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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
is there a place?
    #2913634 - 07/21/04 09:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

that doesnt revolve around private property and money?


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: is there a place? [Re: BleaK]
    #2913639 - 07/21/04 09:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

When are you going to learn? Money is simply a 'least common denominator' that allows for the more efficient transfer of wealth. To answer your question though, no, you missed out on the Soviet Union by about fifteen years. Better luck next time.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: is there a place? [Re: BleaK]
    #2913646 - 07/21/04 09:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ever hear of Rainbow Gatherings?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: is there a place? [Re: BleaK]
    #2913666 - 07/21/04 09:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, welcome to the real world.


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: is there a place? [Re: BleaK]
    #2914394 - 07/22/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Native Australian Aborigines may truly be the "Last Real People" on the planet. That is the only place I can think of where "society" has not crept in and where the concept of money and land ownership are as alien as I wish they could be in "the real world".


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: is there a place? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2914733 - 07/22/04 03:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hey Gern, would you mind if I took your computer from you? Would you be pissed if my buddy took your car? How bout you Bleak?

If everything was "free", who in the hell would work to produce those good for you? Money is just a medium of exchange. The price mechanism is just a way of allocating scarce goods and resources. That is all it is. Just the fact that you can access this forum means that you have acquired scarce goods and resources that most people in this world would envy.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: is there a place? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2914975 - 07/22/04 07:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Hey Gern, would you mind if I took your computer from you? Would you be pissed if my buddy took your car? How bout you Bleak?

If everything was "free", who in the hell would work to produce those good for you? Money is just a medium of exchange. The price mechanism is just a way of allocating scarce goods and resources. That is all it is. Just the fact that you can access this forum means that you have acquired scarce goods and resources that most people in this world would envy.




at no point did i express desire for "goods".

you point about envy is meaningless as u cannot speak for others.

ty for the tip on aboriginies.

BY the way..
i DONT like the fact that the govt has stolen the land i was born on.

cars theifs i dont mind, as i dont have a car, and would never want one.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (07/22/04 07:38 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: is there a place? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2914990 - 07/22/04 07:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Native Australian Aborigines may truly be the "Last Real People"




What makes these people more real than some guy working at Mcdonalds?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: is there a place? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2915058 - 07/22/04 08:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

At the end of the day -

The world does not have to revolve like that. We are in a position where we do not have to go so fast, work so long every week, or work so much for the sake of simply paying bills.

We live in an economic system designed to keep the masses in servitude and dependance, with as little chance of freeing themselves from it as possible. Yet with enough gloss to make sure there is perpetually a carrot dangled in front of the proletariat.

This is because megolomaniacs who control nations and corporations need to retain their position to feel powerful and important.

Why can't we all work half as much, the world go half as fast? Because that does not suit the egos of those who live in the upper eschalons of society. I mean why the hell are we all so conditioned to have this crazy work ethic and feel bad if we just want to chill?
Well the answer is just above.

With the advent of the technology we have available, machines could produce so much for us (so much more then they do) and we could have so much more time. But this if taken too far busts down the economic systems that exist, and brings people onto a level, and our 'leaders' don't want that. Of course if it increases productivity machines are brought in, but never to the extent that people can be free. Only to the extent that they can be degraded, cheapened; and either worked as much as before the machines were installed or simply sacked and abandoned.

It's all about the power structure.

I mean for instance the top 10 investment firms in London have just announced record profits. Yet they have also announced massive losses on their pensions.....How can that be? Someone is being greedy and ensuring that the status quo of wealth distribution is being upheld. (Those who are going to their repetitive meaningless jobs everyday and creating record profits for the bosses and corporations are being massively neglected).

And what's that? Another CEO has awarded himself a 50% payrise while the workers get less than the rate of inflation.....

Also look around at any modern city, you will find empty premises everywhere. Yet construction abounds, keeping the economic status quo, while many usable and suitable properties rot. Why? economics

Economics are basically bullshit dreamt up by someone. Prices are false and often ficticious. Markets are regulated and controlled globally by WTO + WB - why? to kep the economic status quo. To keep the people at the top at the top. It is a construct.


Edited by CJay (07/22/04 09:04 AM)


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: is there a place? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2915360 - 07/22/04 11:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Quote:

Native Australian Aborigines may truly be the "Last Real People"




What makes these people more real than some guy working at Mcdonalds?




It is their phrase, not mine. But I like it. Native Aborigines have no need for money, personal belongings, land - no ownership of anything. The world around them belongs to all of us and every other living thing on it. Instead of placing importance on "stuff" - which is a psychoses so prevelant in western society - they place importance on each other. Their relationships with their friends and family, their gods, and their planet are the only things in their lives.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these relationships reach levels that simply cannot be comprehended by those of us with mortgages, student loan payments, shitty cars, shitty jobs, kids who are failing sixth grade, and parents who beat us because of their own shitty jobs and mortgage payments.

It is only my opinion, but that makes them more real than me. Or you. Or some kid working at McDonalds.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: is there a place? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2915467 - 07/22/04 12:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I was basically piggy backing on the phrase "real workers" (which always seems to amaze me). I can respect those that don't need "things" and I also can find those that hold the same traits as the Aborigines (Their relationships with their friends, family, their gods, etc.) while having things. I really don't know the reason why Aborigines choose to have nothing (If in fact it's a choice or just a cultural tradition) but having things doesn't necessarily preclude you from being a "real person" IMHO. We are basically adapting to what is presented to us and i'm sure if the Aborigines were put in the same situations as I am they would act quite similar.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: is there a place? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2915497 - 07/22/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...as I am they would act quite similar.

When they choose to incorporate themselves into "society", they don't act quite similar. There are a ton of great books on Aborigines - but I'm heading out the door to go to work so I don't have time. Check Amazon for "Aborigines" and "Dreamtime". Some GREAT stuff.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: is there a place? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2915536 - 07/22/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When they choose to incorporate themselves into "society", they don't act quite similar




not immediatly for sure. But i'd bet after a while they would grow custom to his/her environment just as I would adapt to his/hers over time. But they are a more simple people which in and of itself is pretty interesting.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: is there a place? [Re: CJay]
    #2916444 - 07/22/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I mean for instance the top 10 investment firms in London have just announced record profits. Yet they have also announced massive losses on their pensions.....How can that be?



So you have no clue how pension plans generally work then?

Often companies use an outside firm to manage their pensions. These outside firms then invest the money. The employers company may make money but the firm doing the investing may not do as well.

Greed need not factor in at all.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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