w/o public education though, doctors in pre-public education times always had to have rich enough parents to fund their education. public education increases the number of competitors for jobs so that the more skilled members are found to be our doctors rather than just the more priviliged.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Tao]
#2922024 - 07/23/04 08:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TaoTeChing said:
Quote:
I would gladly help my fellow Americans. I just don't like being forced to do so....I'd gladly give money to charity(if I had money to spend) to help people. I'm just against being forced to do so.
if you don't want to pay for it, leave the country. Good luck finding a country with much of an economy or living standard that does not have public education.
We've been through this before. There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
Quote:
Quote:
Then why didn't it crumble before public education existed?
Because now our economy is so large that it depends on it. The economy wouldn't have 'crumbled' before, but it was miniscule compared to what it is now. not something to be envied.
America has one of the highest depression rates in the world, and the level of happiness has continued to decrease as the economy has grown. Our economy does not need to be as big as it is now, though it probably would be even if we didn't have public education.
Quote:
Quote:
Schools in this country are little more than mind control factories.
(utter bullshit i don't believe that you actually believe that)

Quote:
Quote:
There was a time when you could simply get an apprenticeship at some working class job and learn the job just as well.
Yeah, it was a time when there was far scarcer chance at upward mobility, when kids started coal mining at 5 and didnt quite till the day they died. Ahh, those were the days. 
Funny--they have apprenticeships in many European countries, yet they don't seem to have those problems.
Quote:
Quote:
If a family is not making enough money to put their kids through school, how are the future generations supposed to compete with the priveleged upper-class?
How do they compete with them now? They don't. If this is the purpose of public education, then it has failed.
BULLSHIT. You libertarians just always take it for granted that these govt programs have been absolute failures. However, there is increased upward mobility. my father for example grew up very poor in the middle of a mid-west state small town and was eventually able to become a surgeon through hard work and perserverence. wouldnt of happened w/o public education though, doctors in pre-public education times always had to have rich enough parents to fund their education. public education increases the number of competitors for jobs so that the more skilled members are found to be our doctors rather than just the more priviliged.
Interesting. How many rags to riches stories do you hear about now vs. 100 years ago? Back then, the American dream was alive and well. Immigrants would come over without a penny to their name, and many became tycoons within a generation. Don't see much of that now.
--------------------
  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Dragonaut

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,219
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: silversoul7]
#2922109 - 07/23/04 08:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
HA! Don't forget, that's how America began.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Former professor: Bush not qualified for President [Re: Dragonaut]
#2922125 - 07/23/04 08:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
WI_Shroomer_Skater said:
Quote:
There is no justification for stealing from someone just because they occupy a particular piece of land.
HA! Don't forget, that's how America began.
Ya. By fighting against that.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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