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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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I am reading Bernard Goldberg's "Arrogance". It is his follow up to "Bias". He has an interview with Bob Costas, and here are a couple of quotes from Costas:
Costas: "Some black pundits as well as some members of the establishment press position it this way: Anyone who disapproves of Alan Iverson, even if they stipulate his positve qualities, is either racist or insufficiently sensitive to a young black man who is just "keepin' it real". To which I say, "Bullshit." Why are punks and gangsta poseurs more authentically black than those who carry themselves with dignity and respect? How warped and maybe even racist is that idea?" Goldberg: "So what is that really about?" Costas: "It's about political correctness and it's about race as a weapon...The truth of the matter is that many black pop culture figures today are such demeaning caricatures of black men that if they were invented by white racists, everyone, black and white, would call for their heads, and I would be first in line. You could hardly create more damining images of young black men, and in many cases their supplicant black women, than you can see and hear every day in hip hop videos and elsewhere." I thought it was a strong point, and I wanted to share it with my kind friends at the Shroomery. I wonder what you think of that thought. In an age desperate for racial reconcillition, the images put out from the black community are not very positive. It is an interesting notion; that even if the KKK themselves were trying to portray black people in a bad light, they couldn't possibly do a better job than the leaders of hip hop culture. Just thought I would throw it out there. May God Bless Bill Cosby and his crusade. -------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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I agree, and it's unfortunate. But this black stereotype would not be so common if it didn't sell. There are some underground hip-hop artists who are trying to work against this image, but like I said, they're underground, not mainstream, and therefore aren't getting as much publicity.
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Lt. Commander Registered: 07/04/04 Posts: 15,663 Loc: Final Frontier Last seen: 11 years, 3 months |
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The only people leading the hip hop culture are those that profit from it. As long as people are buying that shit up its always going to exist.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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this is dumb.
why exactly does "hip-hop culture" equate to "black culture"? most heads/bboys/breakers I know are asian and latino - look into the history of hiphop - it isnt racial; it's urban. does rock music equate to caucasion culture? Um, no. does the typical demogogic, strungout, wreckless, sexist, and money-eyed rockstar represent the white race? Um, no - that's silly. Is rock music damaging to "white culture"? give me a break. are all hiphop artists thugs? hell no. maybe if Bob Costas (why is he such an authority on hiphop culture anyways?) knew what he was talking about other than the few minutes he spent watching corporate MTV, he would have a different opinion. I bet he couldnt even name 3 hiphop records...
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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I'd say the problem with "black culture" isnt music, it's poverty and poor education. Last time I checked, poor white people faced practically (not all - but damn close) the same problems that poor black people face....
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 4 months |
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This has to do with politics or activism or law exactly how?
This is a cultural or sociological issue, in my opinion. Tell me which forum you'd like to see this moved to and I'll send it there. pinky
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unintended sideeffect Registered: 05/28/03 Posts: 842 Loc: OR Last seen: 2 years, 7 months |
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I personally think that Sociology is relevant to this forum in particular - but that's just me.
-------------------- There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -- Howard Zinn
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Errorist Registered: 03/06/02 Posts: 27,660 Loc: To the limit! Last seen: 7 hours, 42 minutes |
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I might would support changing the name of the forum to "Politics and Sociology".
-------------------- This space for rent
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unintended sideeffect Registered: 05/28/03 Posts: 842 Loc: OR Last seen: 2 years, 7 months |
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I like it. I hereby officially second the notion.
-------------------- There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -- Howard Zinn
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CEO DBK? Registered: 11/08/02 Posts: 32,665 Loc: Ripple's Heart |
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... am I the only person that reads the damn bylines around here?
Come here to discuss politics, social change, security and legal issues smells like social change to me... sure, Bob Costas doesn't know shit about hip hop, but if you get past that, really, he's speaking more to a side effect of what Cosby cites as the main problems, that is lack of education and poor parenting. Granted, quality pop culture role models are few and far between if you're looking for something more than bling a mean jump shot or a few gold records, but I feel like the demand that has given rise to the symptoms that Costas is referring to stem from the deeper issues that Cosby is addressing. You learn values as you grow, but some values are equally taught to you through your parents and family. If parents aren't instiling the right values in their kids, then the kids can only be expected to go so far on their own. Love one another, help each other out, family and friends are of the utmost importance, have pride and respect, be honest, lift up the seat when you pee. If your mom doesn't ingrain those things in your head, fiddy cent sure as hell isn't going to do it. -------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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I didn't intend to offend anyone. When someone talks about political correctness, maybe you should focus a little more on the word political.
"Black issues", "African American issues", "Racial Reconciliation", whatever you want to call them are very prominent political issues in today's society. To deny that is to deny the dynamics of today's political landscape itself. I can't believe that I actually had to explain that to anyone on in July, 2004. The particular book that I am reading is concerned with liberal media bias, and that itself is a political issue. These comments were made in the context of how the media portrays (and also does not portray) black Americans. I am calling bullshit. This is a political issue. It might not be your favorite, but if so get off my thread. I myself am part of the black community. I live and work in the black community. The last census pegged my neighborhood at over 90% black. I see the problems, I know the politics, and I hear the gunshots on a daily basis. I closely follow the politics of the black community. There are probably not too many other conservatives that have the hands on experience where the rubber meets the road on black issues. I go to community meetings, I assist in community projects and I do what I can to involve myself. I may not be the end all and I will tell you out front I don't have all the answers, but don't try to silence my voice on these political issues. They are political issues. Funny as it seems, one of the points of the book that I cited is how both the messenger and the message often get attacked for even broaching the subject in a meaningful way. I thought my post was honest, forthright, and not in any way mean spirited. Pinkshark comes along and tells me it isn't relevant to political discussion. Bio tells me it is dumb. Paradis tells me that my whole outlook on this is "void". I would respectfully disagree. If you don't want to deal with the issue, move it to any forum that you fucking want. Maybe if I included an angle that George Bush wants to kill black children and feed their spleens to rich white people that work for Haliburton it would have been a popular thread. -------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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CTA Registered: 04/13/04 Posts: 1,296 Last seen: 18 years, 9 months |
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Way to set things straight Jesus
. I know exactly what you are talking about as well, I worked in the middle of the 'ghetto' on the south side of Chicago. We had a brutal murder in broad daylight in front of our store, its a mess. And to think of what the hip-hop or rap artists of today are portraying of the lifestyle is nuts, it isnt real. They are creating a false image of the bad life being the way things are, what to expect when you get older.And what is the solution? Hand outs, programs, blaming everybody but yourself. Not to say hand outs or programs are bad, but they are extremly abused. Its time for everybody to come together to solve this mess, it cannot be done only by legislation.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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I went a little further than just saying Costas was dumb...
