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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ?
    #28895156 - 07/31/24 03:15 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

I have been reading up on water tub tek and bottom watering and was wondering if I can safely use both twos together.

Also how often should I be misting and fanning with a set up like this? I would assume less misting and more fanning because of the added hydration sources ?


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InvisibleLyleChipperson


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Posts: 468
Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn] * 1
    #28895172 - 07/31/24 03:24 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

What do you mean by bottom watering combined with a water tub? Do you want the cakes' bottoms to touch the water?

Usual practice is to dunk the cakes in water for 24 hrs before covering them in coir/verm and placing them in the tub, and again for at least a couple hours after each flush.

Fanning is not needed, just crack the lid on the water tub slightly/rotate the lid so the corners are uncovered and look for surface conditions. If there are water droplets on the surface, no need to mist. If you have to mist and the droplets are gone in just a couple hours, reduce the size of the opening on the lid so it holds moisture longer.

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: LyleChipperson]
    #28895213 - 07/31/24 03:40 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

Awesome.

The bottom watering I am referring to is placing the cake in a jar lid after it’s started to fruit and filling the lid with water.

I have been spraying so frequently but my surface conditions never have micro beads. I feel like I am spraying it way too much. 10-15 sprays


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OfflineRockinRobot
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28895229 - 07/31/24 03:50 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

If you aren't getting beading most likely cause is you don't have enough cakes for the size of your Water Tub. Hard to say without a picture, but most that come here with this issue have that problem. You shouldn't need to fan or mist when set up correctly.

Remember your cakes make up a lot of the moisture that causes the micro climate. Having too few for the size of tote will leave the humidity low.

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InvisibleLyleChipperson


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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28895237 - 07/31/24 03:53 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

No need to do that with the jar lid, the water in the tub will provide plenty of moisture.

Post some pics, it will make it easier to tell what's going on. If you rolled your cakes in verm/coir and the mycelium hasn't covered that layer yet, you won't see micro beads no matter how much you spray. The mycelium is what holds the beads, verm/coir will just absorb water and look wetter. There's usually no reason to mist before the mycelium colonizes that top layer, assuming that whatever you rolled your cakes in was hydrated to field capacity.

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: LyleChipperson]
    #28895247 - 07/31/24 03:58 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)





So this makes sense as I only have one cake in the tub now.

It finished before the others and started pinning so I had to put it in the chamber alone while the other jars finish.

FYI the last pic with the small pin was two days after being in water tub with lid closed.


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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn] * 1
    #28895249 - 07/31/24 04:00 PM (5 months, 14 days ago)

Lyle this makes total sense.

The cake started fruiting before any myc could further colonize so that makes sense why I can never see water droplets.

But the fruit is growing.


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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28896008 - 08/01/24 06:25 AM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Checked the cake this morning and still seeing progress. I doubt I will get any other pins from the cake.

Do I understand at this point misting and spraying is just causing evaporation which triggers pinning or the further growing of the fruit?


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InvisibleLyleChipperson


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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28896069 - 08/01/24 07:30 AM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Ideally you'd stop misting once the pins are out, because too much water can soak the fruits and cause some issues.

The pins will draw water from the cake/substrate and grow as much as they can. This is why you dunk cakes and hydrate tubs after flushes, to restore some of the lost water. The water in the tub serves to help with holding the surface moisture on the mycelium so you can get as many pins as possible.

The pictured cake won't grow more pins now, once these mushrooms are mature and ready to pick, then you can dunk the cake, cover with more verm/coir if needed, and let new pins form for a second flush. One advantage of coir for cakes is that you can plaster a thicker layer on them, which will hold more moisture for the mycelium to draw when the shrooms are growing.

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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: LyleChipperson]
    #28896141 - 08/01/24 08:22 AM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Take a picture from above the tub and include the entire tub.
If you have single cakes use zip lock bags as water tubs(bags). Put the cake and the lid it’s sitting on in the zip lock, add some water and zip the bag almost closed. That’ll give you a nice humid environment.
No current water tub tek here says anything about fanning. What are you reading?
Zip locks

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OfflineUtahGetMeTwo
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao]
    #28896177 - 08/01/24 09:01 AM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Tao said:
If you have single cakes use zip lock bags as water tubs(bags).
Zip locks




Oh wow! First I’m seeing this. Seems like this would also be a good solution when having jars that are colonizing at different speeds. I currently only have one larger sterilite container that I planned on using as a water tub for 9 tall 1/2 pint jars, but half have been colonizing slower than the other half. Might have to use this. Thanks!


