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Invisibleafoaf
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Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter
    #2908321 - 07/20/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/20/bush.environment.ap/index.html

Nixon EPA chief criticizes Bush

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 Posted: 11:40 AM EDT (1540 GMT)

CONCORD, New Hampshire (AP) -- The head of the Environmental Protection Agency for two Republican presidents criticized President Bush's record on Monday, calling it a "polluter protection" policy.

Russell E. Train, who headed the EPA from September 1973 to January 1977 -- part of the Nixon and Ford administrations -- said Bush's record on the environment was so dismal that he would cast his vote for Democrat John Kerry.

"It's almost as if the motto of the administration in power today in Washington is not environmental protection, but polluter protection," Train said. "I find this deeply disturbing."

In 1988, Train was co-chairman of Conservationists for Bush, an organization that backed the candidacy of George W. Bush's father.

Train spoke at an event organized by Environment2004, which opposes Bush's environmental record.

He accused Bush of weakening the Clean Air Act and said the president's record falls short of those set by former Republican presidents, from Theodore Roosevelt, who advocated creating national parks and forests, to George H.W. Bush, who supported revised standards for clean air.

The Bush-Cheney campaign defended the president's record, saying states such as New Hampshire benefit from the president's Healthy Forests Initiative.

They also argued that sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions have dropped during the Bush administration.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The one thing worth mentioning is that sulfer dioxide
and carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping
EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980

http://www.careenergy.com/technology/results.asp
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761578185___11/Acid_Rain.html
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-glo20021125a1.html

This is the result of increased technology, better fuel
efficiency as well as Emissions Trading.

One interesting thing is that Bush's Clear Skies Act pushes
for a similar trading scheme for other pollutants, which, when
compared to the aforementioned program could be a +
for bush in the environment column if it works as well as
the current programs have.


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter [Re: afoaf]
    #2908353 - 07/20/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping
EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980




that is the biggest lie i have ever heard


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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society

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Offlinecoralrives
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2908447 - 07/20/04 12:33 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"that is the biggest lie i have ever heard"




No no, that would be, "No, I won't come in your mouth..." :crazy: :crazy: :grin:


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"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2908710 - 07/20/04 01:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

then you are the biggest fool I've ever seen...

read any of those three links that I posted.

it seems a very clear fact to both sides of the
political spectrum that emissions in the US have
been on a steady decline for the past 20 years,
due largely in part to a number of legislative
efforts.

if you don't believe that, I anxiously await your
scientific study refuting these commonly held
facts.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2908768 - 07/20/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I can't speak directly to your study, but can share my personal 20-year observation of Las Vegas and Southern California. I have travelled between the two for some 25 years. When I first came to Vegas you could see the surrounding mountains clearly every single day of the year. There are more and more days when the mountains are completly obscured.

Driving over to the California coast, the sky used to be yellow/brown/grey some 70 miles in; now it has expanded to around 110+ miles.

Pollution in these regions has dramatically worsened in my unscientific observations.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2908803 - 07/20/04 02:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well Swami, I have been living in California for 43 years and the level of air pollution has dropped. When I was a child I could not play outside some days because I would get chest pains from breathing in SO2 laden air. Southern California has always been subject to an inversion layer which will trap smoke and fog, creating smog. In this state we have the most strict emmisson standards in the world.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhillinGroovy
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2908909 - 07/20/04 02:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping"

Carbon dioxide, not sulfur dioxide. Go back and look at your own links - there is no mention of carbon dioxide emmissions declining.

Carbon dioxide emmissions are caused by burning fossil fuels. Our global use of fossil fuels is higher now than ever before, so carbon dioxide emmissions are at an all time high.


Sulfur dioxide and acid rain are less of a problem in the US now than they were in 1980.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2908986 - 07/20/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I didn't provide any links, try responding to the right person. BTW, sulfur dioxide emmisions also result from the burning of fossil fuels.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhillinGroovy
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909038 - 07/20/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

1) true enough - i should have responded to afoaf.
2) carbon dioxide is a necessary product of the burning of any fossil fuel. It is impractically expensive to remove from emissions. Sulfur dioxide results from the burning of some fossil fuels, such as many types of coal, but not, for example, from the burning of gasoline. It is relatively cheaper to remove from the gasseous waste stream because 1) there's alot less of it, 2) it is produced at a few concentrated points, such as power plants, as opposed to many points, like cars, 3) It isn't really that expensive to substitute low-sulfur coal for high sulfur coal. As I've already said, there is no "low-carbon" fossil fuel.

Sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide are entirely different, in effects, in source, and in the possibility of technological solution.

You can read about sulfur dioxide here:
http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/sulfur.html


Sorry for any offense I caused, but the fact remains:

Carbon dioxide emmissions are not falling.




btw, I used to post to these forums as "phi1618", but haven't been here for a while.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2909124 - 07/20/04 03:28 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for the correction.

Psilygirl, I guess you're half right and I'm half a fool.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2909134 - 07/20/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can't speak directly to your study, but can share my personal 20-year observation of Las Vegas and Southern California. I have travelled between the two for some 25 years. When I first came to Vegas you could see the surrounding mountains clearly every single day of the year. There are more and more days when the mountains are completly obscured.

Driving over to the California coast, the sky used to be yellow/brown/grey some 70 miles in; now it has expanded to around 110+ miles.

Pollution in these regions has dramatically worsened in my unscientific observations.




is that the result of carbon or sulfur dioxides or some other
pollutant completely unrelated to the whitehouse's claims?

I'm also with Evolving, 27 years in California and LA seems a lot
better than it was 10 years ago.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2909274 - 07/20/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PhillinGroovy said:
Sulfur dioxide results from the burning of some fossil fuels, such as many types of coal, but not, for example, from the burning of gasoline.



Sulfer compounds are present in many crude oils, the cheaper oils usually have more. They are also present in the fuels used (such as LPG and fuel oil) in the refining process as fuel for furnaces. (FYI, I used to work in the Coker/Sulfur Acid division at a Chevron Oil Refinery) Due to environmental concerns and for equipment reliability, entire new plants had been built at oil refineries to remove the sulfur compounds from process streams, that is why SO2 production from burning gasoline is greatly reduced compared to what it once was. Ever smelled a catalytic converter gone bad? That rotten egg smell is sulfer compounds.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909294 - 07/20/04 04:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909299 - 07/20/04 04:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I burn hemp whenever I can.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909347 - 07/20/04 04:30 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

He said clean-burning!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2909397 - 07/20/04 04:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

no, no, no, evolving uses a b0ng to ensure his hemp
burning is of the utmost purity.


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2909508 - 07/20/04 05:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

burning any organic matter is still burning carbon... anything with a long carbon chain will combust into CO2... plant matter such as soy/hemp/etc is just less carbon intensive and is a step towards no net CO2 emissions.


afoaf--no worries.  :sun:


--------------------
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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909564 - 07/20/04 06:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

But the CO2 released from burning organic material comes from a "new" source. CO2 from fossil fuels has been trapped for millions of years and thus creates a problem.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909576 - 07/20/04 06:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?

how much are you willing to pay for it?

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909586 - 07/20/04 06:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909588 - 07/20/04 06:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?

how much are you willing to pay for it?



More appropriately, how much is the average American willing to pay for it?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: newuser1492]
    #2909596 - 07/20/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

what's the diff?

CO2 is CO2, right?


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2909609 - 07/20/04 06:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

where there are people willing to produce and sell methanol fuel at a price for which people are willing to buy it, there will be methanol fuel.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2909628 - 07/20/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

CO2 is CO2, right?

digging up carbon that was buried over millions of years, and burning in a couple hundred years, is a little bit of a shock. it's different than burning renewable biomass.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909633 - 07/20/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)



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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909644 - 07/20/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"Pyrolysis is the technique of applying high heat to organic matter (lignocellulosic materials) in the absence of air or in reduced air to produce charcoal, condensable organic liquids (pyrolytic fuel oil), non-condensable gasses, acetic acid, acetone and methanol. The process can be adjusted to favor charcoal, methanol, pyrolytic oil or gasoline, at 95.5% fuel-to-feed efficiency. It uses the same technology now used to process crude fossil fuel oil and coal."

that sounds pretty promising. how much more expensive would it be to produce than petroleum-based fuels? what sort of modifications would current furnaces and engines need to burn this fuel?

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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909664 - 07/20/04 06:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

the idea with soy/hemp and biodiesel in general is that there are no NET emissions, the plants grown uptook CO2 from the atmosphere and then burning it gives it back...

the problem with fossil fuels (as already pointed out) is that we are taking carbon from a different part of the cycle and burning it, throwing everything out of whack (ahem, 390 ppm CO2 which is the highest it's ever been...)


