Home | Community | Message Board


Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Is God sad?
    #2911203 - 07/21/04 04:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This is for Swami, and whoever else is interested...

Now, you are not one for petitionary prayer, as I've gathered from your feelings about whatever God they're praying to who appears to ignore alot of human suffering, at least on the outside. Now with physical worship like prayer, which is probably what you're not interested in (as you can explain this, person puts hands together, looks sky-ward; person prostrates, chant, and so-forth as you can see) but the supposed God-as-a-Philosophy-who-lives-up-to-a-standard-of-Compassion is obviously breaking the rules when something bad happens, like a murder overseas by militants - which happened, despite family and community back home who prayed for so-and-so's well being.

Now, why is God held up to this standard? By you, or whoever? Or do you feel (in your position, that is right - from your view) that this standard should be demanded by all thinking individuals?

If so, and since this standard cannot be met logically, given that most human beings suffer horribly somehow at one point in their lives, what should be done?

Now, what if you tweak finate ideas of the infinate, and through much research (lagging Jon Stewart voice) and ahhh...... it turns out God is sad, or lonely?

Can this Divine Sadness be the 'humility of the heart' that some (not all) people look for if they need it? Shy ecstasy - not for those who don't need it!.... ?

Humanity a shoulder for God to cry on, no?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Zahid]
    #2911257 - 07/21/04 05:07 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Now, why is God held up to this standard? By you, or whoever?

It is not God being held to any standard, it is the people who claim that petitionary prayer has power, but are unable to demonstrate it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOOISI
Nothingness
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 474
Loc: S.Australia
Last seen: 7 days, 9 hours
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Zahid]
    #2911271 - 07/21/04 05:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

god might of been sad or lonely (unlikely), but mankind accompanies him.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Zahid]
    #2911428 - 07/21/04 08:09 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There is no standard, there is no demand, nothing can be done, there is no sadness or loneliness but only humility.
If he exists, he just is, and things will be as it should be, as he ever knew how it will be.
Humanity is no shoulder for god to cry on, as we never really cried on his.
This world is such a big deception but .... "something wonderful will happen" :wink:

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblespock
journeyman
Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 1,165
Re: Is God sad? [Re: MAIA]
    #2911437 - 07/21/04 08:27 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"if he exists he just is"
but if "he" is the same god from the bible then he is jelous,vengeful,
and forgiving. also a little insecure (let's get them outta here before they eat of the other tree and become gods like us)


Edited by spock (07/21/04 08:38 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,290
Loc: texas
Last seen: 6 years, 29 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: spock]
    #2911562 - 07/21/04 10:14 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

god's sad, mad, and glad all at the same time. god's emotion cant be expressed by the limits of human understanding by one word... like... sad. we may TRY to. like the bible does. god is a quantum being.

how do you know god's ignoring human suffering? maybe he isnt and if he was, there would be a WHOLE LOT MORE of it.

and spock... your reference of "(let's get them outta here before they eat of the other tree and become gods like us)" is all outta whack.

the tree didnt, in fact, make them become gods. thats just what the snake said to tempt them. all the tree did was give them the knowledge of good and evil. it just gave them humility. gave them shame. duality has no place in eden. god asked them kindly to obey his wishes of not eating the tree, which he knew would fuck us up. so when they did, whats he gonna do? just let them go on with no repercussions? then the next thing you know, they'd be peeing in the holy river or throwing a holy koala bear off of a holy cliff or something. maybe he's just letting us punish ourselves by experienceing the good and evil we oh-so-wanted to learn about by eating that fated fruit.
(the whole story being metaphorical and symbolic anyway)

prayer is a form of ritual. originally, its christian meditation. people have just turned it into the hold your hands together and ask for a better job or a new bike thing.

(im not trying to argue in a pro-christian way, im just giving a view to think about.)


