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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Mojo_Risin]
    #2902516 - 07/18/04 01:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I believe that It's actually happened more than once.


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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902582 - 07/18/04 02:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

would be nice to have some interview dialogue from one of'em


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OfflineSoDak_Stranger
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902619 - 07/18/04 02:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ripple said:
Quote:

chinacat72 said:
They just found a old Japanese soldier on an Island a few years back. He was hiding out and didn't know the war was over.




That happens every 10 years or so!





That's freakin' crazy...what islands have they been hidin' out on...i wanna go...


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902653 - 07/18/04 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Where does this information come from?




There are several books I have that touch upon this subject. Here are a two essays that I was able to pull up online real quick that demonstrate the bombings were unnecessary:

http://www.progressive.org/zinn0800.htm

http://www.progressive.org/mpdvhz00.htm

Quote:

The principal justification for obliterating Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that it "saved lives" because otherwise a planned U.S. invasion of Japan would have been necessary, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands. Truman at one point used the figure "a half million lives," and Churchill "a million lives," but these were figures pulled out of the air to calm troubled consciences; even official projections for the number of casualties in an invasion did not go beyond 46,000.

In fact, the bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not forestall an invasion of Japan because no invasion was necessary. The Japanese were on the verge of surrender, and American military leaders knew that. General Eisenhower, briefed by Secretary of War Henry Stimson on the imminent use of the bomb, told him that "Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary."

After the bombing, Admiral William D. Leary, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called the atomic bomb "a barbarous weapon," also noting that: "The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."

The Japanese had begun to move to end the war after the U.S. victory on Okinawa, in May of 1945, in the bloodiest battle of the Pacific War. After the middle of June, six members of the Japanese Supreme War Council authorized Foreign Minister Togo to approach the Soviet Union, which was not at war with Japan, to mediate an end to the war "if possible by September."

Togo sent Ambassador Sato to Moscow to feel out the possibility of a negotiated surrender. On July 13, four days before Truman, Churchill, and Stalin met in Potsdam to prepare for the end of the war (Germany had surrendered two months earlier), Togo sent a telegram to Sato: "Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace. It is his Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war."

The United States knew about that telegram because it had broken the Japanese code early in the war. American officials knew also that the Japanese resistance to unconditional surrender was because they had one condition enormously important to them: the retention of the Emperor as symbolic leader. Former Ambassador to Japan Joseph Grew and others who knew something about Japanese society had suggested that allowing Japan to keep its Emperor would save countless lives by bringing an early end to the war.

Yet Truman would not relent, and the Potsdam conference agreed to insist on "unconditional surrender." This ensured that the bombs would fall on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It seems that the United States government was determined to drop those bombs.

But why? Gar Alperovitz, whose research on that question is unmatched (The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, Knopf, 1995), concluded, based on the papers of Truman, his chief adviser James Byrnes, and others, that the bomb was seen as a diplomatic weapon against the Soviet Union. Byrnes advised Truman that the bomb "could let us dictate the terms of ending the war." The British scientist P.M.S. Blackett, one of Churchill's advisers, wrote after the war that dropping the atomic bomb was "the first major operation of the cold diplomatic war with Russia."

There is also evidence that domestic politics played an important role in the decision. In his recent book, Freedom From Fear: The United States, 1929-1945 (Oxford, 1999), David Kennedy quotes Secretary of State Cordell Hull advising Byrnes, before the Potsdam conference, that "terrible political repercussions would follow in the U.S." if the unconditional surrender principle would be abandoned. The President would be "crucified" if he did that, Byrnes said. Kennedy reports that "Byrnes accordingly repudiated the suggestions of Leahy, McCloy, Grew, and Stimson," all of whom were willing to relax the "unconditional surrender" demand just enough to permit the Japanese their face-saving requirement for ending the war.




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InvisibleOldSpice Happy Birthday!
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902692 - 07/18/04 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When i was a kid my dad allways bought me cool ass books to read
One of the best books i ever read was 'the Battle of Britan
Man the Brits really had a rough time back then


--------------------
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Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2902716 - 07/18/04 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I can pull down many essays and quotes to dispute that viewpoint, but all you have to do is look at history, and the history of the Japanese to realize the fallacy of that view.