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909679 - 07/20/04 06:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

check this out - http://www.hempcar.org/biofacts.shtml

biodiesel (such as that produced from hemp) is the only alternative fuel that can be used in any unmodified diesel engine. Thus no modifications are necessary, just diesel engines.

Since it is a renewable resource that can be grown practically anywhere in the world.. and can be converted to fuel using the same equipment we use currently.. it is less expensive to produce, and better for the economy.

Hemp can produce over 10 tons of biomass per acre every 90-120 days, it is pest resistant, can be grown in rotation with food crops or on land where food crops are not profitable, not to mention it produces more oxygen. As pointed out previously planting 6% of the US with hemp would produce enough biomass for all of its energy needs.. US being the top consumer of energy.

Quote:

jackherer.com said:
On a global scale, the plant that produces the most net biomass is hemp. It's the only annually renewable plant on Earth able to replace all fossil fuels.




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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909691 - 07/20/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

k, here's another angle...

what's the hold up?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2909695 - 07/20/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The oil companies.


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909697 - 07/20/04 06:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

this just in, by the way...

www.ucsusa.org/documents/Scientific_Integrity_in_Policy_Making_July_2004.pdf

"On February 18, 2004, 62 preeminent scientists including Nobel laureates, National Medal of Science recipients, former senior advisers to administrations of both parties, numerous members of the National Academy of Sciences, and other well-known researchers released a statement titled Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policy Making. In this statement, the scientists charged the Bush administration with widespread and unprecedented "manipulation of the process through which science enters into its decisions." The scientists? statement made brief reference to specific cases that illustrate this pattern of behavior. In conjunction with the statement, the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) released detailed documentation backing up the scientists? charges in its report, Scientific Integrity in Policy Making.

Since the release of the UCS report in February, the administration has continued to undermine the integrity of science in policy making seemingly unchecked. Many scientists have spoken out about their frustration with an administration that has undermined the quality of the science that informs policy making by suppressing, distorting, or manipulating the work done by scientists at federal agencies and on scientific advisory panels. For instance, Michael Kelly, a biologist who had served at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration?s National Marine Fisheries Service for nine years, recently resigned his position and issued an indictment of Bush administration practices. As Kelly wrote, "I speak for many of my fellow biologists who are embarrassed and disgusted by the agency?s apparent misuse of science."1

Scientific Integrity in Policy Making: Further investigation of the Bush administration's abuse of science investigates several new incidents that have surfaced since the February 2004 UCS report. These new incidents have been corroborated through in-depth interviews and internal government documents, including some documents released through the Freedom of Information Act. The cases that follow include:

egregious disregard of scientific study, across several agencies, regarding the environmental impacts of mountaintop removal mining;
censorship and distortion of scientific analysis, and manipulation of the scientific process, across several issues and agencies in regard to the Endangered Species Act;
distortion of scientific knowledge in decisions about emergency contraception;
new evidence about the use of political litmus tests for scientific advisory panel appointees. These new revelations put to rest any arguments offered by the administration that the cases to date have been isolated incidents involving a few bad actors.
Concern in the scientific community has continued to grow. In the months since the original UCS report, more than 4,000 scientists have signed onto the scientists? statement. Signers include 48 Nobel laureates, 62 National Medal of Science recipients, and 127 members of the National Academy of Sciences. A number of these scientists have served in multiple administrations, both Democratic and Republican, underscoring the unprecedented nature of this administration?s practices and demonstrating that the issues of scientific integrity transcend partisan politics.

The United States has an impressive history of investing in and reaping the benefits of scientific research. The actions by the Bush administration threaten to undermine the morale and compromise the integrity of scientists working for and advising America?s world-class governmental research institutions and agencies. Not only does the public expect and deserve government to provide it with accurate information, the government has a responsibility to ensure that policy decisions are not based on intentionally or knowingly flawed science. To do so carries serious implications for the health, safety, and environment of all Americans.

Given the lack of serious consideration and response by the administration to concerns raised by scores of prominent scientists, UCS is committed to continuing to investigate and publicize cases?corroborated by witnesses and documentation?in which politics is allowed to stifle or distort the integrity of the scientific process in governmental policy making. UCS?working with scientists across many disciplines, other organizations, and elected officials?will also seek to develop and implement solutions that will protect government scientists from retribution when they bring scientific abuse to light, provide better scientific advice to Congress, strengthen the role of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, strengthen and ensure adherence to conflict of interest guidelines for federal advisory panels, and ensure full access to government scientific analysis that has not been legitimately classified for national security reasons."

from http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/page.cfm?pageID=1449


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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909705 - 07/20/04 06:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

so is hemp more efficient than soy in terms of growing time and energy per unit of energy output?


