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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909588 - 07/20/04 06:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?
how much are you willing to pay for it?
More appropriately, how much is the average American willing to pay for it?
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: newuser1492]
#2909596 - 07/20/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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what's the diff?
CO2 is CO2, right?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2909609 - 07/20/04 06:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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where there are people willing to produce and sell methanol fuel at a price for which people are willing to buy it, there will be methanol fuel.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
#2909628 - 07/20/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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CO2 is CO2, right?
digging up carbon that was buried over millions of years, and burning in a couple hundred years, is a little bit of a shock. it's different than burning renewable biomass.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909633 - 07/20/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pyrolysis is the technique of applying high heat to organic matter (lignocellulosic materials) in the absence of air or in reduced air to produce charcoal, condensable organic liquids (pyrolytic fuel oil), non-condensable gasses, acetic acid, acetone and methanol. The process can be adjusted to favor charcoal, methanol, pyrolytic oil or gasoline, at 95.5% fuel-to-feed efficiency. It uses the same technology now used to process crude fossil fuel oil and coal. Thus hemp methanol or gasoline can be easily produced at much less of a cost to the consumer and to the environment, since it can be grown domestically, processed using the same equipment we use to process oil, and is easily replenishable. Farming 6% of the US with hemp would take care of all of its energy need. - http://www.jackherer.com/chapter09.html
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909644 - 07/20/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Pyrolysis is the technique of applying high heat to organic matter (lignocellulosic materials) in the absence of air or in reduced air to produce charcoal, condensable organic liquids (pyrolytic fuel oil), non-condensable gasses, acetic acid, acetone and methanol. The process can be adjusted to favor charcoal, methanol, pyrolytic oil or gasoline, at 95.5% fuel-to-feed efficiency. It uses the same technology now used to process crude fossil fuel oil and coal."
that sounds pretty promising. how much more expensive would it be to produce than petroleum-based fuels? what sort of modifications would current furnaces and engines need to burn this fuel?
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess


Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909664 - 07/20/04 06:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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the idea with soy/hemp and biodiesel in general is that there are no NET emissions, the plants grown uptook CO2 from the atmosphere and then burning it gives it back...
the problem with fossil fuels (as already pointed out) is that we are taking carbon from a different part of the cycle and burning it, throwing everything out of whack (ahem, 390 ppm CO2 which is the highest it's ever been...)
-------------------- "Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows." Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909679 - 07/20/04 06:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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check this out - http://www.hempcar.org/biofacts.shtml biodiesel (such as that produced from hemp) is the only alternative fuel that can be used in any unmodified diesel engine. Thus no modifications are necessary, just diesel engines. Since it is a renewable resource that can be grown practically anywhere in the world.. and can be converted to fuel using the same equipment we use currently.. it is less expensive to produce, and better for the economy. Hemp can produce over 10 tons of biomass per acre every 90-120 days, it is pest resistant, can be grown in rotation with food crops or on land where food crops are not profitable, not to mention it produces more oxygen. As pointed out previously planting 6% of the US with hemp would produce enough biomass for all of its energy needs.. US being the top consumer of energy.
Quote:
jackherer.com said: On a global scale, the plant that produces the most net biomass is hemp. It's the only annually renewable plant on Earth able to replace all fossil fuels.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909691 - 07/20/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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k, here's another angle...
what's the hold up?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
#2909695 - 07/20/04 06:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The oil companies.
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess


Registered: 08/28/03
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
#2909697 - 07/20/04 06:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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this just in, by the way...
www.ucsusa.org/documents/Scientific_Integrity_in_Policy_Making_July_2004.pdf
"On February 18, 2004, 62 preeminent scientists including Nobel laureates, National Medal of Science recipients, former senior advisers to administrations of both parties, numerous members of the National Academy of Sciences, and other well-known researchers released a statement titled Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policy Making. In this statement, the scientists charged the Bush administration with widespread and unprecedented "manipulation of the process through which science enters into its decisions." The scientists? statement made brief reference to specific cases that illustrate this pattern of behavior. In conjunction with the statement, the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) released detailed documentation backing up the scientists? charges in its report, Scientific Integrity in Policy Making.
Since the release of the UCS report in February, the administration has continued to undermine the integrity of science in policy making seemingly unchecked. Many scientists have spoken out about their frustration with an administration that has undermined the quality of the science that informs policy making by suppressing, distorting, or manipulating the work done by scientists at federal agencies and on scientific advisory panels. For instance, Michael Kelly, a biologist who had served at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration?s National Marine Fisheries Service for nine years, recently resigned his position and issued an indictment of Bush administration practices. As Kelly wrote, "I speak for many of my fellow biologists who are embarrassed and disgusted by the agency?s apparent misuse of science."1
Scientific Integrity in Policy Making: Further investigation of the Bush administration's abuse of science investigates several new incidents that have surfaced since the February 2004 UCS report. These new incidents have been corroborated through in-depth interviews and internal government documents, including some documents released through the Freedom of Information Act. The cases that follow include:
egregious disregard of scientific study, across several agencies, regarding the environmental impacts of mountaintop removal mining; censorship and distortion of scientific analysis, and manipulation of the scientific process, across several issues and agencies in regard to the Endangered Species Act; distortion of scientific knowledge in decisions about emergency contraception; new evidence about the use of political litmus tests for scientific advisory panel appointees. These new revelations put to rest any arguments offered by the administration that the cases to date have been isolated incidents involving a few bad actors. Concern in the scientific community has continued to grow. In the months since the original UCS report, more than 4,000 scientists have signed onto the scientists? statement. Signers include 48 Nobel laureates, 62 National Medal of Science recipients, and 127 members of the National Academy of Sciences. A number of these scientists have served in multiple administrations, both Democratic and Republican, underscoring the unprecedented nature of this administration?s practices and demonstrating that the issues of scientific integrity transcend partisan politics.
The United States has an impressive history of investing in and reaping the benefits of scientific research. The actions by the Bush administration threaten to undermine the morale and compromise the integrity of scientists working for and advising America?s world-class governmental research institutions and agencies. Not only does the public expect and deserve government to provide it with accurate information, the government has a responsibility to ensure that policy decisions are not based on intentionally or knowingly flawed science. To do so carries serious implications for the health, safety, and environment of all Americans.
Given the lack of serious consideration and response by the administration to concerns raised by scores of prominent scientists, UCS is committed to continuing to investigate and publicize cases?corroborated by witnesses and documentation?in which politics is allowed to stifle or distort the integrity of the scientific process in governmental policy making. UCS?working with scientists across many disciplines, other organizations, and elected officials?will also seek to develop and implement solutions that will protect government scientists from retribution when they bring scientific abuse to light, provide better scientific advice to Congress, strengthen the role of the Office of Science and Technology Policy, strengthen and ensure adherence to conflict of interest guidelines for federal advisory panels, and ensure full access to government scientific analysis that has not been legitimately classified for national security reasons."
from http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/page.cfm?pageID=1449
-------------------- "Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows." Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess