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The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!



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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: SoDak_Stranger]
    #2902724 - 07/18/04 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There are thousands of small Atoll's in the South pacific


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902847 - 07/18/04 03:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok, well let's see your articles that show that the Japanese did not seek out a mediated surrender with the help of the Soviet Union by September 1945; that Admiral William D. Leary the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was incorrect in saying The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender; that General Eisenhower, briefed by Secretary of War Henry Stimson on the imminent use of the bomb, was incorrect when he said, Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: shriek]
    #2902868 - 07/18/04 03:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ignorance is not bliss, learn your history




dude, don't blame us. They brainwash kids at a young age here and teach them made-up history lessons from an extremely biased, male, american perspective. World history? What the fuck is that? They only teach US history, and how the US won all the wars, and how we saved the world, and how great we used to be and are. This is what the textbooks are filled with. The average US student will be able to tell you how WE won WWII, but I bet you they wouldn't even be able to locate Norway on a map. Shit, other countries in the american school system are summed up in about two paragraphs.. they did some stuff, and they are poor and not as good as us. And everyone is inferior because americans are the best in the world. This is basically what they teach the kids in school. Lies, lies, and more lies. And if you know the truth, and point it out to the history teacher, and point out that he is spreading propaganda, you get expelled and called a terrorist and put into a mental institution and put on mind bending drugs, and have the government watching you for the next 30 years. So you better learn your history.


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InvisibleOldSpice Happy Birthday!
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Shroomism]
    #2902874 - 07/18/04 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Norway is somewhere up there to the right.... :smirk:


--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: OldSpice]
    #2902877 - 07/18/04 03:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yeah yeah.. its somwhere up there in europeland with the penguins and grass huts and people eating each other


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2902915 - 07/18/04 04:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They may have been on the vurge of defeat ,but they were not ready to surrender. In fact they didn't want to after the second bomb until the emperor made it happen.

Just to note I am very apposed to nuclear weapons.

That "essay" you posted was ridiculoius. Whoever estimated casualty's to be only 46,000 if there was a invasion of Japan is a complete and utter moron. As soon as I saw that number I knew it was propaganda.
For fucks sake we killed 71,000 Japanese in Okinawa, not including our casualty's.
That was one battle. They were dug in deep into the Japanese mainland. If we would have invaded we would have bombed then around the clock and sent in everyone of our troops. Our casualty's would have been very high ,but we would have won after we reduced the country to a burning pile of ruble.

The use of atomic weapons was horrific. In fact that whole era was historys darkest hour. Thats why I think it's ironic that LSD was discovered during WW2.
Gas Chambers, Death camps, atomic bombs and millions and millions of lives lost.

Still it doesn't take someone from the Rand corporation to figure out that getting Japan to surrender without invading it saved lives. Especially on our side.

I'm not justifying the use of the bomb here. But as someone said lets call a shovel a shovel.


--------------------
Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2903005 - 07/18/04 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

They may have been on the vurge of defeat ,but they were not ready to surrender.




So, are you saying that Leary, Stimson, and General Eisenhower were wrong?

Quote:

They were dug in deep into the Japanese mainland. If we would have invaded we would have bombed then around the clock and sent in everyone of our troops.




Japan was defeated before the bombings. B-29 bombers from Guam, Saipan, and Tinian were systematically and utterly destroying the industrial cities of Japan. The US Navy and the Army Air Forces had cut off Japan?s supply lines. Following these campaigns and the Japan's devastation at Okinawa, the country was starved, weakened, contained, and blockaded.

To suggest that using the bombs saved a million US lives is inaccurate. Kai Bird stated in the New York Times: "No scholar of the war has ever found archival evidence to substantiate claims that Truman expected anything close to a million casualties, or even that such large numbers were conceivable."