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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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I live in the black community Bio. You can tell me with all honesty that popular black culture doesn't have an influence on everyday black youth. You may really believe that. I am telling you point blank that you are wrong. The images in the media have an impact. I am surprised that this is even disputed. I guess it is all part of having an honest debate. I am all for getting to the heart of the matter.
-------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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dude, of course it has an influence. but get real - the influence of music is overshadowed by shit schools and lack of empowering jobs and the breakdown of the family structure.
your argument reminds of the arguments against heavy metal in the 80s..."oh, heavy metal devil music makes kids kill themselves..." nevermind their lack of friends, nevermind the parents are never home, never mind their untreated depression...it's the evil music!
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 4 months |
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JesusChrist writes:
I didn't intend to offend anyone. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not offended. When someone talks about political correctness, maybe you should focus a little more on the word political. The term "political correctness" as you well know, actually has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with euphemisms. I have noted ironically for years that the very phrase designed to describe convoluted euphemisms such as "sanitation consultant" is in itself a convoluted euphemism. What is the political approach to the situation Costas describes? Should we campaign for the election of legislators who will ban the showing of Hip Hop videos or prevent them from being aired on the radio? What is the activist approach to the situation? Should we initiate protests in the street in the hopes of getting MTV to stop showing these videos? Should we persuade youth to boycott the producers of Hip Hop music? Should we hand out leaflets to black mothers urging them to purge their childrens' Hip Hop collections? What is the legal approach to the situation? Should we hire class action trial lawyers to sue the music industry for increasing the crime rate in the country? Show me a tie in, why don't you? It is true that the description of the forum mentions the discussion of social change, but the idea is that this social change can be accelerated, decelerated, initiated -- whatever -- through the use of politics, activism, or law. The way your initial post was worded, I saw no tie in to politics, activism, or law. I saw a guy making a sociological (or philosophical, or spiritual) observation about what he perceives as the sorry state of black musical culture today. As it happens, I personally find Hip Hop music (regardless of who produces it -- thug or law-abiding citizen) to be both irritating and boring enough that I avoid listening to it whenever possible, so I'll have to rely on Costas's opinion that the lyrics and videos are as bad as he says they are. But even though I personally will walk out of a bar that plays hip hop I still can't see how Hip Hop can be eliminated (or even that it should be eliminated) through political action, legal action, or grass roots activism. If enough people can post some intelligent points about the phenomenon, I have no objection to letting it stay here. However, you will undoubtedly get more (and possibly more thoughtful) analysis of the situation in the S&P forum than in this one. Up to you. pinky
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Dark Stranger ![]() Registered: 02/02/04 Posts: 931 Loc: Riding a basslin |
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"Love one another, help each other out, family and friends
are of the utmost importance, have pride and respect, be honest, lift up the seat when you pee." - afoaf ain't that what "keepin it real" meant in the early days of hip hop? Swopping gangland gunfights for break battles in parks? Listening and making music for love, not for MTV? Not getting sucked in by the bling and forgettin the soul in your music? Increasing the peace? Gaining self respect and behaving in a respectful manner? Wasn't this the aim of pioneers like Afrika Bambataa with their movements such as Zulu Nation? Now modern comercial rappers have turned the phrase on its head. There's so little consciousness in most hip-hop lyrics.... Sign of the times I guess. Having said that to demonise the rappers and their influence on society is (I agree with bio) a copout. People don't have to follow their example, and in fact I wonder why people do? And how these rappers got to have these opinions? Is it because of their maltreatment and neglect by society? Change their scope of opportunity, and I'm sure their lyrics will change too. (Or pray individuals come along who like Bambaata think for themselves and set a higher agenda). Hip hop is an important cornerstone of modern music. Like every genre there is good and there is bad material out there. Mostly I personally like the beats, but find the lyrics absolute pap. In no way do these lyrics end up turning me into a gangland murderer tho. Maybe I'm confident enough in myself feel no need to copy their behaviour to feel kool. I'd rather keep it real. "We had a brutal murder in broad daylight in front of our store, its a mess. And to think of what the hip-hop or rap artists of today are portraying of the lifestyle is nuts, it isnt real" - Redo - Seen "don't believe the hype!" - Public Enemy *cjay puts iron maiden on the record deck and plays it backwards in order to soak up more of satan's charms* Man i talk some shit! (I hope it's good shit tho) Edited by CJay (07/22/04 10:19 AM)
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CTA Registered: 04/13/04 Posts: 1,296 Last seen: 18 years, 9 months |
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People in these areas hardly have parenting, they listen to these agressive drug abusing musicians (if you can even call them that) all the time. They know every song word for word and express similar feelings.
It is a big part of the issue, but you guys are missing Jesus' point completly.
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Refraction Registered: 10/15/02 Posts: 4,773 Loc: London UK Last seen: 4 months, 13 days |
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Most of these artists do actually come from similar neighbourhoods as the kids they are influencing. So what makes the music, is it a reflection of life in the ghetto or is it simply a marketing tool? Maybe both.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Adventurer Registered: 05/22/04 Posts: 174 Last seen: 8 years, 10 months |
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Quote: I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I actually agree with Bio here. I'll take it a step further though. Poor whites have it even harder than poor blacks, because of all the social programs in place for blacks, like scholarship quotas and afirmative action. Oh, and Meth. I know of no black man that messes with Meth! Too smart I would think.
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Anonymous |
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Edited by paradis (07/22/04 05:13 PM)
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Son Of God Registered: 02/19/04 Posts: 1,459 Last seen: 11 years, 8 months |
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Bio, I agree with you about the cycle of poverty and the breakdown of the family structure being the most significant factors. I am not blaming all of black American's problems on hip hop culture. I was just reading a book and thought I would share an interesting quote.
