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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2882746 - 07/12/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"are you saying that i exist only in the reality created by your mind?"

no, not exactly. What im actually saying is that the existance of dreams, and particularly the ability of the mind to create entire people and personalities in the dream, show that that is a real POSSIBILITY. I also proposed a few others, just for pontificating on, but i dont claim to know the answers.

Thanks alot for posting that thing on solipilism (sic) it was really interesting, and as the post itself said, not falsifiable, or disprovable. In many ways it is the most believable paradigm ive heard, and i plan to do more studying on it. However, as in any philosophy this can be interpreted in a few different ways, some of which will no doubt lead to wrong or harmfull conclusions. The belief in your own godhood is both the most true and the most false thing you could believe.

"do you mean to say that senses are non operative during sleep?"
in many ways, yes. The theory that external sensory stimulus is recieved and interpreted by the brain to form dreams has been tested and disproved in a labratory setting. (the guy tried flashing lights in dreamers eyes, touching skin, sounding bells and buzzers etc and then compared the results to a control group who were not interfered with and staayed in a silenced room. No noticeable differances in the nature of the dreams were observed)

Although rarely an outside sound or light can make an appearance in the dream, they do not account for the vast majority of dreams or dream sensations, and most outside sensations do not intrude into the dream at all. Again, i have no doubt you will come back with a "source and link Please" and im gonna say screw it. I studied this in my psychology class, i don't have the source on hand, nor do i think its my reponsibilty to find it for you, it would probably be just as easy for you to find it on google or something than it would be for me to dig it up, but hey if you really think i made it up myself than... well that hurts swami.

( i realize im responding to a number of things you havent actually said yet, forgive my presumption)

As for your "swami sensory sleep test" or whatever, i assume you would mean that by whacking me with stuff you could wake me up or something, and thats probably true, but i never argued that a person couldn't be woken from sleep, or couldnt return to the waking conciousness, but rather i was simply saying that dreams are internally created and not reliant on sensation. After all your eyes are closed, arent they? thats pretty much the definition of non operative vision.

On that note, at my cabin one time we were watching a movie and my friend fell asleep, so in the fine tradition we decided to fuck with him. First i wanted to see if i could influence his dreams by saying things like 'your falling out of a plane' or 'your gonna get hit by a train' over and over in his ear.

This didnt get any noticeable response so i started shouting it. Still nothing. Throughout the next 2 hours we poked him, prodded him, screamed in his ears, roughly grabbed his cheeks, pushed him out of his bed, blew marijuana and tabacco smoke in his face, balanced a beer can on his head and a cigar in his mouth, lifted and dropped his eyelids, rubbed cocaine on his gums, and burned him with a lighter (not badly)

the results? not even the slightest stir, and when we asked him the next day none of his dreams indicated any relation to our sensory tamperings.

Damn funny shit to.

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: trendal]
    #2882984 - 07/12/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
My first full "breakthrough" experience with Salvia D convinced me of the power of creation inherent in the human brain. Yes...my mind "could" be creating reality, but I tend to think it isn't and that what comes in through my sensory apparatus is "real" in some exeternal form.

Below is a brief summary of my thoughts on "reality" that I wrote a year or so ago:

---

Hmm, well here's my take on the whole concept of "reality".

What is "Reality"? I see a few possibilities:

1) It is entirely external to the Self,
2) It is entirely internal to the Self,
3) It is a mixture of the two.

Now let's cover each option on its own.

If Reality is something that is entirely "out there", meaning external to human consciousness, then all we can know about Reality is what we perceive through our sensory apparatus. It may be that we do not perceive 100% of this external reality, and as such do not have a complete picture of what Reality really is. I will say that I find this option to be the second most likely of the three.

