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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902188 - 07/18/04 01:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

At least Pearl Harbor was a military installation. I'm sure there were some civilians there, but compare the US's civilians casualities to the countries on the front lines and you'll see a huge and relevant disparity.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902193 - 07/18/04 01:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes i hope no one misunderstands me on that, no one in europe is ungrateful for that , at least i never heard one word of ungratefulnes to what america did to help. but i just wanted to keep things in perspective and call a shovel a shovel.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902235 - 07/18/04 01:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

As for the French giving up from my studys that not true. Faced with the german invasion they had little chance.





yeah france had it alot much worse than up here. i will agree with you on that.

the free world won so we all are winners here either you are american french or german.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: shriek]
    #2902255 - 07/18/04 01:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



the free world won so we all are winners here either you are american french or german.




I agree. As a pacifist I'm apossed to war in general, but WW2 was a noble cause for all Allied forces because they were facing a Evil force.

To bad the US didn't remain noble in it's wars. Since WW2 we have lost more troops( 135,000(Korea, Vietnam,Iraq) and climbing each day) in lest then just wars.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902272 - 07/18/04 01:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Had they gone un-checked the Japanese would have completed the take over of China and Burma. With their holdings in the South Pacific and the conquests in South East Asia that would have inevitably come soon after, they would have control of almost unlimited natural resources. The plan was for them to start a second front against Russia and drain off troops that were being used to fight the Germans.

Had the US not entered the war things would have been very different.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902290 - 07/18/04 02:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I know I might sound anti american from time to time (someone recently pointed that out for me) but i am really not. I have lots of american frieds, my little brother lives in NYC and I drive a 67 Mustang hardtop :smile: but its the war on terror and whats going on that makes me incredible mad because is meaningless. 911 was terrible, things like that should not happend in a free world, same with what happened in spain. and many other places. but it seems like its declearde war again a whole group of peaople, an entire religion. Middle East has a culture with greatnes few cultures can compare with,. thousands of thousands of years back, and why do i have to show id to go on the 400 year old harbour here where my grandfathers have worked on up in the arctics in norway because of 911? there is no logic in the wars and world today and its just sad.


Edited by shriek (07/18/04 02:09 PM)


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902297 - 07/18/04 02:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. Had the japanese not been stopped and been able to help the Nazi's in Europe the world would be a very, very different place.

Their dumbest mistake was Pearl Harbor which drew us into the war.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: shriek]
    #2902321 - 07/18/04 02:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your preachin to the choir my brother. I'm not anti-amarican ,but I fucking hate our current goverment . I love the country's founding ideals. Unfortunatly we have swayed a great deal from the vision our forefathers had for this nation.

If alive today I imagine Thomas Jefferson and Goerge Washington would have G. W. Bush taken out back out the white house and beaten senseless.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902324 - 07/18/04 02:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes when you realize that just six months after Pearl Harbor the US won a major battle at Midway, which was the turning point in the battle of the Pacific. After that Point we never again lost a major battle in that theater of war.

Pearl Harbor may have been the greatest military mistake of the century, the attack on the 1920's vintage Battleships did nothing to effect the outcome of the war. The Japanese would have done better had they attacked oil storage facilities baring the absence of our Flattops in Pearl.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902350 - 07/18/04 02:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Had the US not entered the war things would have been very different.




Agreed. I think this is true. I think WWII was one of the few instances of war being necessary and just.

However, I I think the atomic bombing of Japan was unnecessary if you consider the fact Imperial Japan was looking to surrender anyways. The second bombing was certainly unnecessary; it seems as though the second bomb was just a testing of the technology.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Vvellum]
    #2902372 - 07/18/04 02:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Imperial Japan was looking to surrender anyways"

Where does this information come from?
I've read over 100 books and thousands of articles about the pacific war and I believe that an invasion of the main land would have been the only way to win the war had the bomb not been developed.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902375 - 07/18/04 02:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's cool to see another Deadhead(especially you) that is a WW2 enthusiest.
Like I said I hate war ,but WW2 was a major point in human history.
We really tried to stay neutral till we were attacked.
I have probably a hundred documentorys on WW2. It facinates me.
I just got done watching the 6 hour series "the battle of Britian". Must say I was amazed at the will of the English spirit ,especially the RAF.

People think the Japanese on Pearl harbor was a master plan pulled out grracefully. To bad they missed our Carriers and pissed us off. They slit their own throat.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902398 - 07/18/04 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. They were waiting for us to invade. Look at the hundreds of thousand of death just invading the surrounding islands. invading the mainland would have been a bloodbath.

I want to state I am adamatly agianst atomic weapons.

Had we not used the bomb casulties would have been way, way higher on both sides.

Also after hiroshima the Japanese were not willing to surrender. They had the chance and refused. They basically killed their own citizens in Nagasaki.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902422 - 07/18/04 02:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Without a doubt, the estimates were 500,000 additional American Casualties in an attack on the mainland.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902433 - 07/18/04 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Plus I think we would have killled 10 times as many Japanese with an invasion then we did with the bomb.

It was a sad ,sad deal all the way around. We didn't start it though.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902434 - 07/18/04 02:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

never in history have a japanese soldier been easy to get to surrender. they have a diffrent view on things there


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: shriek]
    #2902440 - 07/18/04 02:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They just found a old Japanese soldier on an Island a few years back. He was hiding out and didn't know the war was over.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902453 - 07/18/04 02:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

chinacat72 said:
It's cool to see another Deadhead(especially you) that is a WW2 enthusiest.





Funny  :thumbup: Yes I love the study of ww2! I started reading about the conflict as a teen and never stopped.

I actually consider myself a bit of an amateur historian when it comes to naval battles in the Pacific (my particular area of study). A great little book about carrier war in the Pacific that does not go into too much detail is "Titans Of The Seas" by James and William Belote.

If you want a more detailed account I would recommend Samuel Elliot Morrison's 15 volume account of the Pacific War as the Official Naval Historian for the conflict.


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InvisibleRipple
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: chinacat72]
    #2902458 - 07/18/04 02:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

chinacat72 said:
They just found a old Japanese soldier on an Island a few years back. He was hiding out and didn't know the war was over.




That happens every 10 years or so!


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OfflineMojo_Risin
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Re: who camed and saved your ass in WW2 [Re: Ripple]
    #2902503 - 07/18/04 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

get out of here, that can't be true!

or can it?


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