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: spock]
    #2911612 - 07/21/04 10:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

See, that's the real problem with the concept or notion we have about god. Most people follow this notion conceived in a cultural aspect. I don't believe that's the most accurate concept because they all differ at some point, thus no one is totally correct.
Anyway, i don't want to judge the true meaning of god in religious/cultural terms. What i find most important about his probable existence is our personal perspective and our personal feelings about his essence. There is an essence of love and divine good among many people and i belive it could have something to do with god.
From each one to the whole, that's the way i see we can change our view of god to a more accurate perspective.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblespock
journeyman
Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 1,165
Re: Is God sad? [Re: plexus]
    #2911629 - 07/21/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

one tree gave knowledge of good and evil the other tree gave everlasting life. adom and eve were kicked out before eating of that tree. then god(s) said lets get them outta here before they become like us.who knows what this means but it does imply insecurity. also i wonder why does god refers to himself(thierselves) as us plural. yes the snake told eve that they would know good and evil like gods but god(s) confirms this.
i think it's the first commandment when god says "i am a jelous god"
is god sad? i don't know but he does seem to have emotions and especialy in the old testement be emotional.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,290
Loc: texas
Last seen: 6 years, 29 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: MAIA]
    #2911690 - 07/21/04 11:05 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
See, that's the real problem with the concept or notion we have about god. Most people follow this notion conceived in a cultural aspect. I don't believe that's the most accurate concept because they all differ at some point, thus no one is totally correct.
MAIA




EXACTLY
i think that all views of god (to an extent) have some sort of basis on what god is, but they were all percieved when cultures were spread out vastly that they all different in certain ways. then the differences grew more and more throughout the millenia. and they had no internet to see the other side's views. so when they met up and saw that the views of the other differed drastically, they clashed culturally. and to this day, people have carried these old, outdated views so arrogantly, so that there are still these clashes. i think religion was good back in the day. I think we needed it to develop spititually. I dont think it mattered what the religion was, it was just something to be more connected to their spiritual side. But now religion is outdated.


and spock :
naw dude... you got this ALL wrong. go back to sunday school, man. they WERE allowed to eat of the tree of everlasting life and NOT the tree of knowledge of good and evil. the snake didnt say that they would know knowledge of good and evil like god, he said theyd BE LIKE GOD. which just wasnt true. they were kicked out of eden so they werent allowed to eat of the tree of everlasting life ANYMORE. maybe thats why those old folks like abraham and noah lived for hundreds of years, the fruit of the tree of life was wearing of. heh.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblespock
journeyman
Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 1,165
Re: Is God sad? [Re: plexus]
    #2911707 - 07/21/04 11:10 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24
i never wen to sunday school or church


Edited by spock (07/21/04 11:13 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,757
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 hours, 2 minutes
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Swami]
    #2911736 - 07/21/04 11:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If I prayed earnestly for something to appear in my life - something physically possible (not blue-skinned supervoluptous alien females who wish to mate with me) - but nevertheless, something very very specific - and my prayer became manifest - you would simply rack the improbable up to laws of probability, meaningless coincidence unrelated to inner and outer events, or something along these lines. All the experiences in my life preceding this 'manifestation' would not be available to the observational 'spotlight' of cause-effect immediately surrounding the 'manifestation,' nor would the not-as-yet lived life until my death be observable.

Your philosophy cannot contain possibilities of post-temporal events impinging upon any given present moment, only pre-temporal events in a linear fashion upon which cause-effect operates. In other words, the possibility of the future effecting the past (Backward Causation) or a life in its entirety seen under the aspect of eternity (sub specie aeternitatus) are modes which are recognized by certain thinkers in fields of parapsychology or philosophical theology. It is pointless to debate the truthfulness of these non-local perspectives. They can only be realized by living them AS true. The obviousness of cause-effect is just that - obvious. But 'glitches' in this spacio-temporal-gravitational 'matrix' provide 'glimpses' into completely different paradigms of operant Reality - paradigms that support a spiritual view of Life.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,290
Loc: texas
Last seen: 6 years, 29 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2911806 - 07/21/04 11:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

spock, i was inferring from your second post that you were saying that they weren't allowed to eat from either trees. that they were never allowed to eat from the tree of life. but now im thinking you never meant that. eh?