If Reality is entirely internal to human consciousness, meaning entirely created within the mind, then a great many things should be possible which do not appear to be. Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds. Psychic phenomena is easily explained in this case as a result of the individual creation of Reality. Mass-consciousness would probably be a necessity, again for us to all experience the general same Reality. Unless, of course, I am the only being in existence and you are all just figments of my imagination! I find this option to be the least likely of the three.




supose mass consciousness exist on a level we do not normall percieve. like the sub/unconsciouss? and we all collectivly participate in the creation of a generally acceptable world.
Quote:


Finally, a mix of the previous two options. This is what I think is most likely. There is something "out there" which is concrete, and I will call that "physical Reality". This is the realm of Science, and is what is normally sensed by our five main senses (touch, taste, sound, vision, hearing). There is also an internal aspect which I will call "human Reality". This aspect is added, by some part of the brain, after sensory input. For instance, when I look at a chair I do not see a collection of geometric shapes and colours...I see a chair. I also recognize the chair as a separate object (Self, lets say) which is not connected to its surroundings. In physical Reality this is not necessarily the case...as the only thing I am using to separate the chair from the room is the fact that the air around it is transparent to the narrow band of EM radiation my eyes are sensitive to. So the concept of Self and separateness is added to my sensory input after sensory reception. Also added is the concept of Meaning which we humans put so much thought into.

I should also like to point out that in this case there still exists the possibility (I would say it is a definate) that we are not sensing 100% of physical Reality. Actually, on further thought, there is no way we can consider ourselves to be receiving 100% of physical reality. This has been well proven by the physical sciences; as I stated earlier our eyes are only receptive to a very narrow band of the EM force. There is much more "out there" than we are presently aware of.




i like ur third explantion .. was interesting.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: BleaK]
    #2883233 - 07/12/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"supose mass consciousness exist on a level we do not normall percieve. like the sub/unconsciouss? and we all collectivly participate in the creation of a generally acceptable world."

Righteous
:thumbup:

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2884636 - 07/13/04 12:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"and dreams are the evidence of that. Every night when we fall asleep we dream. Those dreams involve all five senses, they contain unique people and characters, scenery, animals, adventures, threats, lessons and even their own unique kinds of physical laws."

not neccessarily..
my dreams really only involve, at most, 3 senses at a time.. and occasionally, it's just visual.
dreaming in all text is odd by the by. i've only met a very small number of people who have done that, aside from myself.
and by far, most of what I dream and can recall is solely visual/auditory and emotional. Like watching a movie.

Be very careful when saying ANYTHING definate about dreams. The experience is not universal. If you're trying to tie reality and dreams together, just re-read what I've said about my particular dreams. That doesn't sound anything like reality to you, does it?

Try this take on reality.

We're just animals like any other. Nothing mystical. We live, eat, shit, and grope eachother as any other animal would. Then we die. In between, we exist on a hunk of wet rock that spins around a flaming ball of hydrogen and helium burning itself to death under its own weight.

There's nothing wrong with being humble and admitting you're nothing special.
Yes this IS reality, this IS all we get, this IS all we are. What's so wrong with that, please tell me, because I have never understood this yearning desire so many have to be something more than they are -to be gods. For what use, for what purpose?

And even if this world were just a collective dream, what good would that do us? You still can't make the unreal real, the impossible possible. You're still bound by the same rules and laws whether you think they are real or just some imaginary game played in an imaginary playground. You still will live, eat, shit, and grope other people, just like any other animal.

I guess the difference is I consider the things I experience to be real and meaningful, not just some fantasy.

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OfflineSHR00M0L0GIST
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2884646 - 07/13/04 12:50 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Perception Is Reality.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: SHR00M0L0GIST]
    #2884688 - 07/13/04 01:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I have tried (oh Lord how I have tried) to get this basic point across. Seems that it is missed over and over again.

Reality: There is a 1968 orange Chevy Camaro parked in the street.

Perceiver 1: Cool! I lost my virginity in a '68 Camaro.

Perceiver 2: I hate fucking Chevys. My girlfriend was killed on prom night by an asshole driving a '68 Camaro.

