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OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
The Concept of reality
    #2909570 - 07/20/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Reality is right in front of us, there are no locks to crack, there are no threads to unravel unless you want there to be. Every reality is seen through a different pair of eyes though, and naturaly this leads to arguments as to whose reality exists more.
Nobodies.


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--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone




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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,378
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Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2909591 - 07/20/04 08:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Define "reality"...

There is (almost certainly) an external "physical" world that exists independantly of any consciousness. This is, I think, the world that is seen through our eyes and measured through our other senses...and it is this process of measurement which results in the richly illustrated "inner reality" that we all seem to experience in one way or another. Because this inner reality is entirely dependant on (a) the measuring process (and efficiency of the measuring tools, our senses, being used) and (b) the pre-processing of the raw data by our brains...there is a great deal of room for individual differences in our inner worlds. What we end up with is a very filtered construct...an image of physical reality.

Unfortunately most of people seem to equate their inner world WITH the outer "physical reality". See this thread for a good lesson on getting around this habbit :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2909731 - 07/20/04 08:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry, but not all realities are created equal.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblezee_werp
a fractalcreature
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Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 1,026
Loc: Aotearoa
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2910664 - 07/21/04 12:42 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There have been times when I've found myself thinking "there is nothing 'hidden' about reality - its all right here before me, I am a part of it, these 'secrets', these barriers, were an illusion"...but looking back I can realise that those realisations did not come easily, and it wasn't that the barriers never existed, it was more that I had passed them to get into a certain level of awareness.

I think that there is plenty of hidden aspects of reality, both inner and outer, in that we can not be aware them of all of the time. It is just a part of being human that we go through cycles and stages of different levels of consciousness, and the overall experience of these fluctuations makes up the 'bigger picture' which is your life experience.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you think that there are 'no locks to crack' then you're probably thinking that because you've already put in some effort and cracked a few locks already, enough to create the illusion that there are no locks. But don't count on that level of thought sustaining itself through time - theres always another level.

If there were no mysteries to think about and no barriers to pass, life would be boring, and what would become of the human experience?


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2910705 - 07/21/04 12:59 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Trendal that E-Prime article appears to summon positive energy within Strumpling


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Northernsoul]
    #2910742 - 07/21/04 01:12 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Every reality is seen through a different pair of eyes though."

There are creatures that don't even have eyes.

What kinds of "stuff-detection" are WE HUMANS missing out on? Are there other things around us that we can't detect? Could there not be "stuff" or "things" or "dudes" out there (all around us at all times, even..) undetectable by scent, taste, touch, sight, or sound?

Something flies past a creature with no eyes and no ears, just yards away; it has no idea anything just passed and possibly even observed (and possibly even targeted?!) it.

heh I feel that reality could be way more "collectively subjective" per species than we know. Despite our differences in sensual recordings/reactions, we are all experiencing a reality very similar to all the rest of us, when compared to what that snail over there or the alien behind you is experiencing.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #2910884 - 07/21/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I've been reading a book, The Fabric of the Cosmos, and came accross a neat idea a few chapters ago.

According to Inflationary Cosmology, all the matter/energy that we can "see" (not physically see - but detect in some fashion using our instruments) accounts for only 5% of the total mass/energy content that is "required" for the Universe to appear as it does today. I'm sure most of you have heard of the "dark matter" concept...well Inflationary Cosmology (along with some tentative roads into string theory) adds ANOTHER even LARGER portion of the Universe which we are not yet able to detect, and it gives it the name "strange energy". Ok: so "visible" matter/energy accounts for a mere 5% of the total content of the Universe. "Dark matter" accounts for another 25%...and "strange energy" accounts for a whopping 70%!!!

What struck me first, and the author quickly brought it up on the next page, is that we and all that we can see or measure is by far not the "normal" form of energy in this Universe. We are the exception...just the tip of the iceburg! 95% of what "exists" in this Universe may exist around (and through) us yet we have absolutely no vision of it (and by "vision" I include all of our most sensitive technology). 95% of what exists is still nearly a complete mystery to us!


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 965
Loc: The City
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #2912248 - 07/21/04 02:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Something flies past a creature with no eyes and no ears, just yards away; it has no idea anything just passed and possibly even observed (and possibly even targeted?!) it.

I've often thought of this. I'll be walking through the house and think "There could be a grotesque 4th dimensional alien beast standing 3 inches in front of me, screaming at me as loud as it can, and I'm totally oblivious."

Keeping this in mind, it starts to become easier to embrace the hidden joys and happiness that seem to be waiting for us to extract them from our moment to moment experience. One must not become too wrapped up in their current state of experience, especially if it feels unpleasant. Beautiful thoughts and hopeful dreams await you, floating in the air, all you have to do is sh---i---ft your perspective a bit.