Personally, I think the breakdown of the black family plays the biggest influence in the problems associated with the black community. Statistically, children of one parent homes have a much greater incidence of problems. The number of children born out of wedlock in the black community is alarming. Babies having babies. Here is a blueprint to avoiding poverty by William Calston, a member of the Clinton administration. 1) Finish High School 2) Marry before having a child 3) Wait until you are at least 20 to have that child 8% of people who do all three of those things wind up poor. 79 percent of those who fail to do those things wind up in poverty. I think many of the problems associated with the black family stem from leftist liberal policies (Great Society programs, Welfare, The War on Poverty, Government Housing, etc.) Paying people not to work was never a good idea. Providing benefits to women and children only if a man was absent only incentivised one parent families. A girl could get pregnant, drop out of school, have a baby and get both a monthly check and a free home. As Walter Williams has said, well intentioned liberals have done more damage during the last 50 years than hundreds of years of slavery, oppression, and Jim Crowe laws. They have destroyed the black family. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Imagine the outrage in your city if white people invaded the ghettos... Lets all get together and do this. Some of us can start with pimpin the hos. We can whore out their young women. We can violently attack black citizens while they walk the street and take their possessions. We can shoot and kill black men and women at an alarming pace. I got an idea, we could get in cars and drive by people and shoot them. Could you imagine the outrage if white people started doing that to the black community? Well guess what, it is happening. Except it isn't white people doing it, it is black people doing it to their own people. It happens every fucking day and instead of outrage it is heroically glamorized in hip hop culture. And Paradis, I was just paraphrasing the quote from Costas. When the KKK comes out and says bad things about blacks, nobody pays any attention to them. The role models of black pop culture today are not summarily dismissed like the KKK would be. Their message is embraced and emulated. -------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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Resident Cynic Registered: 10/01/02 Posts: 5,385 Loc: Apt #6, The Vill |
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-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Ten ThousandThin ![]() Registered: 11/02/03 Posts: 3,171 Loc: The Shining Void Last seen: 15 years, 11 months |
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Don't be a hater...
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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listen - first of all, im not white nor am I some sheltered suburban kid. I've lived in rough neighborhoods and have experienced all that we're talking about firsthand. please try not to be so presumptous.
regarding your rant about liberalism being the cause of crime and teenage pregnancy... um, ok. cool - glad you agree with me that the break down of the family unit is a major cause of urban plight. I'm not sure if I agree with you that liberalism is the seed of this breakdown - but I'll save that long debate for later. that's a bit of tangent, no? As a hiphop fan, I'd say that the music is the reflection of the current conditions of the urban life (not "black culture" as I pointed out - hiphop is not just a black thing - that is ignorant). I'd say the music is not the cause of these problems. Hiphop isnt the reason why daddy is in prison. Hiphop isnt the reason why the manufacturing plant down the road just shut down and laid a thousand off. Hiphop isnt the reason for crack addiction. Hiphop isnt the reason why the schools are not learning institutions but rather daycares. you know, gangs and violence and sexism did exist before the birth of hiphop in the mid '70s. just thought I'd point that out. I'd say that the same reasons that caused these things pre-hiphop are pretty much the same reasons of today. do some hiphop artists glorify these urban plagues? Some do, most dont. But regardless, where are the parents to turn off the stereo if that's the case? why target just the music? These problems run deeper... Also, earlier I pointed out that the same problems that affect black communities also affect poor white communities - is hiphop also to blame? um, no. is it rock music? um, no. is heavy metal the reason why white middle class teenagers kill themselves? um, no. Did Marilyn Mansion make Kleboid and Harris shoot up their school? Give me a break.
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Ten ThousandThin ![]() Registered: 11/02/03 Posts: 3,171 Loc: The Shining Void Last seen: 15 years, 11 months |
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As long as black kids walk around calling each other niggers, talking about playin' bitches and hos, and bragging about clothes, material things and getting wasted I think it is fair to blame alot of black entertainment culture for setting bad examples. Black kids don't see lots of examples of black men and women succeeding through education, frugality and hard work, they see rappers and ballers. Bill Cosby is dead on.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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...yeah, when white kids walk around cursing, getting wasted, and being materialistic (like alot of white people do), it is the fault of the rock musicians.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: exactly. "Every time black people want to have a good time, ign'ant-ass niggas f--- it up! ... Can't do nothing! Can't keep a disco open more than three weeks! Grand opening! Grand closing! Can't go to a movie the first week it comes out! Why? Cause niggas are shooting at the screen! ... I love black people, but I hate niggas, brother. Oh, I hate niggas!" -- Chris Rock i think that if Martin Luther King were alive today, he would be saying the same things that Cosby is saying. the black subculture of today really needs to be altered or eliminated for real change to occur.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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I dont understand. every race has people that do not use proper grammer, who are sexist, who are materialistic, who are violent. There are just as many white trash as there are ghetto thugs; there are just as many ghetto thugs as there are latino bangers. why do you single out the "black subculture" (whatever that means) to be eliminated (whatever that means)?
why is this even a racial issue? Seems to be more of an economic issue, and to single out just one race for the problems that effect all poor populations is to totally miss the target.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: Bill Cosby is a great man for coming out and denouncing the ghetto thug lifestyle that so many in the mainstream urban culture glorify. of course, he was immediatley labeled an "uncle tom" for stating his views and trying to change black culture for the better. i applaud him for actually coming out and denouncing this garbage that most black youth idolize. i hate white trash just as much as i can't stand thug blacks or gang banging latinos. you're right, every race has its filth. white people can't actually slam the black sub-culture (which is rap subculture, not hip-hop but gangsta rap) without being labeled racist. luckily Cosby, a man who came from worse conditions than most blacks are raised in today, has the balls to speak up. /rant Edit: incase anybody thinks i'm out of line, i have black friends who i've heard critisize black ghetto culture far worse than anything i've said here. i'm in no way racist towards anybody. Edited by synthesis (07/23/04 12:34 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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did I say anything about racism? In fact, I want to get away from race because it clouds this issue.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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i'm not talking about racism either. i would also applaud a white person that spoke out against white trash rednecks.
