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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth)
    #2912824 - 07/21/04 05:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder if it's very hard for a person or society to accept the "there is no right, or no wrong" idea?
This would mean that alot of hard work of "sorting" everything out over the milleniums (e.g. It's wrong to kill, etc, etc, war is bad, etc) in a sort of self sacrifice to make things "better" in the world, was a waste of energy, time, and commitment?
Do you think this way of seeing the world would make it better or worse, we can only guess, and even this is a guess.

And are words like "IS" "ISNT" "WILL" "WONT" "CAN" "CANT" and so on, really meant for for us to say? Are they very powerful words, because it means that when you say them; There "IS" ....without a doubt ( according to that person ) that he KNOWS it "IS" what he says it "IS" ? ....and so I observe a disagreement starting between the two entities, and another entity challenges the other entities view by saying it's "wrong." Who is he/she/it to say if it's wrong or right? That entity can only agree or disagree acording to thier lifes experience. Why do they say everything like it is factual?

Maybe all we can do is observe what " IS", not define it. Can we allow it to become true according to truth as YOU or I understand it?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2915015 - 07/22/04 07:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There is no wrong or right, but there is good and bad.

If you are Adolf Hitler (Bush or Saddam), it is right to be bad, since that is your role in the story.

However there is another factor - consciousness. Once your consciousness grows and you have more understanding of the people and universe around you - more compassion, more imagination. Well then you realise that though there is no right or wrong you cannot, by your gained nature, be bad. (Of course we are mostly somewhere on the gradient and as individuals possess the ability to be both good and bad in different ways)

If bad people realise and feel the pain they cause others, truly realise, they cannot continue. The light of their consciousness is raised and they move onto a 'higher' (for want of a better word) level of existence.

I think the source of it all is power - people need power to some degree, and their are two main sources of power in the universe. The power to give, and the power to take.

Most people (and societies) only really recognise fully the power to take; hence the disproportionate size, funding and power allocated to human armies rather then the red cross and humanitarian causes for instance.

People (and societies) are scared and they force out aggression and domination from their psyches to make them feel powerful. Often sharing is seen as a weakness (and is against the principles of capitalism to be honest), this too is born of fear.

Truth is we live in a fantastic story and without all the characters playing their parts, being as good or bad as they are in disregard for concepts of right and wrong, the story would not be. We would not be.

ps - I know we could get into  semantic debate about good and bad being equatable to right or wrong. However I am hoping to define the diference between two concepts (badly I expect!  :wink:). Meaning that it can be right for people to be bad, since that is their role in the story. Not that we have to like it, since that may be our role in the story (ie to fight badness)

do I make sense?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: CJay]
    #2915115 - 07/22/04 09:07 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think you make sense.

It's perfectly logical.. the good are not good without contrast created by the bad being bad. Like all man-made concepts, one can not exist unless it's "negative" (or opposite) also exists.

If we were ALL "good" there would be no such thing as bad OR good, because there fails to be a seperation made.

It's like putting people in groups 1 and 2, then telling everyone in group 2 to join group 1. Suddenly, there is no group 2.. but there is also no group 1, because there is no longer a reason to declare a label. Instead, there is just a group of people standing there.

This is actually a good thing in my opinion, but that's a whole 'nother story. :smile:


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2915124 - 07/22/04 09:11 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: CJay]
    #2916607 - 07/22/04 05:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think that alot of what good or bad is, has alot to do with intention as well.
Do you have as many people calling you bad if you were known to be a very peaceful person, and accedently pushed the A-Bomb button, than if you were known as a very peaceful person, and people discover that it was all an act, and you pushed the button only because you thaught it would make you rich and that you and your country would own EVERYTHING?

Intention plays a huge part.

Its like if you go camping and you wake up the next moring with the roof of your convertable torn.
If you believe or assume right away that it was a person randomly vandalising your car, then you feel very betrayed and victimised....
But then later on, while your angry as hell thinking about why the hell a person did this to you, and then find your cooler opened and food and chips strew all over the place, and realising that it was a racoon or bear that inocently was just looking for some food, you feel much different, and all of a sudden a big weight is lifted off your chest, even though you still have the EXACT same damage.

Look at this in the proper way and you will notice the point I'm trying to give between INTENTION, and the feeling and emotion that goes into Good, and bad....

Any thaughts?


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--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
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Offlinesox24
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2917271 - 07/22/04 08:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Me and Benny went out last night, looking for fun - Roger Waters


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2919071 - 07/23/04 03:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think theres right and wrong, but authority or a lot of rules are WAY off,the law is influenced by greed some is right, but the systems of punishment are wrong. Only god-realized spirits can judge them or the essence of the One it self.