I think a continuous, unrelentless post-Okinawa strategy would have seen Japan surrender in the later months of 1945 especially with the assistance of the Soviet Union. Neither land invasion nor atomic warefare were entirely necessary as the belief goes. And in the case of such disgusting weapons, the use of them must be for very damn good reasons - the invasion of the US mainland for example.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2903061 - 07/18/04 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They were dug in and ready to fight to the bitter end.
After Pearl Harbor the American people were not going to except anything but an unconditional surrender. Had Japan been so ready to give up they would have gave it to us. Americans were not going to sit around and embargo them to their knees. We had fought all the way through the Islands in the Pacific and were not going to stop. Right or wrong we wanted their unconditional surrender and we wanted it right fucking now not mediated by the Russians or any other way.
If they wanted to save face they had lost that right at Pearl Harbor(in the american peoples minds).

> so your saying that Leary, Stimson, and General Eisenhower were wrong.
I'm saying I don't buy that "essay" at all.
As a anti Nuclear weapons activist for two decades I have run into every piece of anti nuclear propaganda available. I have told my friends that run these organizations that to be respected and trusted don't get fanatical with our claims.
I have yet to see a reputable report that would support that essay.
Especially saying the Russians were going to help peacefuly end the war. From my studys if I remember correctly, Stalin had commited to Truman that he would help with the Invasion of Japan.

Again we wanted Japans unconditional surrender and we wanted it now. An Invasion of Japan would have been more costly especially for us(who we were concerned about).

Once agian I do not condone the use of atomic weapons, even the ones used in Japan. If I was in charge I would have sought a more diplomatic way. Then agian i'm a bleeding heart pacifist. My way would have been very unpopular in those days.

It was a different time and a different state of mind. The world was at war and the last conquer of that "evil" was Japan's unconditional surrender. The Japanese were seen as a fanatical enemy that would never surrender. How many US pilots have you ever heard of flying their planes into Japanese ships to sink them?


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Some climb
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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2903094 - 07/18/04 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your talking about a "negotiated surrender"

That was never going to happen!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Offlined33p
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2903548 - 07/18/04 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

People whine about the atomic bombs although napalm killed many times more japs on the mainland. Its silly.

Also Bio that article is a piece of shit. Why must you pull the wool over eyes in front of such a case. The commanders of the Japanese military attempted a coo to stop the emperor from surrendering. Only after it failed could the Emperor report his surrender.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: d33p]
    #2903600 - 07/18/04 09:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The commanders of the Japanese military attempted a coo to stop the emperor from surrendering.




This is very true. They were ready to fight to the bitter end. They were preparing for a Invasion.
It would of been a complete slaughter for many people. I don't think the 500,000 figure is that far off. A ton of US, and Russian soldiers would have been killed along with hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers. Then you have to factor in the Japanese civilian casualty's.

Whoever came up with that casualty estimate(46,000) in that essay is one of two things.
1. A propagandist trying to skew reality for their agenda.
2. A complete and utter fucking moron.

46,000 yeah right. Mabye on the first day.


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Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2903629 - 07/18/04 09:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

didn't the french help us gain independence from england by sending their armada over and helping us corner the brits?

oh and re: ww2 didn't the japanese attack the mainland, by sending bombs over on hot air ballons and killed a family on picnic somewhere in the pnw?

not trying to argue so much as learn, it's been a while since i had any history classes :stoned:


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: John]
    #2903632 - 07/18/04 09:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and if we can't call them french fries and have to say freedom fries why don't we tear down the statue of liberity similar to a highschool girl burning pics of her ex-boyfriend? i really don't get the whole hatred of the french shit we all they did was disagree with us violating international policy and starting an unjust war :rolleyes:

i know this turned more into a ww2 post but the french-bashing (or at least i interpeted it that way) earlier stuck out to me.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: John]
    #2903635 - 07/18/04 09:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

John said:
didn't the french help us gain independence from england by sending their armada over and helping us corner the brits?



Yes they did. They were late, but arived in time to help us hand General Cornwallis his ass on a platter to end the revolutionary war.

Quote:

oh and re: ww2 didn't the japanese attack the mainland, by sending bombs over on hot air ballons and killed a family on picnic somewhere in the pnw?





I think they tried to send quite a few of those ballons over. Around 9000 I believe.
This also happened in 1945. Goes to show how ready they were to surrender.


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Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!


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