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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao]
    #28896436 - 08/01/24 12:17 PM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Tao said:
No current water tub tek here says anything about fanning. What are you reading?
Zip locks



I was mistaken on that. I had merged other teks with this out of confusion.

But I will say I am understand more about why we need surface conditions and what they promote in the growth cycle. Before I just knew you misted and needed humidity.

Starting to see some of the whys.


Here is a pic from top.


I have stopped misting. I am promoting FAE with the tub lid vented.

I am continuing to bottom water as to me it makes sense to have that little extra gas tank for them.

It seems like every time I check back the fruiting body on the bottom has grown more. The other is growing as well but it appears dry vs the one that is partially in the water is appearing far more hydrated. Which makes sense because it’s sitting in water.

But in spite of my misunderstanding this thing is still doing its thing. That’s been my biggest take away. I always stress that it’s going to die but these things are so incredibly resilient. If you let them. They will thrive.

I’m just going to let him ride


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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: LyleChipperson] * 1
    #28896548 - 08/01/24 01:49 PM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

LyleChipperson said:
Ideally you'd stop misting once the pins are out, because too much water can soak the fruits and cause some issues.

The pins will draw water from the cake/substrate and grow as much as they can. This is why you dunk cakes and hydrate tubs after flushes, to restore some of the lost water. The water in the tub serves to help with holding the surface moisture on the mycelium so you can get as many pins as possible.

The pictured cake won't grow more pins now, once these mushrooms are mature and ready to pick, then you can dunk the cake, cover with more verm/coir if needed, and let new pins form for a second flush. One advantage of coir for cakes is that you can plaster a thicker layer on them, which will hold more moisture for the mycelium to draw when the shrooms are growing.




What type of issues come from continued misting ? Contam issues?

I am curious if evaporation being the trigger we are after to start fruiting, would continuing to give that trigger be beneficial to growth. I only ask because I’ve been misting and fanning several times a day and I swear every time I go back the fruit is bigger.

But I am inclined to stop all fanning and misting as I feel like that is the whole point of the water tub.

I have originally thought that surface condition in the FC was all about the hydration of the cake and its fluid stores if you will. I thought you were keeping the cake hydrated from the misting which I now see is incorrect.

I am now seeing the hydration comes from the soak and or bottom watering. The surface condition are more just there for the evaporation to trigger pinning.


I appreciate all of the wisdom. This has been a great experience.

Your explanation really helped things click and seeing the bigger picture. So grateful man. Thank you !!


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InvisibleLyleChipperson


Registered: 09/29/23
Posts: 468
Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28896701 - 08/01/24 03:06 PM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Happy to help! Just don't take my word for granted, I'm still new myself so I may say some dumb shit sometimes, but I hope someone else will chime in at that point.

Honestly I'm not sure if misting too much can cause problems like aborts and such, I guess you'd have to blast them quite hard for that to happen, but at least it can lead to super soggy fruits, and I'd rather take care of my setup so I don't get those. If you end up having to store them in the fridge for a couple days so you can get a full dehydrator tray going, I don't think that soggy fruits will take that too well. A light mist shouldn't be an issue, but I have no idea how much someone is spraying when it comes to strangers online, so I try to offer the safest possible advice.

The pins will absorb the water from misting, but I don't see how a mist will carry a whole flush. Mist looks like a lot of droplets but it's a small amount of water, and by comparison a cake with a thick coating or a tub substrate will hold a lot more water than that.

I try to nail my substrate moisture and FAE opening so I only need to mist minimally and very lightly, for me that's no more than 1 mist a day with just 3-4 sprays max, and that's not for the entire length of the grow, but rather for a couple days when it's needed. Especially with a water tub, if it's dialed in there's so much available moisture, it should be able to stick to the cake in most indoor conditions.