The car ACTUALLY exists independent of these perceivers. The perceivers assign meaning (filter reality) through their personal, historic lens. That is what is meant by "we create reality".

Now yes, the designer had to imagine and sketch out the car and the engineers and metal shapers had to build it, but that has nothing to do with the independent perceivers not involved with its creation.

Can we move on now?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2884736 - 07/13/04 01:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Can we move on now?




Ja, please. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2884762 - 07/13/04 01:52 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Let's get back to talking about important issues like chicks, music and good reefer...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2884828 - 07/13/04 02:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami! You've stumbled onto the meaning of life! :shocked: :wink:

You continue to quickly and efficently wrap up these much-debated subjects quite nicely. :lol:

So, moving on, I'm listening to Borknagar's new cd, it is so fucking amazing and so close to my ideal metal sound that my mind is blown (they are Norweigan, of course, which explains that), my girlfriend is on my bed and I keep looking over at her sexy ass, and I haven't had any good reefer in a month. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2885027 - 07/13/04 05:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Wow im suprised no one has invoked quantum mechanics in some form in this thread. Since it seems to offer the best evidence that we actually create the reality we observe by observing that particular reality instead of one of the "virtual" possible realities.

You know the whole shrodingers cat, and all that partical wave duality stuff. There is the wave function, it is held in a state of quantum superposition, both being and not being, or being one thing and the other thing at the same time, however u choose to look at it. You observe, measure, interact, whatever... You thus collapse the wave function and bring one of the equally real "virtual" possibilities into being, and that is now your observed reality(what we call "real"). Now what happens to the others is the big question. Are they just gone? are they realized in some alternate universe? or do they somehow coexist with our observed reality yet go unobserved. The math says the virtual states are as real as the actual observed states, but what happens to them?

The many worlds theory says each possiblility is realized in a new and seperate universe, or something akin to that, there are many variations on the many worlds theory.

My personal opinion is that this universe is not all there is, that it is infact just 1 cell in a much greater organism, or system/multiverse. And that that system's purpose is to generate as much complexity as possible and to actualize all possibilities, though the reason why escapes me. The only thing i can think of is the system is trying to know itself completely by experiencing itself in every way possible, and by taking all possible paths. But we are infact just an aspect of this system...we are the system. We are the manifestation of this exploration.

We in a sense are creating all we experience, and all we experience is us...just other aspects of the system as a whole, But we are infact the system. I also believe that we as consience beings each are the equivelent of one synapse or nerve cell or one piece of a much greater collective conscience that makes up the conscience entity of the whole/system. In that respect, we taken individually arent much more aware then a single cell, or synapase but taken together produce a consience entity much greater then the sum of its parts, able to explore its own nature just as we try to in our subjective/individual experience of what we call reality, but in fact all our individual struggles are actually on behalf of the system as a whole and its struggle to know itself completely, we are just agents of the system, parts of the system tasked with carrying out the will of the system. We are, and cant help but to be, and we do what we must, because it is all there is to do, and we do it exactly why, when and how we should because that is the will of the system, or it is what the system itslelf must use us to do.

Everything we experience is the system, we are the system, so we cause our own reality. Everything i experience is me, and i am all there is to experience. The system is the causeless cause, and the truth of being resides in the middle of that seeming paradox. But what seems like paradox may just result from our inability to conceptualize or experience the truth of being, of the whole/system.

What we experience as reality is a half truth, incomplete at best, how limited we are is illustrated by the faliure of our language, we cant even concieve of a causeless cause. Really that term is just a label we've attached to something we cant conceptualize. We might as well just call it the truth of being, that which cant be known, paradox, whatever terms you use to lable it, really it is just a place holder for a gap in our ability to conceptualize. Its just a sign pointing to the truth, but the truth still escapes us, unless we can transend this experience of reality and touch it directly, then maybe we get it, or more of it. But even those of us who think we may have glimpsed "it" cant describe it, verbalize it or even fully grasp it atleast it seems, if we could then why would there be so many subjective interpretations of this absolute truth? if its absolute how can it be slightly varied from one person to another unless each of us is actually not quite getting it all, or with complete clarity. i doubt that as long as we are limited by this mode of being that we currently find ourselves in, that any of us will get the whole truth with perfect clarity, hell im not even sure the system as a whole does, and maybe thats why we are here. Just agents of the system...the system itself trying to find, and fit together all the pieces of the puzzle that is its own nature.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choie but to be.

