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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 18 years, 11 days
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ]
    #2945955 - 07/30/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

bufo said:
Quote:

While our own culture has been exploiting the planet for a mere 5, 7 maybe 10 thousand years. A glimps at twentieth century history should convince any rational person to do the same. The twenty-first century isn't looking to be any improvement tho I've got it on good word that help is on the way. :wink:

Hoofa! :cool:




The whole "white man's culture has been destroying the earth for millenia" argument is fairly foolish and ignorant. Check out my post on global powers through history in the old "white people are aliens" or somehting similar thread in this forum. Basically, "white" culture, as most people conceive of it, has only really been the dominant force on earth for 200ish years.

And as far as the horrors of the 20th century... it's only a matter of scale, really.

Edited by ferago2 (07/30/04 06:01 PM)

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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2946011 - 07/30/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

wonderful markos....I will have to check out the shaman you and hue have been referring to.  there is still so much for me to learn :smile:

"Dude, I'm a logical man, but please don't ask me again to do differential calculus - I'm a word person. "

if you are a logical man, you can do differential calculus.  The profession I want to go into is really teaching.  just by tutoring people, I know that math, like philosophy is just logic.  I have been able to teach calculus to an algebra student (because they were curious). 

The idea here is that everyone has different leaning styles.  be it auditory, kinesthetic (hands on), visual, etc.  it depends on how you were taught by a teacher in the begging (just like you stated before) and if the teacher didn't even try to teach you to what you are most comfortable with, then yes you're not going to "get it" 

most people are visual learners, especially now and days since many of us were brought up on TV and such, and higher level math (ie algebra and up, minus geometry) doesn't rely a whole lot on visuals as much because it becomes increasingly difficult the higher up you go. 

hehe sorry for the tangent hehe 

if I were to get back onto topic here no one answered my initial question. why would anybody have a belief jsut so it "benefits them"


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: kaiowas]
    #2946290 - 07/30/04 08:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

To do so read: "Ayahuasca Visions: The Religious Iconography of a Peruvian Shaman"
by Luis Eduardo Luna, Pablo Amaringo check Amazon. (.com I mean; no pun intended)

Good read. As for the evils of being a white man, ferago2, as a white (Irish, German, Cherokee all equal mix) man, which I consider myself to be, I find that view irrelevant, racist, and offensive. Other cultures have been conquering each other for millenia. The Native Americans even exterminated each other quite efficiently before the coming of the white man. The whites just had guns...that is all. That does not mean that the culture of the Native Americans cannot integrate to become a valuable part of American culture as it has. Native Americans should be proud of their warrior heritage...but so to should whites, blacks, asians, jews and arabs and etc...

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: kaiowas]
    #2946321 - 07/30/04 08:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Here is an Amazon link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1556430647/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5092500-7938420#reader-link

An Amaringo painting:


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/30/04 08:36 PM)

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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2946353 - 07/30/04 08:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

thank you very much hue

" As for the evils of being a white man, ferago2, as a white (Irish, German, Cherokee all equal mix) man, which I consider myself to be, I find that view irrelevant, racist, and offensive. Other cultures have been conquering each other for millenia. The Native Americans even exterminated each other quite efficiently before the coming of the white man. The whites just had guns...that is all. That does not mean that the culture of the Native Americans cannot integrate to become a valuable part of American culture as it has. Native Americans should be proud of their warrior heritage...but so to should whites, blacks, asians, jews and arabs and etc... "

that's one of the best ways I have ever read it put.  :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 18 years, 11 days
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2946579 - 07/30/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

So do I... that was the point of my post- didn't you read it? :p

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ferago2]
    #2946591 - 07/30/04 09:53 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I never looked at your previous post mentioned, only the last post of yours on this thread...excuse me if I stole your thunder.

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Anonymous

Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2947685 - 07/31/04 07:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Huehuecoyotl:

Quote:

Other cultures have been conquering each other for millenia. The Native Americans even exterminated each other quite efficiently before the coming of the white man.




I am not a cultural anthropologist. I have to base what I say and think about things anthropological on what others have said. On the issue of traditional cultures, Quinn is my access point. According to Quinn, traditional cultures that existed for tens of thousands of years before the current dominant cultural style, which is and has been for some time, according to Quinn, a world-wide phenomenon that encompasses people of all races and nations and religions (nothing whatsoever to do with being white or European or Western) ... according to Quinn traditional cultures did not "conquer" or "exterminate" each other. They fought. The raided. They took revenge. But as a rule, they did not exterminate. There may have been exceptions but as a rule the "exterminating" did not begin until our cultural style (the current world cultural style) began to take shape some 10,000 years ago. He's got a word for it but I don't have my copy of "B" handy... agricultural genocide or imperialism or something. It's what he calls a cultural style. And prior to the advent of this style, we got along swimmingly for tens of thousands of years.

Now, after a mere 5,7 or 10 thousand years of agricultural imperialism (that's not what he called it... it's something... damned alcoholic memory loss :frown:) we are on the brink of extermination.

It's all somewhat complicated and difficult to summarize in a post. Really good read, I thought, and relevant to the direction this thread has taken.

ferago2:

Quote:

The whole "white man's culture has been destroying the earth for millenia" argument is fairly foolish and ignorant. Check out my post on global powers through history in the old "white people are aliens" or somehting similar thread in this forum. Basically, "white" culture, as most people conceive of it, has only really been the dominant force on earth for 200ish years.

And as far as the horrors of the 20th century... it's only a matter of scale, really.




All people the world over with dwindling few exceptions are "white people." This has been the case for a few thousand years now, according to my anthropological access point.