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Anonymous |
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: Do you think that "hip hop" music is more representative of the lives of black people in the "urban life", or white people? If I were to count the awards handed out at hip-hop award shows, wouldn't they be mainly to people of color? Quote: When a form of music encourages a certain lifestyle it should have some, but not all, of the blame levelled at it. Quote: We aren't discussing the effect on the target audience, per se, we are discussing the fact that hip hop and mainstream culture encourages role models that are not positive. They perpetuate the exact stereotypes that black people shouldn't be falling into. When black kids growing up in the ghetto see that the only sucessful black men that the media fixates on are either rappers or athletes it sends a clear signal that that is the only way for blacks to get ahead. The NAACP awards even go along with this, giving the majority of their awards to such bastions of culture as R Kelly and other "rappers". Hip Hop culture encourages a lifestyle devoid of morality, where women are "bitches" or "ho"s, meant to be simply used for sexual gratification by a "pimp" or a "playa". Quote: Of course they do. Noone is saying that it's simply the fault of the music. Quote: The crime statistics for impoverished black regions and cities are much higher than impoverished white areas. Not too many drive by shootings over crack cocaine at the trailer parks. Quote: Were the Turner Diaries "the reason" why McVeigh and Nichols destroyed the AEM Federal Building? No. Were they a blueprint, a printed suggestion and encouragment of those actions? Yes.
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 11 months |
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Did anyone ever answer bio's question:
Quote: ?
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: what, does the fact that he's not a black male and is a white sportscaster make his comments any less valid?? i guess only black people are allowed to criticize their own culture. nobody is saying he is the "authority" on hiphop.
Edited by synthesis (07/23/04 08:51 PM)
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 11 months |
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the thread was presented as if it was.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: Hiphop represents urban culture, not black culture. Quote: Yes, but not all. Quote: Why should hiphop artists (or musicians in general) be role models in the first place? where are the parents? Would you consider the members of Slipknot to be role models for the entire white race? Sounds silly, right? Quote: And whose fault is this? If the media is indeed fixated on just musicians and athletes, I would blame the media itself not the athletes and artists. If "black kids growing up in the ghetto" have such narrow sights so as to only see being a rapper or athlete as being the only paths toward success, who's fault is it? I would blame the parents, the media, the schools, and the individuals first. Quote: I am not versed on NAACP awards nor do I pay any attention, so I am ignorant on the subject. Just what award did Nelly receive and what were the reasons? Quote: How familiar are you with hiphop anyways besides just what is played on Viacomm's MTV? Just curious, because if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that not all hiphop -not even a majority- promotes anything of the kind. In fact, most hiphop is positive. Not sure if you live in an area where such events occur, but perhaps you should look into going to a bboy competition - they happen in my city on a monthly basis. You'll see very positive and uplifting things going on. Also, just how moral is rock music for that matter if being sexist means being immoral? Last time I checked, there were plenty of scanty-clad females in rock videos, groupie culture was a staple in rock tours, and getting wasted and fucking whatever girl came along was a behavior of rockstars. Why do you target just hiphop? Quote: ...but ya'll are sure fixated much more on hiphop than poverty, unemployment, terrible public schools, and the breakdown of the family unit. I am just curious why - seems like hiphop is completely and utterly overshadowed by these highly-influencial and shaping elements. Quote: Let's see your souces that say impoverish black communities have much higher crime rates than impoverished white areas. I'd say they are probably about the same just of a different set of criminal acts. Quote: ...but plenty of meth heads breaking into houses to steal VCRs with a gun in hand. Plenty of child molestation. Plenty of wife beating. Quote: Should William Pierce be held accountable for the actions of others? No. Something tells me McVeigh and his white-supremist friends would have probably still killed people even if they never had read that book - perhaps it wouldnt have been a truckbomb, but it would have been something else. A few years ago, a few dumb white kids did what they saw on Jackass - should the producers and stars of Jackass be held accountable and sued for the actions of others?
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: Who said only black people can criticize black culture? Bob Costas is certainly not a authoriity on hiphop culture, therefore his opinion shouldnt be held with much credibility. Should I ask the local grocery store clerk whether or not to sell my Cisco Systems stock?
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: Would you speak out against Slipknot for not being good role models for the children of the entire white race?
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 11 months |
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Quote: it seems to me like this is more about finding a way to say "see? its their fault. we shouldnt try to help them out, they have done it to themselves" thus cleansing oneself of any feeling of the need to help others out.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: all i was saying is that bob costas's opinion shouldnt be discredited just because he isnt an "authority" on hiphop culture. i was just trying to question what it takes to be an authority on rap culture.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: how? because bob costas has an opinion about hiphop culture? on a side note, i really can't believe im defending bob costas here, because i can't stand him (anybody seen the interviews with Vince McMan?). but on this issue i think he's correct.
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everydayjunglist Registered: 09/29/03 Posts: 398 Loc: va |
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Quote: Yes. all you just did is cite 1 group, not a whole genre of music that we are talking about.
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 11 months |
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goth music?
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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ok. should all country music musicians be role models for the entire white race?
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Two inch dick..but it spins!? ![]() Registered: 11/29/01 Posts: 34,247 Loc: Lost In Space |
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Quote: Shitheads are shitheads. -------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Rogue State Registered: 04/17/03 Posts: 1,047 Loc: Wales (yes it is Last seen: 15 years, 10 months |
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Quote: Slipknot isn't goth music, its nu-metal.... A by-product of Korn and MTV.
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Village Genius Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 7,935 Loc: San Diego Last seen: 8 years, 11 months |
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no i mean isn't goth music a genre of music that generally sets a bad example for white kids?
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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You brought up a number of good points, I'll try to address them all.
