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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Being Pragmatic
    #2901176 - 07/18/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Should a belief be practical? Is the impact it has on our lives a judgement on the worth of the belief? Does the end justify the means regarding beliefs on a personal level? Are our religious beliefs intended to increase the quality of our lives?


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OfflineBlue_Apocalypse
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901212 - 07/18/04 12:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I have a very firm opinion that all religious and spiritual beliefs should be able to have a notable practical effect in everyday life. For example, i dont even bother considering life after death in my spiritual beliefs (besides metaphorically) because it would have no impact in this life whatsoever when it comes down to it. People argue that it removes the fear of death from our lives but once you realize that, it no longer works. It can only work if we are unaware of the effect and just blindly believe, and i am not capable of that.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Blue_Apocalypse]
    #2901221 - 07/18/04 01:02 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Fear of death is not an issue as I was born with a terminal condition that I have had many years to adjust to. It is called life. I agree, if a belief does not have a direct impact on your life then it is bogus. Life after death is one of those ideas that are irrelevant to our daily existance. I also believe that a belief in a God or spirits can have a direct impact on one's life, and thus, are practical beliefs.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901224 - 07/18/04 01:03 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The power of belief itself is amazing.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: MAGnum]
    #2901231 - 07/18/04 01:06 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. Swami is addressing that issue on the Solar Temple thread as well, but in a different, but no less valid, way.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: MAGnum]
    #2901339 - 07/18/04 01:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The power of belief itself is amazing.

Your statement has no weight behind it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Swami]
    #2901346 - 07/18/04 02:00 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There is plenty of weight behind the placebo effect


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: MAGnum]
    #2901371 - 07/18/04 02:11 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That is a system acting upon itself. There is no relevance to a system acting upon another system.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlue_Apocalypse
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Swami]
    #2901412 - 07/18/04 02:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

That is a system acting upon itself. There is no relevance to a system acting upon another system.





Sure there is. It just depends on how the systems interact. If you are talking about some magical force or something of that nature, then of course there is no way to prove it. However, surley you can envision someone's belief's and state of mind affecting their actions in the material world. By those means, the belief is indirectly having an effect on "objective" reality.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901419 - 07/18/04 02:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

great questions here!!!

"Should a belief be practical?"

of course, but I think on an individual basis. if it isn't practical to you, why would you believe it?  now for others I'm not so sure. what may be practical to you may not be practical for me.  who would I be to say what you view of practical is wrong?

"Is the impact it has on our lives a judgement on the worth of the belief?"

yes, but again, only for you.  I can't argue against personal belief system, but a belief system that calims it's for the entire 6 billion people on this planet seems impractical at best.


"Does the end justify the means regarding beliefs on a personal level?"

not sure what you are implying here.  what end do you mean? is this a general end, or is it more of what a persom gets accomplished when a belief is taken in? 

like a person could have no feelings of self worth. let's just say that christianity could help realize that person's self worth. in this case, where is the justification needed?  Am I saying the person has to become christian?  no.  what I am saying though that one can read the bible, reject jesus dying for our sins, but at the same time if they get the idea that we should love each other as equals (lets just say :wink:) then sure the end could justify the means.  hehe I hope I don't come off as confusing here

"Are our religious beliefs intended to increase the quality of our lives? "

that one is up for debate. 
obviously lots of religions are in it for the money. 

lots of them are in it for the control of ideas

lots of them are in it to keep people suppressed. 

conversly:

lots of them teach to love each other

lots of them teach to love yourself

lots of them teach to help others out in need

lots of them teach compassion


so where would one draw the line?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Blue_Apocalypse]
    #2901429 - 07/18/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If you are talking about some magical force or something of that nature, then of course there is no way to prove it.
If it were real, it would be VERY EASY to prove it.

However, surley you can envision someone's belief's and state of mind affecting their actions in the material world.
Yes, hence the War on Iraq.

