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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Begging
    #2913108 - 07/21/04 07:14 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I'm in Berkeley for the summer, and one thing that's really starting to bother me is the begging. I don't mean the crazy homeless, or no legged homeless beggars. The ones who piss me off are the people my age (I'm 19) with nothing wrong with them who sit around every day and demand money "to travel," and act like it's owed to them and that those who don't give them money are "the Man" or some shit.

I think the next time one of them (there's the same bunch every day... travel, yeah right!) asks me for money I'm going to stare him/her in the eyes and say:
    "You have a choice. You can give me a reason why I, who worked shovelling shit in 90 degree weather on a horse farm for the first half of the summer just so I could come to California, should give you, who is sitting here every day making no attempt to _earn_ money despite having all the same qualifiations that got me my job (ie alive) money just because you ask. Or you can fuck off and never ask me again."

    "If you have a good reason, and yes, I'll listen honestly, I will give you money. If you don't have a good reason but demand it anyway, i will tell you to fuck off, and if you ask me again tomorrow, or any other time this summer, I will kill you."

    Am I crazy, or are they? I'm by no means an incompassionate person, but that's exactly what bothers me about this. They just sit there demanding money for no reason and make no attempt to get it themselves. I've thought about ways I could get food to give to the actually needy homeless people, but people who beg out of "attitude" (for lack of a better word) should fuck off, in my opinion. I also kind of feel trapped because I feel like no matter how I react they'll just use it to further feed their delusions about "the man" and people being "intolerant."

What do you guys think about this? I'm not especially interested in hearing anything about karma, but sort of philosophical stance would most of you take here? Do they have a right to ask for money? (I guess they do, but they should accept the consequences). Do they have a right to _expect_ money? (I hope not, and the fact that they are here all the time probably means they do get some) In other words, how do you all feel about this?

ps, I'm sorta joking about killing them, but only sorta  :evil:


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Begging [Re: ferago2]
    #2913123 - 07/21/04 07:20 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Lazy, resentful young people in Berkeley??? I never would've imagined.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: Begging [Re: ferago2]
    #2913263 - 07/21/04 08:04 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Beggars who can work are not deserving of anything.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Begging [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2913622 - 07/21/04 09:32 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

i do think its funny that my only 2 choices are to work for money, and in turn support oppression, war, and corruption. or i can be homless..


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2913635 - 07/21/04 09:35 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

You don't support anything by working. Where you spend your cash determines whether you support these things.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/22/04 03:08 AM)


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Begging [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2913758 - 07/21/04 10:14 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

its my opinion that the monetary system we use in america is the main source of all inequity.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2913770 - 07/21/04 10:16 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Yeah, but what can you do? Can you think of something better? I have been poor and I don't like it.

everything below is an edit.

I can not believe I responded in this concilliatory fashion to such a ridiculous idea. After thinking about it I find the notion that all work contributes to oppression to be a fake, intellectual/elitest idea from someone who wants to carry a terminal bitch around that can't be solved. This is a classic case of operating outside your sphere of influence. I'll tell you what, if you really think this then just be homeless which I am sure you are not. You really need to gain a few years maturity before you go talk about being repressed by "the man". I have been poor and it is not cool in the least. Move to North Korea where all citizens are "equal"(yeah, right) in their communistic society and experience that before you criticise capitalism.


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/22/04 03:05 AM)


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Invisibletoad857
President of theUnited States

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 283
Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2913905 - 07/21/04 11:06 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
its my opinion that the monetary system we use in america is the main source of all inequity.




i hear you.

capitalism is indeed oppressive.  it's ruthless by nature--it's what makes it so fruitiful.  i think that it seems to fit very well with our own human nature.

that doesn't seem to be the thing that bothers  me though.

if we (the human race) have the  ability to put that energy into something more helpful to all people (such as peace) then it's a horrible waste that we're not using it.  we have the ability to override urges of hate, violence, and greed..but it has fallen by the wayside.  using that ability is a low priority.  :sad:


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Begging [Re: ferago2]
    #2914270 - 07/22/04 01:05 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I agree with your take on this, except for the threatening to kill them part. That's just wrong.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2914282 - 07/22/04 01:08 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Bleak writes:

its my opinion that the monetary system we use in america is the main source of all inequity.

A bold assertion indeed, especially considering the monetary system used in America is in principle no different from the monetary system used anywhere else in the world today.