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OfflinePed
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: trendal]
    #2885922 - 07/13/04 12:01 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I've never been an enormous fan of the dream analogy as evidence that reality unfolds internally rather than externally. While at first it may seem like a plausible argument, and while at the same time it might be an absolutely correct view on things, there are obvious questions which cannot be immediately addressed. For example, the way we distinguish the dream world from what we consider to be 'reality' is by noticing that our dream world has very little consistency. Each time we dream new events unfold; there are new laws to the physical universe, and there are different people in varying situations. There is no tangible stream of action and consequence in the dream world, whereas here in the waking world we are able to connect events of our present as consequences of our actions in the past. There is a certain continuity to the waking world which gives us the strong impression that it's design originated external to us.


>> If Reality is something that is entirely "out there", meaning external to human consciousness, then all we can know about Reality is what we perceive through our sensory apparatus. It may be that we do not perceive 100% of this external reality, and as such do not have a complete picture of what Reality really is.

It is not reasonable to suggest that there is a reality which unfolds completely independent of concious interpretive faculties. If reality were so completely disconnected, emanating it's realism across an invisible chasm into totally distinct islands of conciousness, there would be no disagreement between individuals about reality or the objects within it. Additionally, if reality and conciousness were really two entirely distinct phenomenon, we must further conclude that existence itself is limited and finite, like a balloon floating atop an ocean of unfathomable nothingness. This is true because there can be no actual distinction between one and other in an infinite continuum.

>> If Reality is entirely internal to human consciousness, meaning entirely created within the mind, then a great many things should be possible which do not appear to be. Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds. Psychic phenomena is easily explained in this case as a result of the individual creation of Reality. Mass-consciousness would probably be a necessity, again for us to all experience the general same Reality. Unless, of course, I am the only being in existence and you are all just figments of my imagination! I find this option to be the least likely of the three.

You are quite correct to suggest that all of us are merely figments of your imagination. Take your good friend Ped as an example. In reading my posts, you have come to build within your own mind a structure consisting of your thoughts and feelings toward your experiences with me. You might have decided that I am comical, or too serious, friendly, or too wordy, or all of these. Once you've accumulated enough experience with my posts to generate a sufficiently identifyable knowledge of "Ped", you immediately begin developing feelings for that object. You might find that object to be desirable, undesirable, or completely neutral. Through all of this there is the underlying assumption that your knowledge of Ped is "real", as though it emanates from my nickname, from my posts, and does not originate within your mind. You might say that you "know" me, when really all you have are ideas and discriminations within your own experience, your own mind.

In this way, the Ped that you believe exists, and indeed the many different Ped's that exist within minds all over the globe right now, do not exist at all. All of them are total hallucinations. They are identifyable, even experienced as real, but are actually completely void of substance. They exist like clouds in the sky.

And if we carefully examine our experience, we will notice that we relate to everything and everyone we encounter in exactly the same way. Even the most subtle aspects of our experience are pervaded by our own imputations. We must conclude therefore that every aspect of our own reality is entirely subjective. Even if there were a totally "outside" reality, we would have absolutely no means of discovering it, mapping it, or exploring it.

>> For instance, when I look at a chair I do not see a collection of geometric shapes and colours...I see a chair. I also recognize the chair as a separate object (Self, lets say) which is not connected to its surroundings. In physical Reality this is not necessarily the case...as the only thing I am using to separate the chair from the room is the fact that the air around it is transparent to the narrow band of EM radiation my eyes are sensitive to. So the concept of Self and separateness is added to my sensory input after sensory reception. Also added is the concept of Meaning which we humans put so much thought into.