Mushrooms always grow the most right at the end of the flush, so that's what you're seeing now. It's not the fanning, it's just their time to grow. It takes longer to set up a flush with the primordia and pins, but once the pinset is in and they've grown a little bit, it's a quick race to the finish line. Maybe some PE varieties or other species take longer and are more gradual, but that's what I've noticed with regular cubes and Nats.

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: LyleChipperson]
    #28896995 - 08/01/24 07:52 PM (5 months, 13 days ago)

Well we will see how these turn out. Hopefully can make some adjustments with me new found knowledge.

Right now I’m just struggling with misting the cakes after rolling. I know this is the one time they can get a good soaking but no mater what the cakes never look saturated.



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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28897388 - 08/02/24 06:41 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

Morning update.

Harvested the two fruits and waiting for surface growth on these new cakes I just put in.










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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28897416 - 08/02/24 07:14 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

How many cakes and how many tubs do you have going?

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao]
    #28897462 - 08/02/24 08:01 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

The Tao said:
How many cakes and how many tubs do you have going?




So I have 3 tubs.

I had one with a solo cake because it started pinning in vitro so I dunk and rolled him by him self.

I just harvested him and he is soaking now for 12 hours then reroll in some hydrated verm this time instead of dry as I think that was a problem with these last ones and achieving surface conditions.

I have 14 other cakes that I just put in the tub yesterday. They will be joined by the solo cake once it’s done soaking.

The. I have 9 more jars and two brf bags that I will hopefully be able to do something with in the next two weeks. They seem to have stalled due to lack of FAE. I addressed that so hopefully they pick back up and I can try either wet verm or coir


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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn] * 1
    #28897494 - 08/02/24 08:42 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

The tub with 9 cakes in it can handle 6 more cakes. There is a lot of volume in that tub.

This is a 6 quart tub with 4 half pint BRF.


This is an 8 quart with 5 cakes. Intended for 6 cakes, one contaminated.


2.2 with 2

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao]
    #28897513 - 08/02/24 09:07 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

The Tao said:
The tub with 9 cakes in it can handle 6 more cakes. There is a lot of volume in that tub.

This is a 6 quart tub with 4 half pint BRF.


This is an 8 quart with 5 cakes. Intended for 6 cakes, one contaminated.
o look

2.2 with 2





So you think it’s worth putting the other 5 in there? As in it’s worth disturbing the cakes and disrupting the climate to move them over ?


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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28897547 - 08/02/24 09:58 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

I would gang them together. I use old Petri dishes or plastic lids on the bottom of my cakes rather than foil. It gives me something to lift with without touching the cakes.
Your tub is at least twice the volume I would use.

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao]
    #28897577 - 08/02/24 10:38 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

The Tao said:
I would gang them together. I use old Petri dishes or plastic lids on the bottom of my cakes rather than foil. It gives me something to lift with without touching the cakes.
Your tub is at least twice the volume I would use.




Done


I was u aware that was the wrong tub. I thought the tek said any tub will do. But it does make sense that a smaller micro climate would be more ideal for less cakes.

What is your ideal tub size and what is your preferred number of cakes per tub?


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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: SeymourKrelborn]
    #28897633 - 08/02/24 11:37 AM (5 months, 12 days ago)

I measure using the jars I use for cakes. If 12 jars fit snuggled together I would use that for 6 cakes. It gives a bit of room between the cakes and maintains a nice climate without my help.
For height, approximately 1-2 times the height of the cakes to allow room for the fruits. They’ll push the lid up on their own and you can always put a loose bag over top.

Edited by The Tao (08/02/24 11:38 AM)

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OfflineSeymourKrelborn
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Re: water tub tek with brf cakes, can I still bottom water ? [Re: The Tao] * 1
    #28898483 - 08/03/24 08:13 AM (5 months, 11 days ago)

W
Quote:

The Tao said:
I measure using the jars I use for cakes. If 12 jars fit snuggled together I would use that for 6 cakes. It gives a bit of room between the cakes and maintains a nice climate without my help.
For height, approximately 1-2 times the height of the cakes to allow room for the fruits. They’ll push the lid up on their own and you can always put a loose bag over top.





Well I checked this morning and have some myc surface growth. Very pleased.





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