Gee, I wonder how I ever accomplish anything without unsubstantiated beliefs...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Swami]
    #2901459 - 07/18/04 02:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"If you are talking about some magical force or something of that nature, then of course there is no way to prove it."

What if said magical force, whether real or percieved (no difference here really though) wrought a definite change in one's life. Would that not substantiate it to the individual and provide individual proof?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901485 - 07/18/04 02:49 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What if said magical force, whether real or percieved (no difference here really though)...
Huge difference, really!

...wrought a definite change in one's life.
I am "guessing" that is a question. Depends on whether or not said conditions were self-imposed and the one stopped doing the imposing or if physical action or inaction was enough to affect change WITHOUT THE ADDITION fo some magical influence.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901486 - 07/18/04 02:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

but you are asking does the validity of a belief system directly correlate to practicality.

if it is useful is it therefore true??

I'll say no.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Edited by kaiowas (07/18/04 03:00 AM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: kaiowas]
    #2901511 - 07/18/04 03:01 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"but you are asking does the validity of a belief system directly correlate to practicality.
if it is useful is it therefore true?? "

Yes, on an individual level. Prove otherwise.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Swami]
    #2901517 - 07/18/04 03:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"What if said magical force, whether real or percieved (no difference here really though)...
Huge difference, really!"

Not if it acts as though it is real by fulfilling a practical purpose.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901542 - 07/18/04 03:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

one thing can seem useful today and tomorrow seem the opposite.

we are talking about usefulness in what way? I mean, can a person see something useful without the ego? as you said, a person can delude themself. we does one draw the line

ex: I could be smoking mj. it could broaden my horizons a little and make me think different regarding my state of being and on existence as a whole. life seems beautiful in a way I couldn't image. in this way it is useful, and i guess I could infer the marijuana is good. But I could use marijuana a lot, too much. I could lose my job over it. if i do, it then turns into bad, even though before it seemed useful.

I say everything has the ability to be useful and not useful. it's how it's used. the "how" question is what shows if something is useful or not.

this applies to the belief systems. how it is used determines it's purpose. belief system have both positive and negative aspects to them, and thus are both useful and not useful.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: kaiowas]
    #2901551 - 07/18/04 03:32 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

PRACTICAL usefulness in real life is what I am discussing. If something loses its usefulness you discard it, of course...like tools. The "how" all depends on the individual.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2901566 - 07/18/04 04:01 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

ok and what I am saying is that the definition of useful changes as the situation and the person changes.

so the idea itself is neither useful or not, it's the person

if you like math (algebra 2) this clearly shows what I am trying to talk about.

x is the variable-in this case it will be the idea (what we are analyzing)

f(x) is the funtion of x, or the equation that the variable is in. this is you, as it is the idea put into a function. the funciton is how you deal with it.

say x is some value, I'll say 2

f(2)=+# means the idea has a positive effect

f(2)=-# means the idea has a negative effect.

remember, you are the function, what you do is different as time goes and your equation could change (how you handled the idea)

so what I am saying is it isn't x that depends on usefulness, it's the f(x) how you deal with the idea that is where truth would come in, and in this case, we all experience our own personal truths.


but even if you wanted to disregard all of this...usefulness could also be an ego thing. one idea you have could help you a lot, but then you'd also might be stepping on the toes of others. so in this case what is useful to you isn't useful to other people. so how could you use this usefulness=truth method here?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Being Pragmatic [Re: kaiowas]
    #2901734 - 07/18/04 06:40 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Nice algebra...I thought that was gonna end in tears but thankfully it didn't and you managed to show how a belief cannot be good in itself.

I don't think usefulness of a belief can ever prove or even give evidence for its truth.

For example, if I believe that regular exercise will turn me into spiderman, I will get physically fitter regardless of the truth of this belief.

In regard to metaphysical beliefs, Most of them give people a sense of well-being or greater purpose to their life, which is no bad thing, but if someone's beliefs didn't have this effect, they still might be true. So I would say a belief doesn't have to be useful to be right, and doesn't have to be right to be useful. Theyare unrelated properties, in my opinion.


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