Registered: 08/28/03
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909705 - 07/20/04 06:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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so is hemp more efficient than soy in terms of growing time and energy per unit of energy output?
-------------------- "Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows." Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
#2909755 - 07/20/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not sure exactly as I don't have all the specs on soybeans.... but each acre of hemp can yeild 1,000 gallons of methanol, it has a heating value of 5000-8000 BTU/lb.. in terms of biomass production hemp is number one out of any plant on earth, so I would make an educated guess that it would be slightly more efficient than soy.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!


Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909761 - 07/20/04 06:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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My understanding is that corn is also an efficient organic source, though I'm not sure how it compares.
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  "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909784 - 07/20/04 07:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not only can hemp be used for fuel, but can also be used to make plastics, bricks, building planks, paper, textiles, paint, varnish, oils, and lubricants.
hemp can be pressed into a variety of forms to replace wooden materials.. it is stronger and more flexible than timber, and more financially and environmentally beneficial.
Source - http://www.jackherer.com/chapter09.html
Hempseed contains 30% (by volume) oil. This oil has been used to make high-grade diesel fuel oil and aircraft engine and precision machine oil. Throughout history, hempseed oil was used for lighting in oil lamps. Legend says the genie's lamp burned hempseed oil, as did Abraham the prophet's. In Abraham Lincoln's time only whale oil came near hempseed oil in popularity for fuel.
Hemp stems are 80% hurds (pulp byproduct after the hemp fiber is removed from the plant). Hemp hurds are 77% cellulose - a primary chemical feed stock (industrial raw material) used in the production of chemicals, plastics and fibers. Depending on which U.S. agricultural report is correct, an acre of full grown hemp plants can sustainably provide from four to 50 or even 100 times the cellulose found in cornstalks, kenaf, or sugar cane - the planet's next highest annual cellulose plants.
In most places, hemp can be harvested twice a year and, in warmer areas such as Southern California, Texas, Florida and the like, it could be a year-round crop. Hemp has a short growing season and can be planted after food crops have been harvested.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: silversoul7]
#2909791 - 07/20/04 07:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hemp can produce 10 times more methanol than corn. - http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml#one
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909851 - 07/20/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Since it is a renewable resource that can be grown practically anywhere in the world.. and can be converted to fuel using the same equipment we use currently.. it is less expensive to produce, and better for the economy.
that's the part i'm skeptical about. is biodiesel really cheaper than regular diesel? i very much doubt it. if it was, investors would be jumping on it. you say that the oil companies are to blame for its stagnation, but why? what are they doing to hamper the development of biomass fuels such as biodiesel?
if biodiesel is indeed cheaper to produce than petroleum-based diesel, any oil company that developed production of it (bearing in mind that oil companies, with their current assets, are already in the best position to offer biodiesel cheaply) would profit enormously.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: ]
#2909862 - 07/20/04 07:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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hence the complete rediculousness of the war on drugs and hemp being illegal, since no one can lose. even if it were more expensive to produce than fossil fuels.. so what? the pros would still outweigh the cons by a landslide.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909870 - 07/20/04 07:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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hence the complete rediculousness of the war on drugs and hemp being illegal, since no one can lose.
there are many places in the world where hemp is legal. even there, hemp-based biodiesel hasn't replaced petroleum.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
#2909901 - 07/20/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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absent forceful restraint, most people will tend to use energy sources which are cheapest. other than the ban on hemp, which affects only a small part of the world, there is no forceful restraint against the development of hemp-based biofuels. the fact of the matter is that petroleum is still cheaper, in general economic terms, than biomass.
in order to change this, petroleum must become more expensive or biomass fuel must become cheaper. the question is (and maybe this will get this thread, though now off-topic, perhaps at least back into the realm of PAL):
should forceful restraint be employed to foster these changes? what (if anything) should the government do here?
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