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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Dancing around a fire
    #2904277 - 07/19/04 02:45 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have found that many people equate religion with ritual. Upon telling people that I have an interest in shamanism I get many responses like do I dance around a fire or beat a drum while wearing a feathered mask. People often do not understand that faith is the only component required for any religious belief. Rituals in a social setting such as a Catholic church can assume a picturesque inspiring quality, this is for our viewing pleasure not God's, but the ritual is not the religion. Having faith in your God, pantheon, spirits, or whatever requires no ceremony at all. What do you all think about the place of ritual in religion? My view is known.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904304 - 07/19/04 02:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If I weight train regularly and you do not; then unless you are genetically gifted or do physical labor, pound for pound, I will be stronger than you.

If you have faith and I do not, what can you do that I cannot? (Remember what you said about practicality.)


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904313 - 07/19/04 03:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What is practical for me may not be practical for you. Remember the reality is subjective thread.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904331 - 07/19/04 03:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Speaking of dancing around the fire...

Real practices (such as weight-training) work FOR ALL people; albeit not to the same degree.

What potential benefit does faith hold for me?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904336 - 07/19/04 03:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It may not hold any benefit for you as it is not part of your world view, and if you are doing well without it, then you probably don't need the complication you would percieve it to be. I ain't selling anything.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904351 - 07/19/04 03:17 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I ain't selling anything.

This thread is as much about the negative selling of the need for ritual as my post was on the negative selling of the need for faith.

Quite ironic!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904367 - 07/19/04 03:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I am just asking for opinions. I don't care for ritual myself, but some may and they are welcome. What I meant was that I am not naive enough to think I'm going to sell anything to you. I appreciate the thought you give your posts as this shows care and respect.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904383 - 07/19/04 03:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Ritual: is some thing of a habbit. You form a daily ritual to greet the world every day. Some stray away from waking up to find peace in there dreams some wake up giving praise for the new day with offerings. To me ritual is part of every day life. You almost always start and end each day in the same manor. It may be a way to focus, a time to think and reflect a time to just praise/hate life.

Some peoples ritual is waking up throwing a pot of coffee on, grabing the newspapper and going in to the pisser to take a dump.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904385 - 07/19/04 03:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

One can sell me something if they can clearly show it's value, whether it be material or spiritual goods.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #2904386 - 07/19/04 03:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't really consider habits as rituals in a religious sense. It is true that some rituals can be a form of meditation for those involved.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904393 - 07/19/04 03:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Faith is something that one can only sell one's self. Then, one has to feel the need or calling. If you sell faith to strangers,though, they expect a warantee. I know some Jehovah's Witness' that will sell you some if you really need it bad, but it ain't cheap.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904394 - 07/19/04 03:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well I see a spiritual side in habit. Its You the way you live might as well make it a focal point in the way you live your life. Wake up greet the morning with offerings for the day to come, may it be a dump or some coffee grinds in the compost as long as its in a form of some gratitude I see it as ritualy giving thanks to all things that need thanks as long as you so direct it.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904499 - 07/19/04 05:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"What potential benefit does faith hold for me? "

the reason to have faith is to just benefit yourself?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2904561 - 07/19/04 06:48 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think rituals can be good in that they help u to think about your faith, and express it, but just like any social thing they also tend to get twisted. or the importance is placed on the ritual and not the faith or the personal search for answers/questions. And those who dont do it the "right" way or as often as others think they should get judged, and that doesnt seem fair to me. Personally i find little use for them but thats me, i dont think there is anything wrong with them in theory...its just in practice that they tend to sometimes do as much harm as good.

Swami... are u an aethiest? if so...wouldnt that require faith, faith that your right, since u cant really know for sure, or at the very least a measure of belief. Also isnt there some faith involved in the enlightenment experience?..you have it, u know how things are now, who u are, why u are...whatever knowledge is imparted to u during the experience and possibly after.. but its hard to articulate and even harder to prove to anyone but yourself, so u just have to have faith in its validity. In fact from my experience i would call it a faith state, and much of what is often considered faith, to just be mere belief...but thats me, and im not even sure if your aethiest so if your not nevermind :wink:

Oh and as far as the question of god goes...the ability to prove gods existance to a degree that we would generally called actual proof, depends greatly on how you define god. For me i call God the "one" the system, universe/ multiverse...whatever. Or at the least the creative and possibly maintainive force behind it. And i pretty much leave it at that, because thats about all im fairly sure of, any more and im not even making educated guesses...im just guessing. To me thats god...and its here so regardless if this is a dream, a computer program, or real in the traditional sense, it proves that god is real...my idea of god anyways. I also believe that it or the creator of it all, if it wasnt self created, is conscience...but thats where faith comes in...cant really prove it except in the sense that we are likely a part of it, and we are conscience to some degree, so it seems likely what spawned us could/should be conscience also.

Thats just how it feels to mea also, i even find it difficult to concieve of the other possiblity...so i believe, maybe it isnt faith, just belief..but i've had an experience that i can only equate to a "faith state" in which i no longer just believed...i knew it, or felt as i did anyways. Lot more to the experience then that, but i've already written about all that in other posts.

