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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909937 - 07/20/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: you say that the oil companies are to blame for its stagnation, but why? what are they doing to hamper the development of biomass fuels such as biodiesel?
I don't know for sure, but I can do some pretty good guesswork. The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives. I've heard that these corporations are one of the main supporters of hemp prohibition. Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence? I'm sure you could find a bunch of other instances of government intervention in this area.
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if biodiesel is indeed cheaper to produce than petroleum-based diesel, any oil company that developed production of it (bearing in mind that oil companies, with their current assets, are already in the best position to offer biodiesel cheaply) would profit enormously.
But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909939 - 07/20/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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not yet... but eyes are beginning to open...
actually biodiesel has been used with more and more frequency for over 20 years in europe.. and russia and MANY other countries are also thinking about making the switch.
http://belize1.com/BzLibrary/trust512.html http://www.globalhemp.com/News/2003/June/crops_offer_fuel.html
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909965 - 07/20/04 07:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: absent forceful restraint, most people will tend to use energy sources which are cheapest. other than the ban on hemp, which affects only a small part of the world, there is no forceful restraint against the development of hemp-based biofuels. the fact of the matter is that petroleum is still cheaper, in general economic terms, than biomass. in order to change this, petroleum must become more expensive or biomass fuel must become cheaper. the question is (and maybe this will get this thread, though now off-topic, perhaps at least back into the realm of PAL): should forceful restraint be employed to foster these changes? what (if anything) should the government do here?
Legalize hemp. Hemp? - The Official Plant of the Revolution! Viva la Revoluci?n!
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2910092 - 07/20/04 08:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives. perhaps, but oil companies, with their current assets, are the ones in the position to profit most from developing cheaper fuels. it's simply not in their interest to forestall new methods for creating cheap hydrocarbon-based fuel. Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence? that's more of a subsidy for farmers. it keeps the price of corn from falling so low that large numbers of corn farmers lose their farms. at the same time, it does increase the price (and reduce the supply) of raw material for producing ethanol (and food), but i don't think it's a major factor. you know i'm all for eliminating such interferences in the market, but i do seriously doubt that eliminating this one would suddenly make biofuels replace petroleum. But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition. nah, they can change, and certainly would, if it meant profit. the change wouldn't even be a large one. much of their current capital could be used in the production, transport, and sale of renewable hydrocarbon fuels.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2910095 - 07/20/04 08:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Legalize hemp.
that's a start, but this alone wouldn't cause hemp biofuel to replace petroleum. hemp is legal in a lot of places, and hemp-based fuels haven't taken on there, have they?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2910124 - 07/20/04 08:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: The oil corporations are deep in the pockets of the government, especially an administration run by former oil executives.
perhaps, but oil companies, with their current assets, are the ones in the position to profit most from developing cheaper fuels. it's simply not in their interest to forestall new methods for creating cheap hydrocarbon-based fuel.
What about the countries that sell us the oil? Saudi Arabia doesn't have a very good climate for producing biodiesel fuel, but what they do have is lots and lots of oil. If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.
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Also, you may remember I mentioned corn earlier. The government actually pays farmers to NOT grow corn beyond a certain point. Coincidence?
that's more of a subsidy for farmers. it keeps the price of corn from falling so low that large numbers of corn farmers lose their farms. at the same time, it does increase the price (and reduce the supply) of raw material for producing ethanol (and food), but i don't think it's a major factor. you know i'm all for eliminating such interferences in the market, but i do seriously doubt that eliminating this one would suddenly make biofuels replace petroleum.
Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.
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But then they wouldn't be oil companies, would they? They're in the business of drilling for oil and selling it. They don't like competition.
nah, they can change, and certainly would, if it meant profit. the change wouldn't even be a large one. much of their current capital could be used in the production, transport, and sale of renewable hydrocarbon fuels.
Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2910138 - 07/20/04 08:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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no, but they are starting to do this in many 'civilized' countries around the world. In my reality and the country I live in, hemp is not legal. and like it or not, the US and certain groups are a major influence on the petroleum trade and the repression of alternative fuels.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2910170 - 07/20/04 08:41 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.
you are talking about a situation which would be better for us and worse for them. you seem to have lost sight of that. the only reason we're tight with them is because they have something we want. take that away....
Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.
there are similar agricultural subsidies for milk and tobacco.
Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.
not necessarily. i don't think that our government is keeping us on fossil fuels, to the dismay of the oilmen, simply to help our relations with oil exporters. this administration, and those before it, have tried to reduce our dependence on foriegn oil.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2910172 - 07/20/04 08:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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the US and certain groups are a major influence on the petroleum trade and the repression of alternative fuels.
i find that hard to believe.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2910186 - 07/20/04 08:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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i don't buy into this idea that government regulation is hampering the development of alternative fuel sources. tomorrow, if the government just went, "alright... hands off the energy industry" i do not believe that this would spur growth in alternative fuel sources. even in a lassiez-faire situation, petroleum is still king. petroleum is the cheapest thing out there right now. changing that is going to require governmental force in favor of alternative fuels, not merely the removal of government enforcement in favor of petroleum. i wish it were not this way, but it is.