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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909755 - 07/20/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure exactly as I don't have all the specs on soybeans.... but each acre of hemp can yeild 1,000 gallons of methanol, it has a heating value of 5000-8000 BTU/lb.. in terms of biomass production hemp is number one out of any plant on earth, so I would make an educated guess that it would be slightly more efficient than soy.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909761 - 07/20/04 06:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

My understanding is that corn is also an efficient organic source, though I'm not sure how it compares.


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909784 - 07/20/04 07:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Not only can hemp be used for fuel, but can also be used to make plastics, bricks, building planks, paper, textiles, paint, varnish, oils, and lubricants.

hemp can be pressed into a variety of forms to replace wooden materials.. it is stronger and more flexible than timber, and more financially and environmentally beneficial.

Source - http://www.jackherer.com/chapter09.html

Hempseed contains 30% (by volume) oil. This oil has been used to make high-grade diesel fuel oil and aircraft engine and precision machine oil. Throughout history, hempseed oil was used for lighting in oil lamps. Legend says the genie's lamp burned hempseed oil, as did Abraham the prophet's. In Abraham Lincoln's time only whale oil came near hempseed oil in popularity for fuel.

Hemp stems are 80% hurds (pulp byproduct after the hemp fiber is removed from the plant). Hemp hurds are 77% cellulose - a primary chemical feed stock (industrial raw material) used in the production of chemicals, plastics and fibers. Depending on which U.S. agricultural report is correct, an acre of full grown hemp plants can sustainably provide from four to 50 or even 100 times the cellulose found in cornstalks, kenaf, or sugar cane - the planet's next highest annual cellulose plants.

In most places, hemp can be harvested twice a year and, in warmer areas such as Southern California, Texas, Florida and the like, it could be a year-round crop. Hemp has a short growing season and can be planted after food crops have been harvested.


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2909791 - 07/20/04 07:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hemp can produce 10 times more methanol than corn. - http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml#one


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909851 - 07/20/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Since it is a renewable resource that can be grown practically anywhere in the world.. and can be converted to fuel using the same equipment we use currently.. it is less expensive to produce, and better for the economy.

that's the part i'm skeptical about. is biodiesel really cheaper than regular diesel? i very much doubt it. if it was, investors would be jumping on it. you say that the oil companies are to blame for its stagnation, but why? what are they doing to hamper the development of biomass fuels such as biodiesel?

if biodiesel is indeed cheaper to produce than petroleum-based diesel, any oil company that developed production of it (bearing in mind that oil companies, with their current assets, are already in the best position to offer biodiesel cheaply) would profit enormously.

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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909862 - 07/20/04 07:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

hence the complete rediculousness of the war on drugs and hemp being illegal, since no one can lose.
even if it were more expensive to produce than fossil fuels.. so what? the pros would still outweigh the cons by a landslide.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909870 - 07/20/04 07:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

hence the complete rediculousness of the war on drugs and hemp being illegal, since no one can lose.

there are many places in the world where hemp is legal. even there, hemp-based biodiesel hasn't replaced petroleum.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909901 - 07/20/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

absent forceful restraint, most people will tend to use energy sources which are cheapest. other than the ban on hemp, which affects only a small part of the world, there is no forceful restraint against the development of hemp-based biofuels. the fact of the matter is that petroleum is still cheaper, in general economic terms, than biomass.

in order to change this, petroleum must become more expensive or biomass fuel must become cheaper. the question is (and maybe this will get this thread, though now off-topic, perhaps at least back into the realm of PAL):

should forceful restraint be employed to foster these changes? what (if anything) should the government do here?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909937 - 07/20/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
you say that the oil companies are to blame for its stagnation, but why? what are they doing to hamper the development of biomass fuels such as biodiesel?



I don't know for sure, but I can do some pretty good guesswork. The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives. I've heard that these corporations are one of the main supporters of hemp prohibition. Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence? I'm sure you could find a bunch of other instances of government intervention in this area.