I would like to hear the reasoning behind your statement if it's not too much trouble.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 14,899
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Re: Begging [Re: Phred]
    #2914371 - 07/22/04 01:34 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
I agree with your take on this, except for the threatening to kill them part. That's just wrong.

pinky




yes. rape and torture should be more than adequate. :thumbup: :grin:


--------------------
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all



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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Begging [Re: Phred]
    #2914916 - 07/22/04 06:28 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Bleak writes:

its my opinion that the monetary system we use in america is the main source of all inequity.

A bold assertion indeed, especially considering the monetary system used in America is in principle no different from the monetary system used anywhere else in the world today.

I would like to hear the reasoning behind your statement if it's not too much trouble.

pinky




our monetary system is the appartatus that govt uses to expand its power.
our system of credit allows us to expand, in populace, and industry, as far as nature will allow. (if u arent fammiliar with the federal reserve and fractional banking do your own reading.)

i do not like industry. or dense populations


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Begging [Re: ferago2]
    #2914960 - 07/22/04 07:14 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I think privatising the banks cuts the money from the civilians. So, by accumulating more and more money which is taken out of economic-circle (by privates), does the most harm to the equality of chances. Often the government is stuck in this misere as well.
Money itself is not the bad thing, it is neutral. It depends what people do with it (do good or do bad).
I think, the guys there in Berkeley have a roof over their head, something to eat and don't are stranded travellers. All the further stuff is kind of luxury and they have to do something about it (sell their own paintings, clean shoes, etc.).
So if they're not starving, freezing to death or are not in any temporal misery, don't give them money.
Giving those some money, won't really help them.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
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Re: Begging [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2915202 - 07/22/04 10:27 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Actually you support plenty by working - If you do not approve of your government's actions you unwillingly end up supporting them through massive taxation.

And wherever you spend your money you are putting tax into this government hat. It's unavoidable.

tax when you get paid, tax when you spend, tax when you sell, tax when you buy


For instance in my country I pay (unavoidably) national insurance, which is supposed to pay for my doctor and for my pension amongst other things. I cannot get a doctor (I have been flat refused by all 3 surgeries in my locality because there are not enough GP's and too many patients) and I will not get a pension (Already the old are massively underfunded - someone in government has mis-invested or spent the pension funds). However the government has no qualms or budget issues when it comes to arms aqusition, military adventurism etc. There's always enough for that. So my NI is being spent in areas it is not meant to be, and I am not getting the deal society tells me I am getting. It's all bullshit.

----

Back to beggars though, I often see young beggars on the street who (when the rough blanket is pulled back from their feet) are wearing the latest nikes, and beside them have a flash bike to ride home on. All much more expensive than the gear I am wearing (or riding) that day....
I even know of one beggar who comes into the city, takes his suit off and sits and begs in rough clothes. I have not seen him change with my own eyes, but my fiance has and I believe her.

I used to give to all the beggars until I became disillusioned with it. It wasn't getting them anywhere. It was like feeding black holes - they just suck and suck and suck, and if you let them they drag you in and suck u up. They are destructive.

I've even tried to give food to beggars who turn their nose up at it....
I've given a handful of money to beggars and ha them count thesmall change out of it and give it bck to me. The sort of change I carefully save to help me get through the day. They must feel better off than me to be able to turn this money down.

Having said that there are beggars who I get a vibe off, they gratefully take any food offered and usually smile. Sometimes they even appreciate a good schmoke :sun: It feels so nice to do something for them.

However it gets hard to see and as a rule I generally don't give to beggars now.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2915210 - 07/22/04 10:32 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

I guess what I was after was an explanation of how the Federal reserve system and fractional banking (both of which are familiar to me, by the way) constitute the main source of all inequity.

The fact that you personally don't like high population density or industry does nothing to demonstrate your assertion. Neither condition even demonstrates "inequity", let alone all inequity.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: Begging [Re: ferago2]
    #2916500 - 07/22/04 04:59 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Hey ferago! You're an idiot! Check this out:

"I'm by no means an incompassionate person"

that's funny cause:

"if you ask me again tomorrow, or any other time this summer, I will kill you"

Ok, so let me get this straight.. you are a compassionate person who scripts little fantasy situations where you threaten to kill people who annoy you?