Quote: The majority of hip-hop that I see on television when I happen to glance at BET involves black people glorifing a life of sexual promiscuity, making their fortunes by selling drugs, and talking about criminal acts such as murder as if they are good things. Quote: I think that I actually went a little bit off topic here. The issue I was bringing up is that the media, and the black community themselves, portray rappers and athletes as the ideal role model for black children. It's as if they are saying "You niggers are too dumb to be anything but rappers or athletes, but if you do that, you'll be rich, so aim for that!". I think that is why the comment about the KKK and hip-hop culture saying the same thing to black kids came to be. White children don't have to look to SlipKnot, or other artists or athletes, as their sole source of role models. They can easily look at their community leaders, businessmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. The white community (as a whole, sorry for the overgeneralization) promotes these individuals more than the black community does as role models for their children. You don't see hordes of white kids running around dressing like Tupac ro wearing basketball jerseys. They realize that this isn't their only way to make it. Black kids are given rappers and athletes as their role models, then when an educated doctor (Cosby) comes out and says that they need to work harder and stop being ignorant, he gets blasted for it. Why? For telling black kids that they are smart enough to work hard and get educations and make it that way, rather than having to be a gangbanger, a rapper, or throw a ball a great distance? Being told that they don't have to grow up to be "niggers" isn't a bad thing. Quote: http://www.africana.com/articles/daily/bw20040311naacp.asp The NAACP, not the media or the parents, nominated mainly hip-hop artists for their image award. Not business leaders, not politicans, but rappers. To their credit, Van Dross won the award. Quote: It's Viacom, one M, and I don't watch MTV, VH1, or BET any more than when I accidentally hit them as I switch through the channels. I do listen to that type of music on the radio when friends are with me and it seems to be more silence due to the explicatives being removed than anything else. Just because a small, underground, hip-hop community is positive, doesn't mean that the entire community is. The majority of the black guys that I work with act more like Tupac (and talk more like them) than Tribe Called Quest, J5, Blackalicious, etc. Would you agree that the majority of black youth try to act out the "cool black guy" image portrayed by mainstream hop-hop, over the positive black image promoted by these undeground hip-hop sessions? Quote: Rock music might have a tone of getting laid alot, but it doesn't refer to women as "bitches" or "ho's". The songs might describe some violence, but it's more of the "I put my fingers into my eyes..." type than "Shoot motherfuckers for crack, bitch bitch bitch, fucking nigger" type that I hear on friends hip-hop CD's. Quote: Again, it's because the music encourages it and provides role models for it. Do you think that black kids living in the ghetto watch the news more, or MTV/BET more? Now, with watching that type of media and being shown that that is the "cool" way to act, they try to duplicate it. The breakdown of the family unit could easily be caused by the overall attitude towards ho's and bitches' portrayed in hip-hop music. When songs are about being a "playa" and fuckin mad bitches, it doesn't really encourage the youth to go out and develop a meaninful, trusting love-based relationship, does it? Quote: I don't really know where I could find those sources at, but if you want me to, I'll do a conditional search for them. The conditions; 1) If I find that impoverished black areas have higher amounts of violent crimes than impoverished white areas, you'll condede that I proved my point. 2) I'll also be including areas with a high population of Native Americans, so that the "they've been oppressed" issue won't come into play. Native Americans were oppressed much more than black people have been, so they should be doing much worse and commiting far more crimes, somehow I doubt this will be the case. Deal? Quote: Dr. Pierce is dead, so it's a nonexistant point. Also, McVeigh wasn't a white supremacist. One of his coconspirators, I forget which one, had a wife of Philipino or Hawaiian ethnicity. The media put up "racist books" next to McVeighs picture, and the next day, he was a neo-Nazi. This isn't about legal culpabilty, it's about the images that are portrayed. Black children, through mainstream media, are being taught about how to live by people who glorify a lifestyle that is negative. Living a gangbanger lifestyle leads to the horrible conditions that exist in the ghetto. I don't think that hip-hop artists should be sued, or censored, but I think that if black people, as a whole, have aspirations that involve not living in the ghetto and being seen as "niggers" by other people, they need to develop better role models, more positive values being expressed through music, and listen when men who have "made it" from the ghetto, such as Cosby, give them advice.
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: I don't see it as being a "bad" influence, per se. They aren't encouraging promiscuity, the itemization of women, a lifestyle of violence and murders. I know quite a few computer tech's who make 6 figures who are goth types. I'll also admit that I can't understand most of the words in "Goth" songs, so I can't really be held as an authority. Also, the media doesn't portray goths as the idealized white person. How many black males o you know that try as hard as possible to act like rappers? Wearing the little pantyhose hat, basketball jerseys, "bitches and hos", etc etc?
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: Ok. Now, when I turn on MTV I see white people doing pretty much the same thing but in a different format. And I also know plenty of white kids are who quite far from being upright citizens and college-bound...is the crap music they listen to to blame? No. Quote: I agree. There are not many community leaders, businessmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. in impoverished areas - this, however, is not the fault of hiphop. It is the result of poverty, terrible public schools, young mothers and fathers, etc. There arent too many community leaders, businessment, doctors, lawyers, etc. in the white trailer park, either. Quote: Well, Cosby is correct so as long as he actually targets the source of these problems and not scapegoat a genre of music. Quote: Well, that's just retarded. But you have to put it in perspective - not many kids give a shit about the NAACP award show and certainly not the ones who are involved in gangs. Quote: Quote: There are thugs, and there are people who give a shit. I think it all goes back to parenting and early socialization to be caring/sensitive or not. The music isnt making people act this way. I dont know how old you are, but surely you can understand there was crime in impoverished areas long before the birth of hiphop in the 1970s, right? Just for the record, the hiphop community isnt as small as you think. Come visit NYC or LA or Chicago or Detroit and you'll see how large and influential it is. Quote: Same difference man. Can you say bias? Quote: Dont know. How many white kids watch the news more or MTV more? Quote: Like I said in previous posts, of course the music is an influence, but it completely overshadowed by other influences. These problems have been predated by the birth of hiphop in the 1970s. It's just easy to point fingers at music instead of addressing the issues of shitty public schools, unemployment, drug addiction, etc. Quote: Umm, no thanks - I'll still like to see your sources. Quote: Of course they need better role models - we all need role models who arent on the TV and are actually accessible and real. We should also not expect The Spectacle to raise our children. Personally, I think targeting a genre of music is a waste of time considering the fact that there are greater and more problematic and much more urgent situations at hand. "Heavy metal devil music makes kids kill themselves!" Nevermind the divorced parents who are never around, never mind the bullies at school, nevermind the untreated depression....