I like this balanced view. There is one comment I'd like to add to this.

When we encounter a chair, we immediately experience that name of that object. We think "chair", and there is the assumption that "chair" is emanating from the object we are encountering. If we were to pause for a moment and examine our experience with mindfulness, keeping an awareness of our mind, we will notice that it seems as though "chair" is originating from the outside. How is this possible?

It is not possible. If "chair" were originating outside of our minds, then all living beings which encountered that object would be immediately informed of "chair". They may not use the same word, but they would immediately recognize how that object is to be distinguished from other objects. If a "chair" were really a chair from it's own side, all living beings -- even those tribespeople who've never been to an office -- would encounter a chair and share the same experience of "chair".

It is not difficult to reason that our experience of reality is in this way incorrect, because it is nonsense that an object would be emanating it's identity from it's own side. Nonetheless, our mind continues to inform us that "door", "pencil", or "trendal" exist from their own side. This is cause to doubt the authenticity of our experience of reality.

>> Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds.

Do we? Or do we simply agree upon certain conventions?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (07/13/04 12:11 PM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2886088 - 07/13/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

some interesting stuff here, its hard to know what to respond to

someone said their dreams dont involve all five senses. Cool, but mine do, therefore yours CAN therefore dreams can involve all five senses. unless you have some dreaming disability or something. Either way i'm unclear as to the relevance of this.

Someone else said that we are all mundane animals with no special non or meta animal abilities, and that our life is nothing amazing.
Debating this with you would be like trying to convince someone the sky was blue, if youd rather see it as shit stain brown, i respect your choice.

Swami said something about how the only malleability of reality comes from the differances between sensation and perception. That is, multiple people can sense the same physical thing but interpret it in different ways, due to their previous prejudices. This is very true, but i think it is a different topic.

If you disagree, help me out by directly relating it to the original post rather than throwing it in halfway down and acting like its the end all be all of the discussion, cuz i didnt see the relevance.

And if you want to talk about music reefer and chicks you know damn well this is the wrong forum for it, so why derail my thread with pointless crap like that? simply put: if you dont want to play the game, go sit quietly by the sidelines.

there were some replies here that looked awesome but i didnt have the mental energy to fully absorb, so ill get back to this later.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2888169 - 07/14/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"someone said their dreams dont involve all five senses. Cool, but mine do, therefore yours CAN therefore dreams can involve all five senses. unless you have some dreaming disability or something. Either way i'm unclear as to the relevance of this.

Someone else said that we are all mundane animals with no special non or meta animal abilities, and that our life is nothing amazing.
Debating this with you would be like trying to convince someone the sky was blue, if youd rather see it as shit stain brown, i respect your choice. "

Actually, both were me. Point with the dream was.. dreams aren't as real as people often make them out to be. I know I'm not the only one. And yes, I'll go out on a limb and call it a dream disorder, or a sleep disorder, I'm fairly off-kilter deep down anyway. Was just a rebuttal to the comment that dreams mirror reality. Mine do not, and therefor, I have a very clear and set line that seperates dream from reality. If reality was just a dream, and my dreams are of X variety, should not my reality be similar?

The second point was basically a long, elaborate way of saying this:

When we die, things move on. Whether you are alive or dead, things move on largely just the same as they would have. One day when all mankind is dead, the universe will still move on, as it has done before we showed up. We don't shape reality.

Now.. yes, everything could be our own personal, elaborate dreams. You can't prove it, and you can't disprove it. Sort of like god.
But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you believe because it won't change anything. Dream or not, god or not, tomorrow will come and go just like today and yesterday did.