My system of Jail would be very differently, but i would dose em up on stacks of acid or hallucinogenics maybe DMT or something until there motives have changed. :smile:


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: OOISI]
    #2923770 - 07/24/04 04:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What about intention behind right or wrong, good and bad?

(Look at my last post on this thread *2 posts up.....with the story I had as example)


--------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone




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OfflinePedM
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2925802 - 07/25/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Much of the ethics we were raised with were founded on the idea that we live in a universe ruled by a supreme Godhead. If it's considered true that such a monarchy is established over all life in the universe, then it must follow that the King's supreme order would be seen as the ultimate example for our moral structure. All of this is founded on the idea that there is a fundamental seperation between man and God. This idea, however, is becoming extinct.

Civilization at the present moment is going through a period of severe upheaval, of rapid change. The result of this has been an increasing blur between boundries which have been established for centuries. The boundries between the two sexes are beginning to break down. The boundries between different cultures are growing increasingly difficult to maintain. And, perhaps most cataclysmically, the boundry between humanity and the divine is coming into question. The natural consequence of this latter development would be doubt as to the basis for our ethical decisions. After all, "If God is not 'out there', then what of His rule book?" Much of our civilization appears to be grapling with this question.

There is a tendency for panic within human race, especially during times of doubt. If it's true that we are doubting the authenticity of our moral structure, it stands to reason that in panic and haste we might abandon morality entirely and fall into some kind of behavioural chaos, a brutally anarchistic "every man for himself" way of life void of conscience or reason. We need not question that this would bring an amount of suffering and confusion to us all, and can therefore be considered bad.

Another aspect of the human being, however, is it's capacity for hope. In fact, it may even be hope which has propelled us as far as we have come: the hope that life is wonderful and true freedom and liberty are indeed attainable in spite of our profound lack of understanding. The idea that there need not be some kind of glaring distinction between humanity and the divine, that such perceived isolation may have been through all these millennia only a hallucination, presents itself as a hopeful prospect. It is a hopeful prospect which I believe will only have positive results, and as I will explain in the next few paragraphs comes appropriately timed.

The imposition of "God's law" upon a small population might have it's benefits. If it is the unanimous concensus that "God's law" is authentic and real, and that God is 'out there' looking down upon us, the morality structure derrived from such a belief carries a certain integrity, guiding the conduct of human beings toward their collective harmony and happiness. The larger the population, however, the greater the diversity in view, and the greater the potential for "God's law" to fall under the shadow of doubt. As populations grow larger and more interconnected, it becomes impossible to uphold a unanimous concensus about anything, much less about morality, "right" and "wrong". It's this which we can see happening around us right now.

For the first time in human history, every human civilization is in contact with every other human civilization. Our population is at it's peak not only in numbers, but in self-awareness as well. In the midst of such widely varying approaches to the matter of ethics and spirituatlity, it is impossible for us even as individuals to adhere to the rule book of just one culture during one period in history. "God's law", at least as an objective dictum, has lost much of it's integrity, because it has become impossible to ignore the dozens of cultures with such radically different views and approaches toward the same object: divinity. It becomes a necessity to abandon one's own preconceived notions about Truth, and decide for one's self what must be done for happiness and relief.

So, there are two consequences of our population's growing density: the growing upheaval resulting in the gradual non-distinction between humanity and the divine, and the necessary pragmatism of our ethical conduct. These equate to hope and tolerance, and what I believe will be the eventual reformation of our world into a much more enlightened, peaceful, positively motivated society. In short, this period of rapid change and developement confronts humanity with the choice between adaptation or self-destruction. It is the will to survive which propells adaptation, and it has been our great capacity to adapt physically and intellectually which has inherited us the earth. I believe it will be our capacity to adapt spiritually which will eventually inherit us the divine.


--------------------


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Right and Wrong Pt.2 (The eternal Myth) [Re: Ped]
    #2926501 - 07/25/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If only it were easier to expand such awareness throughout the broad and complicated hierarchy of civilisation as we know it. All so close, and all so aware of eachother, and where the other stands...... Yet so far apart in comming to a common awareness.

Your reply reminds me of what Christians and other societies think. Take Armagadeon for example.
What you say sounds very simular to this well know prediction. That with only the removal of the dead skin, can we really show the resiliance, colours, and vitality of the new skin, the new "way"...and new thaught.

The removal of the old skin, as in many dying off, and disaster looking at you so closely (like the disaster predicted in Christianity and so many other cultures) mght be the only way around our ways of "right and wrong"...and perhaps evolve, and evolving being not very pretty as we shed the old skin, but still evolve, so that we can all acomplish our common goal, and that is to live.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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