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InvisibleCJay
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Blair - the man, the music
    #2896219 - 07/16/04 09:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

He can dance, but he can't face the music. And as for troubles ahead -- oh yeh!

Let's travel back thru time:

"We expected, I expected to find actual usable, chemical or biological weapons after we entered Iraq. But I have to accept, as the months have passed, it seems increasingly clear that at the time of invasion, Saddam did not have stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons ready to deploy."
(Tony Blair 14/07/04)

?I'm confident that when the Iraq Survey Group has done its work we will find what's happened to those weapons because he had them."
(tony Blair 16/12/03)

"I don't concede it at all that the intelligence at the time was wrong. I have absolutely no doubt at all that we will find evidence of weapons of mass destruction programmes."
(Tony Blair 08/07/03)

"There are literally thousands of sites. As I was told in Iraq, information is coming in the entire time, but it is only now that the Iraq survey group has been put together that a dedicated team of people, which includes former UN inspectors, scientists and experts, will be able to go in and do the job properly.
As I have said throughout, I have no doubt that they will find the clearest possible evidence of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction."
(Tony Blair 04/06/03)


Blair needs to resign, any honourable man in his position who has cocked up (or should I say talked sh*t) that much would do so. That is what they call responsibility. (Actually a starring role in the dock at the Hague would be most appropriate...)
Passing the buck is however his greatest skill, followed by acting.

And that other funky-fool Bush does it just as well too, except without the oratory flair. Thankfully intelligence isn't a prerequisite to being president. Ok so he's not so dumb, he's crafty as hell, or at least his advisors are. How else can you get away with so much.

An incredible pair....an incredible show.

Muppets out there take note - that hand up your ass must be itching you a bit by now?

Where's my popcorn?


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: CJay]
    #2896243 - 07/16/04 09:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It was a great show and I can't wait for the sequal.  Hopefully all the original actors will be back to take their starring roles. :wink:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: CJay]
    #2896479 - 07/16/04 11:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thousands of people killed and these two dipshits are more concerned with covering their backs.


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InvisibleSteinM
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: Xlea321]
    #2896508 - 07/16/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I remember when terrorist held their press conferences and were backpedalling their way out of their acts and killing sprees.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: Stein]
    #2896658 - 07/16/04 01:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In making the initial case for war:

"They put exclamation marks where there had been question marks and I think that is hyping, a spin, that leads the public to the wrong conclusions."

Hans Blix

- I would love to think Blair and Bush are simply incompetent to a degree unachievable by most humans. But alas I cannot shake the feeling they are manipulative, machivellian, and downright dastardly. Call me a cynic if you must, but call me a justified cynic at least.

Either way, neither are fit to lead nations of millions....except to a disasterous outcome.

"Yet again, it was about to be "the prime minister's worst week so far". Yet again, at the end of it, Tony Blair is not only still standing; he seems as cheerily self-confident as ever.....unexpected events permitting, he will reshuffle his government and, on holiday, lie back in the sand with a quiet smile on his face.

His week from hell? It wasn't even a close run thing."
(Andrew Marr - BBC Political Editor)

Blair is amazing - a marvel


Edited by CJay (07/16/04 01:00 PM)


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: CJay]
    #2899809 - 07/17/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Blair is a slimy little bastard, but without Bush we wouldn't have gone to war, and Blair would certainly be more popular than he currently is. Personally, I think Blair is better than Major was or Howard would be. Lets not forget how bad the Tories really are, with their hobby of union-bashing and unashamed denial of the need for redistribution of income.

Labour could have been good, indeed it was good until they jumped on the privatisation bandwagon. Labour is/was supposed to be slightly left of centre. Anyone who claims they still are needs a frontal lobotomy.

If Blair stepped down, Brown would obviously replace him, and I have no idea if he would be better.

To be honest, I don't really believe that any prime minister/president holds as much power as people think. Blair was but a leaf on the tide of the last decade of world politics (lets face it, Saddam was gonna get it anyway).

I say count our blessings. At least he's not Bush.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2900252 - 07/17/04 05:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lets not forget how bad the Tories really are, with their hobby of union-bashing and unashamed denial of the need for redistribution of income.




That kind of thought, so prevelant in your continent, is why Europe is and will remain an Economic shithole.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2900556 - 07/17/04 08:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

And your kind of thought is why the US is and will remain in the pockets of big business.

Heh. Only joking, but do you really not see a need to redistricute wealth?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2900597 - 07/17/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Only joking, but do you really not see a need to redistricute wealth?