Really the only difference is that believing reality to be some sort of false veil, some sort of dreamlike state or shared dream.. is that it would introduce all sorts of complications to life that are unneccessary. Questioning what is real, while you're awake, leads to very long circular conversations with no resolution and no real value in my opinion. Whatever decision you come to, only would change your perception of reality.. but not reality itself.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2888277 - 07/14/04 01:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I am still struggling with the concept of how reality is internal and subjective. Yes, when I see an object I assign certain personal thoughts and interpretations to that object, and yes my sensory experience of that object depends on my senses. However, reality is consistent. If you leave something in the woods, I can go to that same spot and find it. Even though nobody was being aware of it, the object remained, and perhaps underwent physical changes, The object did exist independently of both of us, even if it did not exist in the way we normaly percieve it. People can agree on the physical nature of reality, we can agree on spacial dimensions, colors, textures, sounds, etc. all of these are consistent. Moreover, nobody has ever found a part of the brain that fabricates a hallucinated experience. The brain interprets external stimuli that come from pre-existant external causes.

It seems to me that 'consciousness' as we know it is the combination of external reality with the senses and the mind. The mind and stimuli are one in order to create our reality. 'External' and 'Internal' are abitrary terms in that they are manifestations of the same thing. But they are DIFFERENT manifestations. If you fold a piece of paper in half you experience only one side of the paper. Each side is different, and only one can be viewed at a time, but it's just one piece of paper. Besides, things have to exist in a physical sense outside of the mind, otherwise the mind itself could not exist.

Now, I think it is fair to say that nothing exists 'inherently' or seperately from anything else. That everything comes from infinite interrelated causes and conditions. But, to say that reality only exists on our side doesn't make sense to me. Of couse our perspective is relative, but that doesn't mean there isn't a pre-existant objective reality.

Edited by Divided_Sky (07/14/04 01:15 AM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2888296 - 07/14/04 01:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

" the way we distinguish the dream world from what we consider to be 'reality' is by noticing that our dream world has very little consistency."

my question is, who decided that consistency had to be one of the criteria of reality? It is one thing to say that dreams lack consistency, but their is a logical jump between that and saying that means dreams aren't real.

"Each time we dream new events unfold and there are different people in varying situations"

same things happen every time i wake up, for that matter.

"there is a certain continuity to the waking world which gives us the strong impression that it's design originated external to us."

there is a certain quality of light refraction through the atmosphere that gives us the strong impression that the moon changes in size throughout the night. Impressions are very often misleading.

Anyways the main thing i wanted to reply here to was the argument that dreams arent real because they lack the consistency of waking life. I believe The differances in consistency can only tell us weather we are awake or dreaming, but says nothing about the reality, or validity of those experiences.

Im certainly not arguing their arent numerous differances between the two states, but that doesn't make one more real than the other any more than the differance in colour between the sky and the grass does.

hmm... i just reread your post and actually you never  exactly said any of the things im refuting. Silly me. However, other people tend to say things along those lines so ill post it anyways.

  :stoned: :stoned: :stoned:

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OfflinePed
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2888429 - 07/14/04 02:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

>> I am still struggling with the concept of how reality is internal and subjective. Yes, when I see an object I assign certain personal thoughts and interpretations to that object, and yes my sensory experience of that object depends on my senses. However, reality is consistent. If you leave something in the woods, I can go to that same spot and find it. Even though nobody was being aware of it, the object remained, and perhaps underwent physical changes, The object did exist independently of both of us, even if it did not exist in the way we normaly percieve it. People can agree on the physical nature of reality, we can agree on spacial dimensions, colors, textures, sounds, etc. all of these are consistent.

The problem here, I think, is that you are assuming your mind to be the same as your Self. Like all things, however, the self is a meaningless construct made up of ideas and discriminations. Those ideas and discriminations exist within your mind. Therefore, self and mind are not of the same nature. The mind encounters the self in the same way that it encounters all other objects: with knowledge.

