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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Philip K. Dick
    #2908241 - 07/20/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Reality is what continues to exist when we stop believing in it"
-Philip K. Dick


This quote courtesy of exclusive58 got me to thinking about this enigmatic fiction writer. as Dick allegedly was quite mentally ill and out-of-touch with reality for most of the last decade of his life.

In February and March of 1974 Philip had a series of "mystic" experiences. When he died eight years later he was still unsure of their origin or meaning. Left behind was his so-called Exegesis, an 8,000-page, one-million-word continuing dialogue with himself written late at night He never did solve this personal riddle.

He became depressed and thoughts of suicide were intermingled with his belief that he had stumbled on to some great gnostic truth. (How many times have I covered this link between mental illness, suicide and religion?)

At one point in his break from reality, he even worried over whether he had inadvertently published high-level government secrets in his novels.

*Sigh* Another great mind falls into the delusional rabbit-hole of discovering some cosmic "secret".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908375 - 07/20/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

link between mental illness, suicide and religion

If there is a constant link then wouldn't you think there is some significance to it? Why is anyone who stumbles upon a possible higher meaning of reality without drugs labeled with "mental illness"?


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908540 - 07/20/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think you've presented a very strong case for a link, Swami. So far you've only given anecdotal evidence- something you decry when others use it to prove their point.

Do you have some sort of conclusive evidence you're withholding?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2908573 - 07/20/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Dick's writing and persona changed dramatically and negatively shortly after his self-proclaimed mystical experiences. They certainly did not make him a happier nor more stable individual.

synopsis of article: PKD, The Unicorn and Soviet Psychotronics, which addressed--among other things--Soviet mind control experiments utilizing technologies discovered by Serbian inventor Nikola Tesla around the turn of the century.

PKD, of course, was Philip K. Dick, the late great speculative fiction novelist, who believed many strange things had happened to his head during the seventies, one such event being an alien invasion with just this type of Tesla technology. Phil later came to believe this Soviet mind control experiment upon his temporal lobe had developed into something far more stranger (if that was at all possible) when an alien entity consisting of pure information skyjacked these psychotronically produced Soviet projections, using them to beam extraterrestrial messages of a benevolent nature into Phil's oft befuddled mind.


Yes, this is anecdote, but certainly follows the oft-repeated pattern of cosmic message, aliens, mind control, depression and schizophrenia.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908648 - 07/20/04 03:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

hebrephrenia a variant of schizophrenia which hosts mystic conversations with greater beings and through which a strong fixation resolves of having been put here for a greater purpose corresponds to what you are talking about.

many suicides, however, are not associated with this, some of those do involve psychoactives.

my brother took himself out of this equation last november. Depressed - yes. Religious? - hmm, he did look into some pop kabbala (like madonna? ester?), but really he never discussed anything other than real estate and sex or alcohol with me.

one can ignore a relationship with ongoing creation in preference for a reality that is fully ratiocinated. Then they can easily substitute themselves for zero and we all lose. It is the double edged sword of being able either to think sharply with words or think gently with gestalts and feelings.
we need both.
we need a balance.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2908724 - 07/20/04 03:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So sorry to hear of your brother's untimely passing.  :frown: How have you been able to come to terms with it?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908725 - 07/20/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

For every case involving cosmic messages/mental illness it would not be hard to find a corresponding one involving materialism and mental illness. I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually easier. How many people die every year from diabetes- a conditionally commonly caused by overeating? How many die by drinking themselves to death? Smoking? The stock broker dies of a heart attack brought on by stress caused by his rampant greed..etc.

Materialism has been associated with just as many, if not more tragic deaths. Like vines said, the determining factor is not the religous overtones, it is lack of balance and perspective.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908755 - 07/20/04 04:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

it is the most unsettling thing for me.
it feels raw every day.
I find the only way to keep my feelings straight for the rest of us is to abide by these raw feelings.
when he went he took some of us too, our assumptions our expectations, our dreams all included him.
it hurts in ways I would not have imagined, it also makes us stronger in a weird way. (like a samurai - seppukhu - nuts(?))
really I do not advise the approach at all. the children are too hurt.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908784 - 07/20/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I find the Philip K Dick scenario completely fascinating. Here are some links for those who know nothing of the man:

General bio - To get a feel for what he was about.
"The Religious Experience of Philip K Dick" By R. Crumb - Neat cartoon thingy.
How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later - An Essay by Philip k Dick, a must read.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2908790 - 07/20/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
For every case involving cosmic messages/mental illness it would not be hard to find a corresponding one involving materialism and mental illness. I wouldn't be surprised if it were actually easier. How many people die every year from diabetes- a conditionally commonly caused by overeating? How many die by drinking themselves to death? Smoking? The stock broker dies of a heart attack brought on by stress caused by his rampant greed..etc.

Materialism has been associated with just as many, if not more tragic deaths. Like vines said, the determining factor is not the religous overtones, it is lack of balance and perspective.