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: You see that when you turn on MTV? I don't watch it much, but when I do, it's either the newest boy-band or pop girl, or black musicians. Quote: The trailer parks around here are mainly filled with construction workers that are all driving, it seems, brand new 35,000$ vehicles. I bet the majority of trailer dwellers are there because of their lack of ability to properly use credit, rather than being "poor". Quote: Costas himself said it was "pop culture" and "hip hop and elsewhere". He isn't saying it's solely due to rap music, and that if rap were to change, blacks would suddenly all be doctors and lawyers, but the main cultural forces, even those in the black community, keep pushing rappers and athletes as role models, while not showing doctors and other figures. Quote: But it shows that the "main group" fighting for black civil rights has fallen into this trap as well. As long as it's a rich black man, they try to make other black kids fit that mold as well. Music and sports, thats sad. Quote: If you really want to tie them in that way, I could say that crime has skyrocketed since hiphop was introduced. Obviously other factors are at play here. If their were no MTv, BET, VH1 or "bad hip hop", do you think that black youth would still follow the paths that they do today? No role models telling them how great it is to "fuck bitches" and be a "playa", why would they do it? You aren't saying that they are genetically disposed to these traits, are you? Quote: Ah, the influence of urban music on New York. I think I'll pass. Quote: Name some of the bigger "white rock" groups in existance today and some of the biggest (by popularity, on both counts) black music stars of today. DO you think that black youth are more likely or less likely than white youth to emulate and act as the musicians that they listen to? Quote: I don't think that anyone yet, including myself or Costas, have said it's solely the factor of music. If you had 500 kids of mixed races and let 250 fo them listen to nothing but hank williams(sr) and the other 250 listen to nothing but some extreme black rapper, do you think that they'd share the same values? Quote: So you concede that I'm right? Quote: I think that you are so ego-tied to "hip hop" that anything said further will continute to be, in your eyes, an assault on the music. If you can't realize that black kids listen to music that shapes their values, in part along with other things, then you just aren't able to see reality.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: So, are you agreeing with me that the music isnt the cause of urban trouble? Good - because it isnt. Okay. I looked into the NAACP Image Awards. Here's a link: Alicia Keys Up For Seven NAACP Image Awards from MTV.com. Here's a quote: There are 41 categories in the NAACP Image Awards, which cover motion pictures, television, music and literature. The winners are determined by a panel of over 300 entertainment business professionals and NAACP leaders. See, these Image Awards highlight and give a headsup to entertainment artists. You made it seem like the musicians were being given awards in spite of "community leaders, business professionals, doctors, lawyers, etc." - that these people are being overlooked because the NAACP is so blind and only wants to recognize athletes and musicians. Are they not supposed to have award ceremonies? And if you read the list of awardees (and google around for more recent listings), you'll see they are not that big of a deal. The youth are being corrupted by Nelly Furtado, Jill Scott, Brian McKnight, Outkast...oh no! Call Tipper Gore! Quote: what trap? Giving out entertainment awards to harmless musicians during an entertainment awards show? Are they not allowed to do this? If you really think that Nelly Furtado is corrupting the youth, you have more problems than can be addressed here. Quote: Yes, many other factors are at play. Hiphop isnt the problem nor an excuse for the bad choices of individuals. Quote: Sans fashion, trends, dance styles, and purchasing habits, yes - the kids would be pretty similiar so as long as they still lived in run-down areas with little opportunity and failing public schools. Travel much? Ever been to South America? Hiphop isnt as commonplace there, but there is more crime. Is it the bossanova that is making kids pick pockets? Quote: Genetically disposed? huh? Do you even read what I post? I have already stated the probable reasons for urban troubles - repeatedly. Scroll back up and open your eyes while you read - it helps. Quote: I'm not so sure that kids "emulate and act as the musicians that they listen to" as much as you seem to think. They are more influenced by their parents/families and how they were socialized during school. Quote: ...but yet you have, for all practical purposes, focused on hiphop and ignored the other causes, namely: public schools, bad parenting, lack of quality and empowering employment, etc. Quote: Now there's a quality experiment...give me a break. Hmm were these kids already listening to country music or rap to begin with? I grew up in a military household, so I've lived all over the country/world. I've known people who were into country music - some were idiots, some were not. I've known people who were into hiphop - some were idiots, some were not. I think the differences (as I have stated before) go back to parenting and schooling and socialization and other economic factors. Individual choices also are a big factor. Did country music make my friend get drunk and beat up his girlfriend even though that's what the country musician sung about? No. Quote: umm, no. I havent seen any statistics yet. where are they? Quote: Give me a fucking break kid. Have you even read my posts? I have stated repeatedly that blaming music for the negative actions of individuals is just retarded - no matter what genre. I have said that when heavy metal was demonized in the Reagan 1980s that I found it be ridiculous. Here's the thing: I hate heavy metal. Now how does that play into my bias? Quote: Once again, of course the music that we chose to listen to influences us. In fact, every sensory/informational/socializin Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to go listen to Frankenchrist and go molest children and worship Satan because that's what music makes me do.