Perhaps the best means of understanding how mind and reality are of the same nature is by understanding the many similarites between the two. The mind is a formless continuum which has it's dimension through space as well as time. It's nature is of perfect clarity. It is said that the a while glass is clear, it is not clear enough to know. The mind is clear enough to know. It's function is to perceive objects. The mind is always working to discriminate objects from eachother, to assemble order from no order, distinction from non-distinction. The mind is aggressive in this way: it is always working, even as we sleep, to generate ideas and discriminations for us to relate to. Reality, on the other hand, while identical in it's formless expansiveness through space and time, is but empty space. It is the blank, passive plain upon which an aggressive mind projects it's show. Now, don't misunderstand: this does not mean that mind can be separated from reality in the same way that a movie projector can be removed from the theater. Mind and reality are dynamically interlocked, and can never be separated from eachother.

Now, even if you don't believe so, please humor me and suppose for a moment that what I've said above is true. Consider the following questions. When you deposit an object in the woods, where is it that you are actually depositing it? Do the woods exist outside of your mind? Does the object exist outside of your mind? If so, how did you get there? How do you know that what you have is an object?

Of course, all of this begs the question: what of the universe prior to the life within it? This question is the product of a series of unfounded assumptions about mind and Self. These assumptions are: that the human brain is where the mind originates and resides, that each mind is as isolated as a tropical island with but one palm tree, and that the self, being the same as the mind, also originates and is isolated within the human brain.

What if none of this were true? Personally, I find it remarkable that this is such a widely accepted point of view. It is a point of view which cannot be verified, has little to no supporting evidence, and is typically propagated using circular reasoning, as though all of it were self-evident. How terribly unscientific. It is almost as bad as saying "the Bible is true because the Bible says so."

Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self. Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself? Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness?

Now, this is just an idea. It cannot be verified, nor does it have any supporting evidence. The only advantage this idea has over the point of view described above is that this idea is completely opposite to our conventional assumptions about ourselves and our world. That our conventional assumptions would bear resemblence to the way things actually are, this I find very unlikely. If we can understand that our present assumptions about mind and reality have no concrete basis, we should be able to examine our experience within the context of alternative perspectives.

And that has got to be entertainment more realistic than either the Xbox or the Playstation 2.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2888515 - 07/14/04 03:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self.  Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself?  Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness? 




Man, I've been having a lot of thoughts tonight, and this really struck a chord with me, considering what has been going through my, erm.. "mind"... :grin: I just have to say that I've always learned from you and I really appreciate you taking the time to post here and spread the knowledge, it has changed me so much, its unbelievable!  :laugh: :thumbup: :heart:

As far as the highly-ordered structures with the numerous connection points channeling the mind, consciousness... I just have to mention mycelium as another great example. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2888627 - 07/14/04 04:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I take issue with this....
"When we die, things move on. Whether you are alive or dead, things move on largely just the same as they would have. One day when all mankind is dead, the universe will still move on, as it has done before we showed up. We don't shape reality."

Every single thing you do and dont do shapes the entire universe and helps to make it what it will be. Even one breath changes everything. Just because the effects are not always noticable or immediate doesnt mean they arent there, or significant.

I may die tomorrow, just by dying i will have made one of the following days the day of my funeral. My death will likely impact the lives of my friends and family substantially. And it made that whole day into something it otherwise would not have been, not to mention the effects of every action or nonaction of that day and every day before it rippling thru the end of time, constantly effecting the state of the universe as a whole. So in my opinion one breath is significant...a life time of events is down right mind blowing.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2890419 - 07/14/04 03:34 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>>

The problem here, I think, is that you are assuming your mind to be the same as your Self. Like all things, however, the self is a meaningless construct made up of ideas and discriminations. Those ideas and discriminations exist within your mind. Therefore, self and mind are not of the same nature. The mind encounters the self in the same way that it encounters all other objects: with knowledge.