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblespock
journeyman
Registered: 08/27/03
Posts: 1,165
Re: Is God sad? [Re: plexus]
    #2911826 - 07/21/04 11:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

plexus sorry if i wasnt clear
i dont type well and cant spell for shit


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is God sad? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2912152 - 07/21/04 01:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If I prayed earnestly for something to appear in my life - something physically possible (not blue-skinned supervoluptous alien females who wish to mate with me) - but nevertheless, something very very specific - and my prayer became manifest - you would simply rack the improbable up to laws of probability, meaningless coincidence unrelated to inner and outer events, or something along these lines.

OK I will play your meaningless game:

When my ex-girlfriend (a very devout and deeply spiritual woman) prayed everyday for her daughter's recovery for years (a rarely terminal condition) while doing everything possible physically (best medical care, etc.) and the daughter died anyway when on the verge of a major recovery, you would defend the lack of efficacy by saying:

You fill in the blanks as it is bad form to pretend to know what another is thinking.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Swami]
    #2912231 - 07/21/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that petitionary prayer is possible, BUT it can only directly effect the person who does the praying. Praying that someone else will do something without your intervention is in vain. Prayer is a form of meditation that can focus our will to acheive an end we are willing to put effort into. If another person has faith in your prayer and they are the focus of it then it is possible that they may be influenced as well (like faith healing). This may make it seem less supernatural, but it is no less spiritual. Praying that totally objective events will occur (war will end...someone will not die of cancer...you will win the lottery...etc...) is pretty much a waste of time in my experience. Just my nickel.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2912251 - 07/21/04 02:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that petitionary prayer is possible, BUT it can only directly effect the person who does the praying.

Where do you come up with this "rule"? Besides any personal change that you make WILL directly affect others.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,757
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 hours, 2 minutes
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Swami]
    #2912637 - 07/21/04 04:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Paul of Tarsus prayed three times for a certain "thorn in my side" to be removed, and it was not. Now, without having to prove any historical accuracy here (not the point), even though this "thorn" has been speculated on, it was of significance in the 'story.' Some have even considered it to have been a nagging homosexual desire, owing to Paul's consistant misogyny. This would have been at tremendous loggerheads with Paul's anti-sexual attitude in general.

Despite God's 'failure' or better yet 'refusal' to adjust reality to this earnest request, there were many many other 'salvilfic' events that Paul relates: survived shipwrecked twice, jail door left open, shaking off a venomous snake with no ill-effect, escaped mobs, etc., etc. I am sorry about the loss of a child, any child, and I know this loss has effected you greatly and terribly because you have written about it before. I will not explain the paradox of evil and God's goodness to you because it is beyond me. I know the Jewish, Christian, various Hindu and Buddhist takes on this paradox, but philosophical theology does not allay pain any more than photos of cakes allay hunger. Over the years, when I have prayed, a certain (sorry for the weak terms) 'relief,' or 'certainty' which was of course not grounded in anything rational, always accompanied those prayer requests that came to pass. I learned not to ask repeatedly, although, following the Pauline event, I asked exactly three times for my former marriage to 'be saved.' I never experienced a sense of 'certainty,' and the failed marriage threw me into Major Depression, with [intermittant] Psychotic Features (i.e., 'this is not happening to me' dissociation and depersonalization). I could not read a paragraph of anything for six months. I was reduced to watching 'A Charlie brown Christmas' (1965) in July as a regressive means to self-soothing. I was a physical wreck and a psychological basket-case for the first year, and dysfunctional for two years. I began to pull out of it in the third year, but it took four full years to become healthy, and I became healthier than I ever was during the relationship which led up to and included the marriage (a full 1/3 of my life at the time - 13 years).