Tripping teaches this to me repeatedly. I change the chemical balance in my brain by one compound and all of a sudden I'm embedded in an fresh vibrant reality. Our moods seem to be no different, just a different equilibrium of experience. Learn to change the equilibrium, and you learn to literally change your experienced reality. Easier said than done, but still, the possibility feels real to me and it's part of what keeps me from wanting to get off this crazy ride we call life.


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912263 - 07/21/04 02:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

While dark matter and other cosmological "stuff" may exist, basically they are just names given to fudge factors in formulae that don't work.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Swami]
    #2912321 - 07/21/04 02:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Don't work?

Look at the machine you are using right now. That would not be possible if someone didn't "fudge" a theory that didn't work at first :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912356 - 07/21/04 03:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The universe certainly "works", but the main theories to explain the Big Bang and galactic formation proved untenable, so an unwitnessed factor (such as dark matter) was tossed in, not based on research, but in an attempt to correct the formulae.

This was done over and over again with the Ptolomeic view of celestial mechanics until it became so absurd and unworkable that it had to be tossed.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Swami]
    #2912441 - 07/21/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Not exactly...

The concept of dark matter came from direct observation of the internal motion of galaxies. It was noted that the stars around the edges of galaxies were moving too fast for the gravity caused by the visible portion of the galaxy to hold on to them: they should fly off into open space...they do not. This is not based in any way on the Big Bang theory...it is based on our theory of Gravity which is quite highly developed and understood. Note that "dark matter" is not the mysterious "strange matter" that most people make it out to be...it is exactly what it says: matter which does not give off light. There are plenty of possibilities for this.

Now, in formulating some of the newer cosmology theories (like Inflationary cosmology) we have found that the % of mass we had attributed to "dark matter" agrees almost exactly with what the new theories predict SHOULD be there! In physics, when a theory manages to predict something that has already been measured...we think of it as a good indication that the theory is correct at least in principle.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912462 - 07/21/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It was noted that the stars around the edges of galaxies were moving too fast for the gravity caused by the visible portion of the galaxy

We're moving too fast to MATCH THE CURRENT MODEL OF GRAVITY, so an extra unobserved variable was added to MAKE THE FORMULA WORK.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Swami]
    #2912527 - 07/21/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's precisely what I said!

That's the way, by and large, that science works. It's also the reason that we call most of our ideas "theories" instead of "laws" :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912635 - 07/21/04 04:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Now, in formulating some of the newer cosmology theories (like Inflationary cosmology) we have found that the % of mass we had attributed to "dark matter" agrees almost exactly with what the new theories predict SHOULD be there!

This is the back-fitting of data. Despite its common acceptance, inflationary cosmology is one of the most hokey yet to attempt to explain the unknown. While it "fixes" some "problems", it creates new untenable ones.

Give me 5 years worth of stock market data and I can come up with a formula that seemingly predicted the actions of the market.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/21/04 04:29 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Posts: 19,378
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Swami]
    #2912673 - 07/21/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Give me 5 years worth of stock market data and I can come up with a formula that seemingly predicted the actions of the market.

Some mathematicians already beat you to it, I'm afraid :smirk:

They had made billions of dollars using a formula they created to play the market. It worked fine as long as the market "behaved normally"...which it did right up until two unrelated events put the market into a tumble. I think their company lost 4 trillion dollars in a matter of days....


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,378
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912685 - 07/21/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It was called the "Black Scholes formula", if my memory serves me correct here. It's been a long time since I read about it...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912706 - 07/21/04 04:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It was not Black-Schoales - that is a formula for "fairly pricing" stock options.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Folding@home Statistics
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: Swami]
    #2912717 - 07/21/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Concept of reality [Re: trendal]
    #2912719 - 07/21/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

B.S. of Inflation

Magnificent claims, to be sure?yet little more than wishful thinking. For example, cosmologists speak of a special particle?known as an ?inflaton??that is supposed to have provided the vacuum with its initial energy. Yet as scientists acknowledge, ?...the particle that might have provided the vacuum energy density is still unidentified, even theoretically; it is sometimes called the inflaton because its sole purpose seems to be to have produced inflation? (see ?The Inflationary Universe?). In an article on ?Before the Big Bang? in the March 1999 issue of Analog Science Fiction & Fact Magazine, John Cramer wrote:

"The problem with all of this is that the inflation scenario seems rather contrived and raises many unresolved questions. Why is the universe created with the inflaton field displaced from equilibrium? Why is the displacement the same everywhere? What are the initial conditions that produce inflation? How can the inflationary phase be made to last long enough to produce our universe? Thus, the inflation scenario which was invented to eliminate the contrived initial conditions of the Big Bang model apparently needs contrived initial conditions of its own (1999, emp. added)."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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