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: It isn't the sole cause. It perpetuates it. I can't say that more simply than that. Quote: So the NAACP, as I have said and was my inital point, is making a statement that the only awards show that they offer with the title "image award" is for entertainers? Can't black people do anything but entertain us? If white people had an awards show featuring colored people as "images" and "role models" and all of the recpients were entertainers, would you think that some people might construe that to mean that the colored people were being told that the most they could hope for was to sing or dance? Quote:
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: The NAACP Image Award Show is about giving awards to entertainers. from http://www.naacpimageawards.net/ The NAACP Image Awards is an exciting, star-studded salute to the best in entertainment. Honorees, presenters and performers have included many of the major celebrities in America as well as International political figures and dignitaries. There are 35 competitive categories in the fields of motion picture, television, music and literature. There are several honorary awards including the President?s Award, the Chairman?s Award, Entertainer of the Year and The Image Award Hall of Fame. So, why is it such a crime that an entertainment award show gives awards to entertainers? And what does this have to do with anything? How exactly is this creating crime and unemployment? If you ask any kid in poor, urban areas about the NAACP Image Awards, they'll tell you that they dont give a shit - especially the ones that are involved in gangs or dealing or robbery. Do you really think that gangbangers sit down and watch the NAACP Image Award Show? I'm guessing you live far, far away from this environment that we're discussing, no? And whats so bad about giving a headsup to people who have made it in the film or television industry? Many of us only hope to be so successful. How many millions have you made this year? How many films have you produced? Quote: Do you even read my posts?? I already said that music (and pretty much everything else for that matter) is an influence on individuals. I just say that it pales in comparison to the tremendous effect that unemployment and poor public schools have on people and their communities. I have said repeatedly that to target music to such a degree that you have is weak, weak strategy and reaks of Puritanism. Once you focus on the major causes of these problems instead of masterbating over those evil hiphop records, then I'll take you seriously. Quote: I'd say they would learn that hardwork and dedication will lead you to success. Putting out records and touring is quite hardwork and takes alot of business sense, but you wouldnt know that. Quote: Let's see these instructions. Let's see some lyrics of popular hiphop artists that are overtly communicating instructions on committing crimes. This should be good Quote: Correct. Why do people commit criminal acts? Usually it is because they are fucking desperate and were not instilled good values by their parents or schooling (or themselves, for that matter). Quote: You sure are a fan of these bizarre, extreme, and contrived hypothetical questions. I do not agree to your ridiculous premise that hiphop encourage people en masse to commit crimes, etc. as much as poor public schools and lack of substantial and legal financial opportunities. Quote: Of course popular music influences popular fashion and other weak and insignificant trends. I have already stated so. But I do not think that popular music directly influences extreme, anti-social behavior to the amount that you think. And the rare times it does, such behavior is not the fault of the distant musician, it is the fault of the parents for not being around to turn this music off. It is the fault of the individual him or herself. Why are you so inclined to point fingers at those so far removed and not at those who are directly responsible? Quote: Yes, and "hip-hop and it's effect" pale in comparison to the real influences of one's life. To focus just on music trends is to make a huge error. Quote: huh? I'll need to actually see these great statistics first before I make any judgement call. See how it works? I need to see if they are actually fair, relevent, and accurate. Again, where are they? And why do you make statements claiming such knowledge, but yet do not have the statistics at all? The moon is inhabited by giant aardvarks! where's your source? Dont have any, but I'll go try to find one, I guess. But first you must agree to concede your arguement if I do find a source. Deal? Umm, whatever dude. Where's your source You just dont want to admit that I'm right... Quote: You get so upset over a messageboard that you resort to condescension and presumption? Quote: I can tell you are not familiar with the Frankenchrist album - you need to actually read up on music censorship history and the lame aruments of the likes of Tipper Gore made in the 1980s. You might actually learn something about this subject instead of just talking out of your ass.
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: The answer to one of your last question is "two", I won't say which one it is ![]() Quote: Yes, but you contradict yourself so much it's hard to discuss an issue effectivly with you. Here you are saying it's an influence, but later on you'll try to minimalize that influence. Quote: "I" have? Where did I do anything but say that it's a PART of the problem? Why is it when you, G Daddy Hip Hop, says it's a part of the problem, thats fine, but when I say it, it's my racist puritanical instinct as a white man? Quote: I think I posted the definition of "Topic" somewhere around here, if I didn't, www.dictionary.com has it. I try to stay "on-topic". If we are discussing the impact of hip hop culture, don't you think that it makes just a bit of sense to address, say, the impact of hip hop culture? Just a suggestion. Quote: Why do you always have an insulting tone to your "voice"? Are you so uptight that you can't discuss an issue without trying to degrade a person that, you think, disagrees with you? My job is a broker for airline deals for a major private jet company, so I know what dedication and hardwork mean. I don't think that snoop dogg puts forth as much effort on his tour bus smoking blunts of KB as I do when I'm trying to sell 5 G4's to a customer. I'm using snoop dogg here because he is one of my favorite "rappers", so I know a bit about him. Being a serial killer takes dedication and effort, I'd think that it wouldn't be the best role model though. Quote: You are kidding, right? You don't think that hip-hop talks OVERTLY about shooting people, selling drugs? You think that I won't be able to find gigabytes of lyrics of "murdah, murdah, kill, kill" from rap music? You are nearing the end of your rope here. Quote: Since you won't answer any question that I pose to you, I'll do the same for you. You need to learn that a debate and a monologue are quite different. I'm using this forum because I don't want to just right a blog and have no input, I am interested in a two sided discussion of the issues. If you won't answer a question, then I'll have to doubt your seriousness or your mental aptitude. Quote: Just to help me out, and any other readers who are asking this question, where did I indicate any amount that I think it involves in influencing behavior? Did I say that every kid that listens to rap will shooot people? I don't think so. I think (Is this the 500th time i've typed it in only two days) that I've said that it is a PART of the problem. Stop telling me, or assuming, what I think and start LISTENING. LIIISSTTEEENN. :-) Quote: Because thats what the entire discussion is about! Read the topic! Quote: Start another post about any of the other factors and i'll deal with them solely, a point that you appear to have clipped out of what I said. I'm talking about this particular influence here, thats the "tttoooopic". Quote: No, I think that you did that. I've tried to be as fair and as patient with you as I can. I think that we aren't on a level playing field here, and I'm soon to just stop responding to you. Quote: I put that into babelfish and it came out "Ok, you are right, I greatly exaggerated what I said". I searched for "Violent rap lyrics" and I came up with some whacko Nazi-Type site, however, hear are some lyrics that openly encourage violent acts. Your turn to post the ones I asked about, or to answre my questions, or to reply with anything but profanity and ignorance. http://www.martinlutherking.org/ "Niggas in the church say: kill whitey all night long. . . the white man is the devil. . . . the CRIPS and Bloods are soldiers I'm recruiting with no dispute; drive-by shooting on this white genetic mutant. . . . let's go and kill some rednecks. . . . Menace Clan ain't afraid. . . . I got the .380; the homies think I'm crazy because I shot a white baby; I said; I said; I said: kill whitey all night long. . . . a nigga dumping on your white ass; fuck this rap shit, nigga, I'm gonna blast. . . . I beat a white boy to the motherfucking ground"; "Kill Whitey"; --Menace Clan, Da Hood, 1995, Rap-A-Lot Records, Noo Trybe Records, subsidiaries of what was called Thorn EMI and now is called The EMI Group, United Kingdom. -------------------------------- "To all my Universal Soldier's: stay at attention while I strategize an invasion; the mission be assassination, snipers hitting Caucasians with semi-automatic shots heard around the world; my plot is to control the globe and hold the world hostage. . . . see, I got a war plan more deadlier than Hitler. . . . lyrical specialist, underworld terrorist. . . . keep the unity thick like mud. . . . I pulling out gats , launching deadly attacks"; --"Blood for Blood"; Killarmy, Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, 1997, Wu-Tang Records, Priority Records, The EMI Group, United Kingdom. Sorry that these are mainly anti-white lyrics, and not just lyrics espousing random violence. I'd like to see where Manson told people to shoot up schools now, if you please.