Quote:

if biodiesel is indeed cheaper to produce than petroleum-based diesel, any oil company that developed production of it (bearing in mind that oil companies, with their current assets, are already in the best position to offer biodiesel cheaply) would profit enormously.



But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition.


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909939 - 07/20/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

not yet... but eyes are beginning to open...

actually biodiesel has been used with more and more frequency for over 20 years in europe.. and russia and MANY other countries are also thinking about making the switch.

http://belize1.com/BzLibrary/trust512.html
http://www.globalhemp.com/News/2003/June/crops_offer_fuel.html


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2909965 - 07/20/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
absent forceful restraint, most people will tend to use energy sources which are cheapest. other than the ban on hemp, which affects only a small part of the world, there is no forceful restraint against the development of hemp-based biofuels. the fact of the matter is that petroleum is still cheaper, in general economic terms, than biomass.

in order to change this, petroleum must become more expensive or biomass fuel must become cheaper. the question is (and maybe this will get this thread, though now off-topic, perhaps at least back into the realm of PAL):

should forceful restraint be employed to foster these changes? what (if anything) should the government do here?




Legalize hemp.

Hemp? - The Official Plant of the Revolution!

Viva la Revoluci?n!


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2910092 - 07/20/04 08:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives.

perhaps, but oil companies, with their current assets, are the ones in the position to profit most from developing cheaper fuels. it's simply not in their interest to forestall new methods for creating cheap hydrocarbon-based fuel.

Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence?

that's more of a subsidy for farmers. it keeps the price of corn from falling so low that large numbers of corn farmers lose their farms. at the same time, it does increase the price (and reduce the supply) of raw material for producing ethanol (and food), but i don't think it's a major factor. you know i'm all for eliminating such interferences in the market, but i do seriously doubt that eliminating this one would suddenly make biofuels replace petroleum.

But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition.

nah, they can change, and certainly would, if it meant profit. the change wouldn't even be a large one. much of their current capital could be used in the production, transport, and sale of renewable hydrocarbon fuels.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2910095 - 07/20/04 08:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Legalize hemp.

that's a start, but this alone wouldn't cause hemp biofuel to replace petroleum. hemp is legal in a lot of places, and hemp-based fuels haven't taken on there, have they?

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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2910124 - 07/20/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives.

perhaps, but oil companies, with their current assets, are the ones in the position to profit most from developing cheaper fuels. it's simply not in their interest to forestall new methods for creating cheap hydrocarbon-based fuel.



What about the countries that sell us the oil? Saudi Arabia doesn't have a very good climate for producing biodiesel fuel, but what they do have is lots and lots of oil. If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.

Quote:

Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence?

that's more of a subsidy for farmers. it keeps the price of corn from falling so low that large numbers of corn farmers lose their farms. at the same time, it does increase the price (and reduce the supply) of raw material for producing ethanol (and food), but i don't think it's a major factor. you know i'm all for eliminating such interferences in the market, but i do seriously doubt that eliminating this one would suddenly make biofuels replace petroleum.



Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.

Quote:

But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition.

nah, they can change, and certainly would, if it meant profit. the change wouldn't even be a large one. much of their current capital could be used in the production, transport, and sale of renewable hydrocarbon fuels.



Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2910138 - 07/20/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

no, but they are starting to do this in many 'civilized' countries around the world.
In my reality and the country I live in, hemp is not legal. and like it or not, the US and certain groups are a major influence on the petroleum trade and the repression of alternative fuels.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2910170 - 07/20/04 08:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.

you are talking about a situation which would be better for us and worse for them. you seem to have lost sight of that. the only reason we're tight with them is because they have something we want. take that away....

Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.

there are similar agricultural subsidies for milk and tobacco.

Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.

not necessarily. i don't think that our government is keeping us on fossil fuels, to the dismay of the oilmen, simply to help our relations with oil exporters. this administration, and those before it, have tried to reduce our dependence on foriegn oil.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2910172 - 07/20/04 08:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

the US and certain groups are a major influence on the petroleum trade and the repression of alternative fuels.

i find that hard to believe.

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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2910186 - 07/20/04 08:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i don't buy into this idea that government regulation is hampering the development of alternative fuel sources. tomorrow, if the government just went, "alright... hands off the energy industry" i do not believe that this would spur growth in alternative fuel sources.

even in a lassiez-faire situation, petroleum is still king.

petroleum is the cheapest thing out there right now. changing that is going to require governmental force in favor of alternative fuels, not merely the removal of government enforcement in favor of petroleum. i wish it were not this way, but it is.