/me points to his nose.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2908840 - 07/20/04 04:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How many people die every year from diabetes- a conditionally commonly caused by overeating? How many die by drinking themselves to death? Smoking? The stock broker dies of a heart attack brought on by stress caused by his rampant greed..etc.
I must say that I am disappointed in you Jellric with this strawman argument. These things, while true, have already been generally acknowledged by secular and religious people and do not bear on this and similar cases.

Like vines said, the determining factor is not the religous overtones, it is lack of balance and perspective.
Hmmm, how do you stay balanced if you believe that you are "the chosen one"; that you have been given "special knowledge" unavailable to almost everyone else; that you have been visited by beings that few others (if any) can see?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908933 - 07/20/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

These things, while true, have already been generally acknowledged by secular and religious people and do not bear on this and similar cases.

If you are making the case, as you seem to, that there is a causal relationship between mystical leanings and mental illness then I have every right to look at the opposite side of the spectrum and point out the greater numbers of cases related to materialism. Not a strawman at all given what you've presented. Maybe you should clarify your position.

Hmmm, how do you stay balanced if you believe that you are "the chosen one"; that you have been given "special knowledge" unavailable to almost everyone else; that you have been visited by beings that few others (if any) can see?

You still haven't proven a causal relationship. Where's your evidence? How do you know that a given person didn't start out with the mental illness and then adopted these wacky beliefs instead of the other way around?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2908967 - 07/20/04 04:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
How many people die every year from diabetes- a conditionally commonly caused by overeating? How many die by drinking themselves to death? Smoking? The stock broker dies of a heart attack brought on by stress caused by his rampant greed..etc.
I must say that I am disappointed in you Jellric with this strawman argument. These things, while true, have already been generally acknowledged by secular and religious people and do not bear on this and similar cases.





How is that? I mean, how does the fact that his statements are generally acknowledged by secular and religious people cause his examples to lose all bearing on this and similar cases?

Are you saying that the only examples you'll accept as credible are ones that do not have a general acknowledgement?

Isn't this directly contradictory to your usual demands for proof that's founded?

Not to mention, you never made any explicit statement of your "statement" in the first place.. the closest thing I could find was "(How many times have I covered this link between mental illness, suicide and religion?)"

You gave an example of a connection you think you've discovered.

He responded with his own example of an undeniable connection that is much more abundant and in need of addressing.

Perhaps he is trying to point out the fact that there are bigger things that need to be addressed before we worry about the very small percentile that's off suiciding because they think they figured out some cosmic truth.

I mean, hell, what about all the people who actively pursue a "cosmic truth" and AREN'T offing themselves?

Does that have any basis here? I really don't know, help me out here...


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2908999 - 07/20/04 05:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

JC, you must remember that only Swami is allowed to imply causal relationships based upon anecdotal evidence. That is strictly verboten for you and me.  :wink:

I think we are about to see the famous Swami shuffle, folks..

*gets out camera*


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Edited by Jellric (07/20/04 05:29 PM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2909089 - 07/20/04 05:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

ROFL..

sounds about right.. this is probably the right time for me to move along. :P

*moves along*


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2909255 - 07/20/04 06:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How is that? I mean, how does the fact that his statements are generally acknowledged by secular and religious people cause his examples to lose all bearing on this and similar cases?

*Double disappointment*  :thumbdown:

Will you or Jellric please explain how the knowledge that over-eating (obesity) and diabetes are linked either makes a case for or against my proposed link between mental illness and mystical leanings.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (07/20/04 06:04 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2909291 - 07/20/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Anecdotes are a starting point for research, but are insufficent for conclusions.

Manson - Messiah

Koresh - Messiah

Jim Jones - Messiah

Reverend Moon - enlightened master

Rajneesh  - enlightened master

100% of known shroomery suicides spoke somewhat like Dick about aliens, other dimensions, end-of-world stuff, shortly before taking their lives.

100% of Mass suicides were religious, end-of-world cults.

Maybe it was because they all ate salsa, but I would venture not.

Is this seeming pattern NOT worth looking at?

P.S. How did I do on the shuffleometer?  :grin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Swami]
    #2909326 - 07/20/04 06:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Will you or Jellric please explain how the knowledge that over-eating (obesity) and diabetes are linked either makes a case for or against my proposed link between mental illness and mystical leanings.

Hey mann, I'm just using this as a starting point for "research". I don't expect you to draw any conclusions from it. And if you point out any flaws in it, I will just slide to the right..

Come on
Get down,

Everybody get on the floor,

and do the Swami Shuffle!


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2909354 - 07/20/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It has a beat and I can dance to it! :tongue2:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Philip K. Dick [Re: Jellric]
    #2909366 - 07/20/04 06:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Seriously, for your point on over-eating to have ANY value, you would have to show that it is mostly relegated to materialists. For your assigment this weekend, please attend the church of your choice and do a rough and unscientific (but I will trust your numbers) of the percentage of the congregation that is obese by your definition.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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