Edited by mushmaster (07/20/04 09:00 PM)
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silversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2910250 - 07/20/04 09:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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mushmaster said: If we switched to biodiesel, their economy would be crushed. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about Saudi Arabia's all-too-close connection to the American government.
you are talking about a situation which would be better for us and worse for them. you seem to have lost sight of that. the only reason we're tight with them is because they have something we want. take that away....
But what about the oil companies' ties to those countries? Switching to biodiesel would be a big gamble for an oil company, and if the Saudis saw them trying to lean towards alternative fuels, they might give their oil contracts to some other company that's willing to play by their rules.
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Maybe not, but it's hard not to see an ulterior motive here.
there are similar agricultural subsidies for milk and tobacco.
I'm aware of that, but the price of corn is more of a concern for oil companies than for agriculture.
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Resulting in a breakdown in our current foreign relations to oil-producing countries.
not necessarily. i don't think that our government is keeping us on fossil fuels, to the dismay of the oilmen, simply to help our relations with oil exporters. this administration, and those before it, have tried to reduce our dependence on foriegn oil.
Don't confuse lip service with actual effort.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2910268 - 07/20/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: i don't buy into this idea that government regulation is hampering the development of alternative fuel sources. tomorrow, if the government just went, "alright... hands off the energy industry" i do not believe that this would spur growth in alternative fuel sources.
even in a lassiez-faire situation, petroleum is still king.
I'm sure it would still be widely used, but it would have a lot more competition, and the oil companies most likely don't want to take that risk.
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petroleum is the cheapest thing out there right now. changing that is going to require governmental force in favor of alternative fuels, not merely the removal of government enforcement in favor of petroleum. i wish it were not this way, but it is.
Perhaps it is that way now, but probably not for long. Petroleum is a non-renewable resource, so as the world's oil supply goes down, prices will continue to skyrocket until biodiesel is more affordable(if it isn't already).
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2911626 - 07/21/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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dude, easy on the conspiracy theories...
do you have any idea how many american crops are subsidized?
just because corn happens to be similarly efficient compared to hemp and corn has a subsidy doesn't mean that there is a vast conspiracy to hold the corn down....
it's just indicative of a dysfunctional domestic agriculture policy.
can I grow hemp?
didn't they just lift or are considering lifting the ban on domestic production?
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silversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
#2911984 - 07/21/04 10:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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dude, easy on the conspiracy theories...
Conspiracy theories? I thought it was common knowledge that our government is controlled by corporate interests.
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just because corn happens to be similarly efficient compared to hemp and corn has a subsidy doesn't mean that there is a vast conspiracy to hold the corn down...
I'm sure there are other reasons why they have subsidies for corn, but I'm just saying that the oil companies have a vested interest in them.
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can I grow hemp? didn't they just lift or are considering lifting the ban on domestic production?
Some have advocated this. Do you really think the Bush administration will allow this without a fight?
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2911999 - 07/21/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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sure, corporate interests weigh heavily in government and, sure, oil companies probably aren't very keen on an explosion of domestic hemp production, but the corn subsidies have existed for years and years and years before the hemp movement even existed.
just because there are plausible interests doesn't imply widespread conspiracy.
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PhillinGroovy
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
#2912751 - 07/21/04 03:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here is an interesting article on corn subsidies and the use of alcohol (ethanol in this case) as fuel. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031128.html
For those to lazy to rtfa, the conclusion is that it is unclear, and unlikely, that the energy produced by burning ethanol exceeds the energy used to power tractors, make fertilizer, and distill the alcohol. Of course, this refers only to producing ethanol from corn, not to any other schemes to use biomass as an energy source.
I don't think it's likely that hemp is the magical bullet for our energy woes. Before I accept any claim that 6% of the US planted w/ hemp would solve our energy problems, I'd have to see results from a large scale pilot plant - maybe sombody could build one in Australia?
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JesusChrist
Son Of God
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
#2913059 - 07/21/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow does that suck. I had no idea. What a stupid fucking government program. Thanks for the link.
Check this one out. I saw it on a TV show. They have this energy plant in Missouri that makes oil from unused turkey parts. It sits adjacent to a butterball plant. They get no government subsidy and they make a clean and efficient fuel. Goes to show you that the private market can accomplish some things well, while the government program for corn is actually using more energy than they produce. It is an interesting concept...
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Oil-From-Turkey8jun03.htm
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silversoul7
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: JesusChrist]
#2913080 - 07/21/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think we could use a number of sources for biodiesel fuel, hemp being just one of them. And I agree, government is the problem, not the solution.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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