I am going to disagree with you on the "only a matter of scale" bit. It was a matter of scale. It was also much more than a matter of scale.

It's a good read, Quinn. Thanks to the psychedelic community for turning me on to it.  :mushroom2:

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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 18 years, 11 days
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ]
    #2947978 - 07/31/04 09:40 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Come on man, until the 18th century, if not later, the dominant world power was The Ottoman Turkish empire, and before that China. And, before say, 1200 AD and the crusades, "white people" in the sense of Northern and Western Europeans, had virtually no impact on world affairs. The movers and shakers were the Greeks (including their immediate successors in rome), the Egyptians, the Cartheginians (North Africa), the various Middle Eastern peoples, the Indians, the Chinese, and some east african peoples.

In other words, I don't understand how you can assert that "white" people have dominated for millenia, when they've only been ascendent for a few hundred years, tops.

If you still don't get it, I can repost my old post, it has a much better explaination.

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Anonymous

Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ferago2]
    #2948319 - 07/31/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ferago2...

when i said "white people" in quotes above here, i am using the term "white people" in a little bit different way than what folks usually mean when they say "white people." 'white people' are sometimes unfairly blamed for all the evils in the world. sometimes they are fairly blamed, yes...

what i am asserting is only what i understand of an author who i've recently discovered, that is, Quinn. he is tracing the origins of our current cultural and social and societal perdicament back 10,000 plus years to the adoption by our ancestors of a style of living that had not existed prior to 8,000 bc. when i say 'white people' i am referring to what Quinn calls a totalitarian agricultural style of living in the world.

Totalitarian Agriculture! That's it!

Anyway, totalitarian agriculturalists are the 'white people' that i am referring to. Annihilate the competition is their creed (our creed). he's talking about a time before the Turks and Egyptians and Cartheginians, Chinese, Incas, and so on. The Turks, Egyptians, Cartheginians, Chinese, Incas, Greeks, Romans, are all examples of Totalitarian Agriculturalist style cultures. They are all 'white people' aka Totalitarian Agriculturalists. Quinn is saying, it's not a particular race of people, but a particular style of living that represents the origins of our current state of affairs. this cultural style did not come into being until maybe 10,000 years ago. 'white people' or 'brown people' or 'purple people' do not represent the origin. they (we) all adopted this style over time or where wiped-out.

another interesting bit from Quinn... imagine that the stories of the old testament, particularly genesis, were actually stories told about an enemy by a people long since vanquished (exterminated) by the people they were telling the tale about. Quinn goes into it about the serpent and adam and eve... a story about an enemy told by a people long since vanquished by that enemy in an effort to understand how they could be so brutal. strange and provocative stuff.

gotta try and see a little further...

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Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 18 years, 11 days
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ]
    #2948949 - 07/31/04 02:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Then why the hell do you use the term white people? I can say Jews are the root of the worlds problems, and should be annihilated, and then post saying that to me the word jew means criminal, not a follower of Judaism, but I'm still an asshole...

Edited by ferago2 (07/31/04 02:24 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: ]
    #2950502 - 07/31/04 11:31 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"There may have been exceptions but as a rule the "exterminating" did not begin until our cultural style (the current world cultural style) began to take shape some 10,000 years ago"

That is utter bullshit. Many Indian tribes would drive their enemies to extinction. The Blackfoot were known to kill off their enemies while not even adopting the women and children into the tribe. When land and resources were at stake honor went out the window. Primitive cultures have much to admire, but your notion of the "noble" savage is at once racist and demeaning. Most tribal warfare was for the honor of the warriors, but it must be noted that in tribal European society cattle raids were the predominant form of warfare as well. It was carried out to test the warriors. Read the story of Cucuhulain as it is made clear here, and it is much younger than 8000 years old. Our manner of warfare changed when tribes evolved to kingdoms and the modern army was born. This was a response to larger societal groups. Several Native American societies had reached this point as well. Check out a tribe called the Aztecs. The white man and the Indian came into conflict due to their similarities not their disparities...they competed for the same resources.

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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 1 year, 24 days
Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2951021 - 08/01/04 04:13 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Then maybe you should read the reply over again until you understand the difference between 'being told' something by others and imagining that it is true just because they told you so, and 'being recogized' by others in your own right as an authority because you can demonstrate mastery over certain rational processes.

Now your right there is a huge difference between being told something, and then believing it because they told you its true...those are two different things, because you could just be told, and then not believe one way or the other, or you could flat out disagree. The event of being told something then the action of believing it one way or the other are seperate and different events though connected in a sense.

I understand that but im sorry i still see very little distinction between being told something by others and taking their word for it and them "recognizing" basically saying "hey we think you know your shit because you have demonstrated to our satisfaction that u know your shit"...your still assuming that their opinion/methods of measurement of how well you know your shit is correct/accurate and basing your statement that u really know your shit largely on the fact that others recognize/say u know your shit. You also offered that others have benefited from your mastery...but what if you are no master, just deluded, and now you've deluded these poor people...is that likely? probably not...but possible.

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Anonymous

Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2951125 - 08/01/04 06:25 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"There may have been exceptions but as a rule the "exterminating" did not begin until our cultural style (the current world cultural style) began to take shape some 10,000 years ago"

That is utter bullshit.




utter bullshit? please explain the difference between utter bullshit and say... simple bullshit.

utter bullshit would seem to me to be a near oxymoron distiguishable by a pseudoautosomal region or two. mu

like i said, i'm no cultural anthropologist, just another bookish  man-waif wannabe. :smirk:

i do agree with you Hue when you say that traditional peoples may have a thing or two to teach us. :thumbup:

Quote:

shamanality said:
bufo, very well said.




thank you shamanality. :smile:

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