I see very little need for government to do anything outside of securing the natural rights of its citizens. Redistributing wealth is not one of those legitimate functions and is, on top of that, grossly immoral.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2901741 - 07/18/04 06:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I would say it is grossly immoral, given the state of poverty in some parts of the world, and indeed some parts of my country and yours, to leave the rich and the poor to their own devices.

In theory, I agree that the government interferes in a lot of issues in which it should have no say. However, I think that since governments did a lot to create the conditions under which this inequality thrives, it has a duty to try and close the gap some.

If we had a system that was fair, ie any two people in a country have a reasonably equal chance of having a good quality of life, then yes, the government should stop there and do nothing but, as you say, secure the rights of its citizens. I don't think that will be for a while, though. As it stands, I don't think the free market can cater for all it's negative effects.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2901953 - 07/18/04 11:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I would say it is grossly immoral, given the state of poverty in some parts of the world, and indeed some parts of my country and yours, to leave the rich and the poor to their own devices.




And there in a nutshell is the difference between the Collectivist mentality and the Capitalist one.

The Capitalist believes it is immoral (unethical, bad, incorrect, the wrong thing to do) to initiate force against peaceful individuals. The Collectivist believes it is immoral not to. The Collectivist justification? Some people have more than some other people. This in and of itself is seen as a problem requiring a solution. The Collectivist solution? Seize the "extra" from whoever has it and give it to whoever doesn't.

pinky


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: Phred]
    #2901996 - 07/18/04 11:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, that's the big divider.

I think initiation of force is a bit of a strong term for taxation. I do think the rich have a moral duty to help the poor. I think it is unfair that a lot of people are set up for life just for being born into a rich family, and some people don't stand a chance because they are born in some third world country. I also think that if the disparity gets too great then civil war is inevitable.

I also think that many business practises should count as "initiation of force", such as patenting AIDS drugs.

I suppose it stems from different premises. One is a belief in the right of the individual to do whatever they want without initiating force against another, the other is a belief that everyone deserves an equal chance in life. These premises both look like "good" things, but ultimately lead to contradiction if both are followed.

Do you agree with this characterization?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2902015 - 07/18/04 11:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So you would prefer that there be no AIDS drugs at all?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2902023 - 07/18/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The vast majority of people with AIDS have no way of paying for the overpriced drugs which cost jack shit to make. No-one should own the rights to millions of people's lives. In my opinion. That was a bit of a silly question. No offence meant.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2902083 - 07/18/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Actually the question was quite reasonable. Your response, and your belief that people MUST do things out of the goodness of their hearts, was the foolish bit.

Feel free to donate all the time and money you wish, just don't ask the government to steal from me to finance your dream.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2902105 - 07/18/04 12:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It cost millions upon millions of dollars to develop the AIDS drugs. If there was no chance to recoup that cost and make a profit there would be no incentive to develop them. Further, when these corporations developed these drugs there was no guarantee that they would ever see one penny of revenue. Some development streams end nowhere. The successful ones have to pay for the failed ones as well. Grow up. Respectfully, I appreciate your frustration that the world is not perfect, but yours is not the path to any kind of improvement. At all.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2902195 - 07/18/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Respectfully, I feel the same. I suppose some points of view can never be reconciled.

I interpreted your question as a sort of put down, sorry if I got that wrong.

The drugs companies have recouped their costs many times over. If it was up to me, the government would be the one to control the making and price of drugs. Some development streams do end nowhere, but drugs companies typically make profits of 600%, which when it comes to life saving drugs is pretty excessive, in my opinion.

When you say mine is not the path to any kind of improvement, would you share your views on what the improved world would look like?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2902347 - 07/18/04 02:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The drugs companies have recouped their costs many times over.



Sigh. Very common fallacy. SOME drug companies have recouped their costs many times over, some meaning not all. The part of this equation that might be hard to see, is that those companies that haven't recouped their costs no longer exist(whether through acquisition by a more profitable company or outright bankruptcy).

Quote:

If it was up to me, the government would be the one to control the making and price of drugs.



That would truly be a disaster. When government takes control of something, ALL incentive is lost for that something to succeed. The chance of making a profit on investments is what drives companies to invest millions(and billions...) into the research of new drugs. A chemist working towards the creation of a new AIDS drug will work his ass off with the knowledge that if he and his coworkers don't produce after a given time, there funding will be cut. A chemist working directly for the government, however, can cut corners and generally half-ass(at best) his way through the day with the knowledge that whether he produces or not, he'll be payed.