Edited by mushmaster (07/20/04 09:00 PM)

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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2910250 - 07/20/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.

you are talking about a situation which would be better for us and worse for them. you seem to have lost sight of that. the only reason we're tight with them is because they have something we want. take that away....



But what about the oil companies' ties to those countries? Switching to biodiesel would be a big gamble for an oil company, and if the Saudis saw them trying to lean towards alternative fuels, they might give their oil contracts to some other company that's willing to play by their rules.

Quote:

Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.

there are similar agricultural subsidies for milk and tobacco.



I'm aware of that, but the price of corn is more of a concern for oil companies than for agriculture.

Quote:

Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.

not necessarily. i don't think that our government is keeping us on fossil fuels, to the dismay of the oilmen, simply to help our relations with oil exporters. this administration, and those before it, have tried to reduce our dependence on foriegn oil.



Don't confuse lip service with actual effort.


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
    #2910268 - 07/20/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i don't buy into this idea that government regulation is hampering the development of alternative fuel sources. tomorrow, if the government just went, "alright... hands off the energy industry" i do not believe that this would spur growth in alternative fuel sources.

even in a lassiez-faire situation, petroleum is still king.



I'm sure it would still be widely used, but it would have a lot more competition, and the oil companies most likely don't want to take that risk.

Quote:

petroleum is the cheapest thing out there right now. changing that is going to require governmental force in favor of alternative fuels, not merely the removal of government enforcement in favor of petroleum. i wish it were not this way, but it is.



Perhaps it is that way now, but probably not for long. Petroleum is a non-renewable resource, so as the world's oil supply goes down, prices will continue to skyrocket until biodiesel is more affordable(if it isn't already).


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2911626 - 07/21/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

dude, easy on the conspiracy theories...

do you have any idea how many american crops
are subsidized?

just because corn happens to be similarly efficient
compared to hemp and corn has a subsidy doesn't
mean that there is a vast conspiracy to hold the
corn down....

it's just indicative of a dysfunctional domestic
agriculture policy.

can I grow hemp?

didn't they just lift or are considering lifting the ban
on domestic production?


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2911984 - 07/21/04 10:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dude, easy on the conspiracy theories...



Conspiracy theories? I thought it was common knowledge that our government is controlled by corporate interests.

Quote:

just because corn happens to be similarly efficient
compared to hemp and corn has a subsidy doesn't
mean that there is a vast conspiracy to hold the
corn down...



I'm sure there are other reasons why they have subsidies for corn, but I'm just saying that the oil companies have a vested interest in them.

Quote:

can I grow hemp?

didn't they just lift or are considering lifting the ban
on domestic production?



Some have advocated this. Do you really think the Bush administration will allow this without a fight?


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
    #2911999 - 07/21/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

sure, corporate interests weigh heavily in government
and, sure, oil companies probably aren't very keen on
an explosion of domestic hemp production, but the corn
subsidies have existed for years and years and years
before the hemp movement even existed.

just because there are plausible interests doesn't imply
widespread conspiracy.


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OfflinePhillinGroovy
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2912751 - 07/21/04 03:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Here is an interesting article on corn subsidies and the use of alcohol (ethanol in this case) as fuel.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html

For those to lazy to rtfa, the conclusion is that it is unclear, and unlikely, that the energy produced by burning ethanol exceeds the energy used to power tractors, make fertilizer, and distill the alcohol.
Of course, this refers only to producing ethanol from corn, not to any other schemes to use biomass as an energy source.


I don't think it's likely that hemp is the magical bullet for our energy woes. Before I accept any claim that 6% of the US planted w/ hemp would solve our energy problems, I'd have to see results from a large scale pilot plant - maybe sombody could build one in Australia?

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2913059 - 07/21/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Wow does that suck. I had no idea. What a stupid fucking government program. Thanks for the link.

Check this one out. I saw it on a TV show. They have this energy plant in Missouri that makes oil from unused turkey parts. It sits adjacent to a butterball plant. They get no government subsidy and they make a clean and efficient fuel. Goes to show you that the private market can accomplish some things well, while the government program for corn is actually using more energy than they produce. It is an interesting concept...

http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Oil-From-Turkey8jun03.htm


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2913080 - 07/21/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I think we could use a number of sources for biodiesel fuel, hemp being just one of them. And I agree, government is the problem, not the solution.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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