Perhaps the best means of understanding how mind and reality are of the same nature is by understanding the many similarites between the two. The mind is a formless continuum which has it's dimension through space as well as time. It's nature is of perfect clarity. It is said that the a while glass is clear, it is not clear enough to know. The mind is clear enough to know. It's function is to perceive objects. The mind is always working to discriminate objects from eachother, to assemble order from no order, distinction from non-distinction. The mind is aggressive in this way: it is always working, even as we sleep, to generate ideas and discriminations for us to relate to. Reality, on the other hand, while identical in it's formless expansiveness through space and time, is but empty space. It is the blank, passive plain upon which an aggressive mind projects it's show. Now, don't misunderstand: this does not mean that mind can be separated from reality in the same way that a movie projector can be removed from the theater. Mind and reality are dynamically interlocked, and can never be separated from eachother.

Now, even if you don't believe so, please humor me and suppose for a moment that what I've said above is true. Consider the following questions. When you deposit an object in the woods, where is it that you are actually depositing it? Do the woods exist outside of your mind? Does the object exist outside of your mind? If so, how did you get there? How do you know that what you have is an object?

Of course, all of this begs the question: what of the universe prior to the life within it? This question is the product of a series of unfounded assumptions about mind and Self. These assumptions are: that the human brain is where the mind originates and resides, that each mind is as isolated as a tropical island with but one palm tree, and that the self, being the same as the mind, also originates and is isolated within the human brain.

What if none of this were true? Personally, I find it remarkable that this is such a widely accepted point of view. It is a point of view which cannot be verified, has little to no supporting evidence, and is typically propagated using circular reasoning, as though all of it were self-evident. How terribly unscientific. It is almost as bad as saying "the Bible is true because the Bible says so."

Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self. Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself? Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness?

Now, this is just an idea. It cannot be verified, nor does it have any supporting evidence. The only advantage this idea has over the point of view described above is that this idea is completely opposite to our conventional assumptions about ourselves and our world. That our conventional assumptions would bear resemblence to the way things actually are, this I find very unlikely. If we can understand that our present assumptions about mind and reality have no concrete basis, we should be able to examine our experience within the context of alternative perspectives.





I still don't understand how this view can address certain consistencies of reality. For example an ancient civilization creates a shrine and it is lost and forgotten for 2,000 years. For all that time there was no person to observe or even concieve of the shrine. And yet, 2,000 years later somebody else who has never even heard of the object accidently finds it. The person takes it to a museum and it is only then that they discover what it is and bring it back into the continuim of mental knowledge. All of that time the object somehow remained in existence and endured physical change without any consciousness even thinking of it. And when it came back into human experience it was percieved by a different person with no knowledge of it. The object remains and undergoes change irregardless of individual consciousness.

If the mind projects reality, how is this possible?

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2891280 - 07/14/04 08:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"I may die tomorrow, just by dying i will have made one of the following days the day of my funeral. My death will likely impact the lives of my friends and family substantially. And it made that whole day into something it otherwise would not have been, not to mention the effects of every action or nonaction of that day and every day before it rippling thru the end of time, constantly effecting the state of the universe as a whole. So in my opinion one breath is significant...a life time of events is down right mind blowing."

Well.. obviously, dying does have consequences. But zoom out a bit. By and by large we're all incredibly insignificant. People die every day -- lots of people. If it's not you, it's someone else. Someone, somewhere, is always dying. So, yes, death does have an effect, but if your window is big enough any one particular death is largely unnoticable.
And through an even larger window, whether there ever was anything alive on this planet or not, the sun wouldn't care. Nor would the earth I wager -- it would continue spinning around. And even when the sun dies and turns into a cool dark ball of heavy-ish elements?
It's just a star. There are, if I can steal a mis-quote, billions and billions of stars in the universe.

That was my point, really. Reality itself -- the entirety of reality, not just that which we have seen or heard or experienced personally -- really doesn't give two shits about any of us. Reality exists of its own accord, completely apart from us. We only experience that which was already there, long before we came along, and which will remain long, long after we're all gone. It's only our own experience of reality that is dependent upon us.

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