Quote:

Some development streams do end nowhere, but drugs companies typically make profits of 600%



Are you SURE it's typical for drug companies to make profits of 600%? Are you SURE the companies that make profits of 600% aren't the small number of companies that met success as opposed to the potential majority that didn't?

Quote:

which when it comes to life saving drugs is pretty excessive, in my opinion.




If you come to power and decree that the profit return on life-saving drugs may be no more than X%, I ASSURE you that the healthcare manufacturers, with their research departments, will leave your country in droves. Profit is incentive and incentive is what gets things done.

Quote:

When you say mine is not the path to any kind of improvement, would you share your views on what the improved world would look like?



True capitalism raises the standard of living for ALL the citizens of a nation. Statists have such a problem with the rich getting richer that they completely ignore the fact that the poor are also getting richer, though they are not rich. Statists also love to throw around statistics that show how poor the bottom quartile or quintile of people are, with total disregard to the fact that people VERY RARELY stay in a bottom quartile or quintile throughout their lives, and in fact, a good many people who are in that bottom portion of the chart at one point of their lives, are in the top portion at some other point. Socialism doesn't work...at all. The last century has proven that. The sooner people accept that government cannot fix problems, only exacerbate them, the better off humanity as a whole will be.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2902832 - 07/18/04 04:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

where in the world did you get the impression that drug company's profit margin is 600%. That's insane. Maybe for botox.

My wish list is fairly long. At the top, god would be relegated to a quaint, at best, concept of the past. Government would stay out of business altogether except to prosecute fraud and to ensure a minimum amount of non-collusive competitiveness. There would be no subsidies to prop up failures. Fraud would be prosecuted as theft and theft would be prosecuted and punished in terms of the amount of the theft. Violent crimes would be severely punished. "victimless crimes" would not be punished at all (see end of god corollary). There would be a slightly graduated scale of taxation, less so than now, but there would be no deductions for anything other than direct business expenses (e.g. cost of materials, not cost of lunch or golf outings). Capital gains would not be a tax category, income is income. No mortgage deduction, which screws renters, no child deduction which screws the childless, no charity deductions, which screw all taxpayers who can't afford to make charitable contributions and makes everyone contribute to the donor's cause. Social Security and medicare will be gone and employers will be relieved of the responsibility to collect taxes for the government. Inheritance would be taxed at, oh say, 33% in excess of 100 times the average annual earnings of the populace, on the premise that the rich have, more than others benefited from the protection of the government and might be reasonably expected to give a bit more back (I'm gonna guess that this is currently somewhere around the 5 million dollar range). There would be no taxes on corporations except property taxes and a small tax for enforcement, say 1-2% on gross revenue (see removal of capital gains as a category). Birth control would be encouraged.

That's enough for now. There will always be a top 5% and a bottom 5%. A bell curve is a bell curve and it's called "normal" distribution for a reason. Even if you have a chance to escape the bottom, which you do, it will be because you climbed past someone else.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Blair - the man, the music [Re: deafpanda]
    #2903292 - 07/18/04 08:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

deafpanda writes:

I think initiation of force is a bit of a strong term for taxation.

You do? Try this experiment -- refuse to pay them. When the government comes to get you, refuse to go with them. Then you can tell us what term best suits the methods the government used on you.

I do think the rich have a moral duty to help the poor.

Being forced against your will to do the "moral" thing isn't a demonstration of morality on the part of the one being forced.

I think it is unfair that a lot of people are set up for life just for being born into a rich family...

So they therefore have less rights than others? It is okay to initiate force against them because (through no fault of their own) they were born a Rockefeller?

...and some people don't stand a chance because they are born in some third world country.

Same comment as above. The ones born in the US should be forcibly deported to Niger?

I also think that many business practises should count as "initiation of force", such as patenting AIDS drugs.

Protecting your property isn't initiating force.

I suppose it stems from different premises. One is a belief in the right of the individual to do whatever they want without initiating force against another, the other is a belief that everyone deserves an equal chance in life.

The problem is that the second premise contradicts the facts of reality. The laws of nature are such that not all individuals (of any species) have an equal chance of survival.

These premises both look like "good" things...

Actually, the second one doesn't look "good" at all. It looks like evasion of fact.

.... but ultimately lead to contradiction if both are followed.

What contradictions will be "lead to" if the first premise is followed?

Do you agree with this characterization?

Nope.

pinky


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