No, a physical death had not occurred, but a great ego-death had. At least one person thought that I had cancer when it ended, but eventually, my body, mind and spirit improved. My prayerful requests seemed to be met, although not always in the forms that I had imagined. Synchronicities abounded. Desires long-ago abandoned through a terrible marriage materialized: the kind of rustic house I used to want, but before that happened, the kind of female partner I had longed for (physically, mentally, morally) stepped forward to ask me out! We are together for 8 years now, and since we have been on holiday together, several telepathic events have transpired - even today. These psychospiritual interactions of which I speak constitute my experience. I am not lying and I choose to attribute the patterns of my life that only my intimates can see, because they know me long and well, to an Absolute Cause - the Divine Lodestone Which constellates a 'pattern' to the otherwise random inner and outer events of my existence. This is the Symbolic Life of which I spoke earlier. It is a joyful game, interspersed with sometimes acutely painful moments, but essentially joyful. Unlike the Buddhist, I do not hold that "Life is suffering," and I'm actually a pessimist constitutionally. Unlike yourself however, it is to me and my Lady, an intrinsically meaningful game.

Without suggesting that I am a Great Soul, I will state unequivocally that the title of Mahatma Gandhi's autobiography describes my take on my own life, namely, 'The Story of My Experiments With Truth.' From home laboratory to cannabis to psychedelics to Satanism to philosophy to ceremonial magick to Zen to Yoga to mysticism to investigation of Catholic monasticism to Christian seminary to Jung to alchemy to Gnosticism to Kabbalism to this post. In 1977 Dr. Jean Houston ('The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience,' 'Mind Games') called me a "Magister Ludi" in an autographed book after a 3 day workshop. Her appellation of 'Master of Games' was an honor, but I'm sure that you would just as well maintain that her life work, the work that DeRopp called 'The Master Game' is just as "meaningless" as those games that I continue to play. How sad for you, but fortunate for myself, that your sense of meaninglessness is not contagious.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Is God sad? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2912697 - 07/21/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Your personal story as always (truthfully) is fascinating, but still not sure what you are trying to say.

You didn't get what you thought you wanted at the time, but something better many years later. Not sure how you can link your prayer with events long after the fact.

There will not be "anything better" coming along for the girl's mother or for me. The child will remain dead no matter what emotional, material gains may come along. The prayer was NOT answered then and will never be answered, even in another form. There is no sense of reason or purpose or fate; only pain.

This is called finality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Swami]
    #2912840 - 07/21/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I never said it was a rule. It was only my opinion from experience.

"Besides any personal change that you make WILL directly affect others"

Excellant point. I try to often simplify my posts so little details are often left out. I was just stating my opinion that there is NO supernatural being standing by to grant us our every wish (or I would be independantly wealthy), but that in no way negates the relationship prayer has to the spirit.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,290
Loc: texas
Last seen: 6 years, 29 days
Re: Is God sad? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2913799 - 07/21/04 10:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

MMAAAYYYYYBBBEE God didn't "answer" your ex-girlfriend's prayers because there was a REASON for her death. a reason that neither of you could or can see. Maybe her daughter's death was a tiny tiny gear in an enormous machine of life and death. maybe she was SUPPOSED to die then. maybe just for the tiniest reason.

uh... maybe


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 3,444 39 08/22/02 08:29 PM
by Xlea321
* God's ego...
( 1 2 3 all )
Viaggio 2,177 57 11/01/04 03:25 PM
by Viaggio
* God Exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Zahid 6,946 113 03/18/03 05:57 PM
by falcon
* 'God' and the Psychadelic Experience Billy1111 495 8 05/10/09 11:14 AM
by Chronic7
* If the Christian god is real...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Isaac
10,995 155 05/16/09 04:39 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* The Kabbalistic Tree of Life - Mystical, Magical Map
( 1 2 all )
MarkostheGnostic 2,661 29 05/08/05 07:38 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Whosoever is delighted in solitude is either a wild beast or a god.
( 1 2 3 all )
blewmeanie 5,178 49 10/05/08 10:49 PM
by blewmeanie
* Why do I reject God?
( 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 all )
Icelander 9,761 218 12/23/06 09:54 AM
by Gomp

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
3,279 topic views. 0 members, 11 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.113 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.