Maybe that was just my subjective interpretation, but it was as real, true and profound as anything i have ever experience...more so even, now i'm afraid im mostly back to belief, and have lost the actual feeling of faith, cause i think thats what faith really is, a state of being, like love almost, its damn near tangible unlike belief or opinion. Just my 2 cents anyways


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2905294 - 07/19/04 01:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You DO have faith - faith in the rational mind and in its interpretation of sensory data. It IS possible to shake that faith if you were to 'train' with a genuine shaman, like the one I met some years ago (who has published a book on ayahuasca visionary art) named Pablo Amaringo. Not only would your sensory data be altered, but your rational mind might find itself overwhelmed by a powerful non-rational, yet cohesive world-view (a religion, if you will). Of course, you would have to choose to have your current rational world-view exploded, and then you would come away with a stronger appreciation of the plurality of world-views even if you selected to return to your rationalist perspective.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2905354 - 07/19/04 02:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You DO have faith - faith in the rational mind and in its interpretation of sensory data.
I do not need faith to witness cause and effect. I do not need faith for my TV and computer (some fruits of rationality) they work independently of my mindset.

It IS possible to shake that faith if you were to 'train' with a genuine shaman, like the one I met some years ago (who has published a book on ayahuasca visionary art) named Pablo Amaringo.
There are three possible ways to know if a shaman is genuine or not:

1. Word of mouth (highly unreliable - people believe in all kinds of false ideas and people such as astrology or John Edward talking to dead people)

2. A personal demonstration of their knowledge/power/radical worldview - has yet to happen.

3. Study 5-10 years with each self-proclaimed shaman in the random hope that the one you train with is "the real deal".

So I do not know how to even make this first step of choosing a "genuine" teacher.

Not only would your sensory data be altered, but your rational mind might find itself overwhelmed by a powerful non-rational, yet cohesive world-view (a religion, if you will).
Then we come to part two (though how we got here I do not know). How to distinguish this new world view from mental illness. One famous ayahuascuero (name escapes me) gave up his studies after many years as he fearded madness was taking him over.

On a personal note, I dedicated EVERYTHING to an ayahuasca vision. It severely damaged me physically, emotionally and financially and basically led me to the brink of self-destruction. Now I am a leetle more discerning about how much faith to put in a drug-induced vision.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2905595 - 07/19/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Rituals will not only shape habits, they also will shape your mind !
It's the retro-thing :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2905711 - 07/19/04 04:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"There are three possible ways to know if a shaman is genuine or not:"

Rest assured that Mr. Ameringo IS a shaman in truest sense of the word. There is NO question that he is not a "dancing around the fire" shaman. MarkostheGnostic, that must have been an interesting moment to meet Mr. Ameringo. He is also a great artist who is truly inspired. I have a print of his. His art for Ott's "Pharmacotheon" was very intriguing. Yes, Swami, it is possible to have shamanistic experience explode your world, but it is not automatic. It must be sought after and desired...and yes it does require some faith. I will not give a description of my experience with this because I don't want to argue about it, or be called a liar, but it can happen. BlueCoyote, that is a very good point. Our daily "rituals" of living are sacred because they define us, I had just not thought of these habits as rituals, but you are correct. They are rituals with practical application.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2905750 - 07/19/04 05:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Rest assured that Mr. Ameringo IS a shaman in truest sense of the word.
Based on your word? There is nothing assuring in that. (This is NOT a personal statement obout you.) People make erroneous decisions regarding spiritual leaders ALL THE TIME. (See: Jim Jones, Koresh, Rajneesh, Muktananda et al).

Yes, Swami, it is possible to have shamanistic experience explode your world, but it is not automatic
The experience did not explode my world (as in a drug paradigm shift), but my faith that it was an authentic arrow pointing a life direction that I should take which turned out to be disastrously wrong.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dancing around a fire [Re: Swami]
    #2905981 - 07/19/04 06:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Based on your word?"

Of course not. Mr. Ameringo's expertise here is recognized globally. BUT, it you want to be picky I can tell you that there is no certification for shaman. Anyone who so desires can aquire the title. Even myself should I choose (which I don't). Many people where I live know me so I could say that I was a "well known" shaman of note with no fear of retribution. It would be total B.S., of course, but I could say it and no one could credibly contridict me. I do know much of the subject, though, and I know of Mr. Ameringo by reputation. He is highly regarded by many academics in various fields, and was trained authentically. It blows my mind that MarkostheGnostic dropped his name so casually. (much like you blew my mind by saying you knew Wozniak whose life I also consider a great influence, unknown to him of course)

"The experience did not explode my world (as in a drug paradigm shift), but my faith that it was an authentic arrow pointing a life direction that I should take which turned out to be disastrously wrong."

I am not discussing a drug paradigm shift. Psychedelics can induce a visionary state of a spiritual nature. For me they pointed the way down the path that I was to procede. I underwent a 3 day vision quest. No food, no drugs, big circle of stones to sit in (and not leave), and no sleep as much as possible. I had a vision of total bodily decontruction and reconstruction. This is a common shamanic theme...death and ressurection. There I did it...flame away...call me what you will. I do think, however, that entheogens, under the right conditions produce a quick, but authentic, spiritual experience. It is no substitute for other visionary practices. Oh yeah, you got me...I guess vision quests are rituals....but I have only done this twice in 6 years.


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