Sounds like you're, uh.. really stupid! Like you have no ability to, I don't know, self-reflect.. like you're hardly conscious.. something like that.. Anyway, care to explain how it's possible to be compassionate yet so full of hatred for someone who's "crimes" rank them no higher than a minor annoyance?


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Begging [Re: CJay]
    #2916775 - 07/22/04 06:05 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
Actually you support plenty by working - If you do not approve of your government's actions you unwillingly end up supporting them through massive taxation.

And wherever you spend your money you are putting tax into this government hat. It's unavoidable.

tax when you get paid, tax when you spend, tax when you sell, tax when you buy


For instance in my country I pay (unavoidably) national insurance, which is supposed to pay for my doctor and for my pension amongst other things. I cannot get a doctor (I have been flat refused by all 3 surgeries in my locality because there are not enough GP's and too many patients) and I will not get a pension (Already the old are massively underfunded - someone in government has mis-invested or spent the pension funds). However the government has no qualms or budget issues when it comes to arms aqusition, military adventurism etc. There's always enough for that. So my NI is being spent in areas it is not meant to be, and I am not getting the deal society tells me I am getting. It's all bullshit.

----

Back to beggars though, I often see young beggars on the street who (when the rough blanket is pulled back from their feet) are wearing the latest nikes, and beside them have a flash bike to ride home on. All much more expensive than the gear I am wearing (or riding) that day....
I even know of one beggar who comes into the city, takes his suit off and sits and begs in rough clothes. I have not seen him change with my own eyes, but my fiance has and I believe her.

I used to give to all the beggars until I became disillusioned with it. It wasn't getting them anywhere. It was like feeding black holes - they just suck and suck and suck, and if you let them they drag you in and suck u up. They are destructive.

I've even tried to give food to beggars who turn their nose up at it....
I've given a handful of money to beggars and ha them count thesmall change out of it and give it bck to me. The sort of change I carefully save to help me get through the day. They must feel better off than me to be able to turn this money down.

Having said that there are beggars who I get a vibe off, they gratefully take any food offered and usually smile. Sometimes they even appreciate a good schmoke :sun: It feels so nice to do something for them.

However it gets hard to see and as a rule I generally don't give to beggars now.





Sorry to get off topic but why has your post style drastically changed. Its actually coherent, arranged in paragraphs, well thought out, and doesn't bitch about crazy stuff. I'm very suprised and glad to see you got your act together. Nice post. edit* or once i remembered i wasent in PAL, do you just go insane when posting in that forum?

On the topic of those kind of beggars, i agree, fuckem. I shoveled wet sand and manure in 90 degree 100% humidity weather for years when younger. Real hard honest work does a lot to build character. They could do with a bit of it.

Also next time you see them original poster, ask them who they are going to vote for. I'm curious.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Edited by d33p (07/22/04 06:09 PM)


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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Begging [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2918377 - 07/23/04 12:35 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
Anyway, care to explain how it's possible to be compassionate yet so full of hatred for someone who's "crimes" rank them no higher than a minor annoyance?




Humor? Thanks for the insults btw :smile:


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Begging [Re: Phred]
    #2918426 - 07/23/04 12:44 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
I guess what I was after was an explanation of how the Federal reserve system and fractional banking (both of which are familiar to me, by the way) constitute the main source of all inequity.

The fact that you personally don't like high population density or industry does nothing to demonstrate your assertion. Neither condition even demonstrates "inequity", let alone all inequity.

pinky




by creating an economic structure that, by nature expands indefinatly.
we've put industry and *buyables* before everything else.

the populace becomes slaved to commerce and competeing on global scales with other markets. as new people are born, the demmand for good increases and the economy grows while new buisiness are started and old ones grow.

slowly every possible aspect of life is saturated with taxing or ownership to squeeze money from someone else.

capitalism has created purpose and reason to manipulate other people.

the inequality i spoke of was that created by industry and commerce becomming more important than peace and humility.

and further the fact, that the creation of fake money by the fed, has allowed the populace to grow to the point where there is no longer free space for one to make a life on their own, in their own way.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (07/23/04 12:52 AM)


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Offlinedeff
lovelightbliss
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Re: Begging [Re: BleaK]
    #2918485 - 07/23/04 12:52 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Well, a lot of people have, but not everyone. I wish we would go back to the days of bartering though... :/


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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