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Stranger Registered: 05/24/04 Posts: 10,920 |
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Quote: Agreeing with the obvious (hiphop is a cultural influence) and also stating that that influence is so minimal as compared to other influences in the realm of poverty and lack of opportunity is not a contradiction. Quote: I think it comes with the territory of having to repeat oneself over and over again. Quote: You said: Their are thousands of rap/hip-hop songs that state explicit instructions to murder, deal drugs, treat women as sexual objects, beat women, etc. So, let's see a few of these thousands of explicit instructions to murder, deal drugs, etc - not just some obscure random quote from some virtually unknown artist. Let's see this great influence that is causing all these problems! Quote: You have most certainly implied and/or directly said that music influences behavior. you said: The issue I was bringing up is that the media, and the black community themselves, portray rappers and athletes as the ideal role model for black children. It's as if they are saying "You niggers are too dumb to be anything but rappers or athletes, but if you do that, you'll be rich, so aim for that!". The majority of the black guys that I work with act more like Tupac..Would you agree that the majority of black youth try to act out the "cool black guy" image portrayed by mainstream hop-hop, over the positive black image promoted by these undeground hip-hop sessions? Again, it's because the music encourages it and provides role models for it. :: when asked about the causes of poverty, unemployment, terrible public schools, and the breakdown of the family unit Black children, through mainstream media, are being taught about how to live by people who glorify a lifestyle that is negative. How do you think that black kids in these run down areas react when the majority of the mainstream music that they choose to listen to involves people who started out just as they did, but made it big? Think they might be someone that they'd listen to? Think that the lyrics have ANY influence whatsoever? You've already touched upon the Goth "movement", so I won't bring up that obvious reference. Maybe I could tell you how school dress was during the earily 90's with the apprearance and emerging popularity of grunge rock, I'm sure I remember seeing alot more flannel. If you honestly believe that they don't emulate their artist/genra of choice, then I don't know what to tell you. Quote: And like I have said, the main point of the what Costas said was ridiculous and reactionary. Quote: ...and there is not much to the irrational belief that hiphop creates poverty and crime and lack of opportunity. This topic is dead and buried. Quote: Yes, you were quite condescending. Remember pointing out my spelling error? Remember saying that I was so "ego-tied" to hiphop that couldnt possibly comprehend any criticisms of hiphop? If you want to be treated with respect, dont act like a bitch. Quote: Oh, good job finding some random, unknown lyrics! Those are such a great cultural influence - all the millions of poor kids are just totally brainwashed by them. Give me a break. Quote: First of all, I never said Manson was guilty of telling people "to shoot up schools." I said the fingerpointing by those weak enough to blame music for the poor behavior of a few is irrational and a slippery slope - just plain dumb. And do you really think "Menace Clan" and "Killarmy" (whoever the fuck they are) are as influential as Marilyn Manson? I can easily quote some white power Oi! - but I wont fall into the trap that you're in by claiming these lyrics are influential on mainstream (poor people included) America. So I wont... I'm pretty much done with this thread. Hiphop isnt causing poor black kids to rob and not go to college. Maybe you should actually talk to some of these kids and see whats going on in their lives. You could use this as a reference instead of your "I work with a black guy who acts like Tupac and he's a dumbass" therefore hiphop is bad - nonsense. Open your eyes just a little. peace out G.
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-=HasH=- Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 851 |
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Quote: It's funny that you didn't even bother to edit your post and remove this after you clearly saw that I did just that. Scroll down and your question will be answered ![]() Quote: I'm shocked! I did the exact thing you asked me to, and you still turn it around to act as if I am ignorant. Sorry for providing you with the exact information that you asked for. Wu-Tang Records is an unknown company? I'd post some of 50 cent's lyrics, but you'd just say that since it's not the hip-hop that you listen to, it's non existant and irrelevant. This is why I didn't bother compiling any stats for the other issue we were talking about Quote: Apples V Oranges, round II Quote: I suppose the song "You's a ho" by Ludacris would prove my point and not yours, so you wouldn't accept it. Songs by major artists extoling the benefits of being a pimp wouldn't prove that the majority of the music debases and objectifies women. http://display.lyrics.astraweb.c "Pistol in hand homie, I'm down to get it poppin' Once I squeeze the first shot (gun shot), you know I ain't stoppin' Till my clip is empty, I'm simply Not that nigga you should try your luck with, or fuck with Hollow-tip shells struck you with your bones broken, gun smokin', still locin' what nigga, lay your ass down paramedics get you up feeling" And I'm sure that since 50 cent's lyrics prove my point and not yours, you'll say that he isn't "mainstream hip hop" and doesn't influence people. I could do it all day, but your ego won't let you see the issue. Again, I think we are on such vastly different intellectual levels that this discussion is becoming ridiculous. Quote: I never said hip-hop was bad. I never said it's the single cause. If you knew how to read with your ever-so-open-mind, you'd see that i never said any of these things. Of course, they don't fit what you want to see, just like the lyrics, so you won't see them. I can rest secure that I've proven my point to you beyond what a rational educated person would desire and that it is your obsitenance and lack of education that prevent you from seeing it. I'll refrain from discussing anything with you again. Maybe next time we could have a hip-hop "dance off" or something more along your intellectual lines to prove a point. Or you could just use more profanity... Quote: Those three "words" there would guarantee you wouldn't work for my company, and it's why the only black men that Ido have working for me aren't trying to represent "tha" ghetto, they are all hardworking men who try to get educated, rather than acting like a hip-hop "nigger".
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. I know exactly what you are talking about as well, I worked in the middle of the 'ghetto' on the south side of Chicago. We had a brutal murder in broad daylight in front of our store, its a mess. And to think of what the hip-hop or rap artists of today are portraying of the lifestyle is nuts, it isnt real. They are creating a false image of the bad life being the way things are, what to expect when you get older.
I'll take it a step further though. Poor whites have it even harder than poor blacks, because of all the social programs in place for blacks, like scholarship quotas and afirmative action. Oh, and Meth. I know of no black man that messes with Meth! Too smart I would think.


umm, no. I havent seen any statistics yet. where are they? 
