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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: d33p]
    #2906850 - 07/19/04 10:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i have learned to accept that my beleifs may end up having me labeled as crazy but i will go with my inner feelings and my own knowledge and will not let others opinions and personal desisions conform me to one side or the other on any desision. i will make my own path in life

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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2907074 - 07/19/04 11:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

just wanted to mention that molten steal proves absolutly nothing. even if NASA's AVIRUS only recorded tempatures of around 1,300F+ and the steals melting point was 2,500F+. See it ignores the defention of tempature. You are measuring the AVERAGE heat. I dunno if you've had any college physics courses but to simplfly it, you have all these molocules scattering about, they move faster the hotter they get. They bump into each other during this process, when that happens you can have one come to almost a complete stop while another absorbs all of it's energy because it transfered it's energy. similar to those rows of 5 balls that hang and when the outer one hits it only moves the outer one on the otherside. Therefore it's perfectly resonable that actual heat rose above 2,500F if you have anysort of education which kinda makes the orginal writer of that artice look pretty ignorant to me.

If you don't believe me think of this; All the oceans of the world never get hotter than 35C (actually i don't even think it's that high) water boils at 100C right? So how do billions of gallons evaporate everyday from the ocean if water absolutly cannot turn into vapor until heated to 100C (and actually takes more energy than that to break the hydrogen bonds) ???

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2907529 - 07/20/04 02:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying that although the average temperature was 1300F it jumped occasionally to 2,500F which was enough to cause the steel to melt?

As for water in the ocean, the reason it evaporates is due to the vapour pressure of water.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2907557 - 07/20/04 03:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well i have posted this same post on anumber of boards on the net and i have to say i have learned. i sold the people of america short, i thought almost everyone was with medias veiw of things and way beyond seeing or even considering the facts as they truely are. well with your and others debates it has shown me truth always has a way of getting though to the truely open and enlightened ones

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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: GazzBut]
    #2907763 - 07/20/04 08:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Are you saying that although the average temperature was 1300F it jumped occasionally to 2,500F which was enough to cause the steel to melt?




something like that, not that the entire area jumped to 2,500F+ that a number of molocules could have easily and eventually (couple days/weeks) made a big ole puddle of molten steel.

Quote:

As for water in the ocean, the reason it evaporates is due to the vapour pressure of water.





Vapor Pressure? The water from the ocean evaporates because molocules of water rise to and above 100C, you can have a few other molocules at like 10C and it will make the tempature reading somewhere around 30C in the tropics during summer, from there it takes 540 calories to break the hydrogen bonds, when the water condenses it's engery is trasferred to power things such as lightning, hurricanes, wind, and various other weather stuff. also water evaporates from kitchen floors when mopped and your skin when you sweat all because some of the molocules reach their vapor point (100C) and got the nessary other 540 calories from solar energy to break the hydrogen bonds :stoned:

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Loc: London UK
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2907783 - 07/20/04 08:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Im sorry but I think you are wrong. Here is an explanation I found of why water evaporates outside: "There's an awful lot of room for water molecules in the air. Any that happen to fly up in the air are very unlikely to return once they wander a bit away from the starting place. Unless there are already a lot of water molecules in the air, the flow will be one way, from the liquid to the gas. In order to keep there from being net evaporation, there miust be a flow back from the air to the water.
The concentration of water molecules in the air is often given by the relative humidity. At 100% relative humidity, the flow of molecules from a cup of water into the air will just balance the flow from the air to the cup, if they're both at the same temperature. It's true that the rate at which the water molecules leaves goes up quickly as the water gets hotter and the rate at which the molecules returns only goes up a little as the air gets hotter. So the evaporation is much faster when the water is hotter, and 100 % relative humidity means a higher concentration of water in the air when it's hot than when it's cold. So that's probably where the impression arises that water shouldn't evaporate when it's cold."

According to this explanation water will evaporate quicker at higher temps but certainly does not need to reach 100c.

Im afraid I find it very hard to believe your explanation regarding molten steel if you dont even know how water evaporates!! To be fair, I only knew by doing a quick google  :smirk:


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
and fell

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 537
Loc: MI
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2908018 - 07/20/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What caused the heat to rise so high? I've been trying to make steel melt all morning using kerosene, paper, and rugs in an oxygen poor environment, with no luck...

I think I'll try thermite next.


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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2908093 - 07/20/04 10:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Talking about a "few molecules" happening to randomly bump themselves up in temperature is far different than talking about pools of molten steel...

Have you ever seen water boil on its own through random increases in the temperature of single molecules?

Then what makes yout think that steel would melt because of a few random increases in temperature?

Also: note that the increase in this manner has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the average or total temperature of the mass itself (other than evaporating water...which actually cools down the remaining liquid water)...so there is no way that over a few weeks time steel could increase it's temperature in the way you suggest.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: GazzBut]
    #2908594 - 07/20/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I have to agree. Consider that sometimes it rains but the water never reaches the ground. The water vapor in the air that is the source of rain is not 100c+. Water can evap at any temp between the dewpoint and boiling as long as relative humidity is below 100%. At 100% RH evaporation does not stop but the rate of evaporation equals the rate of condensation.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: GazzBut]
    #2908993 - 07/20/04 03:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry but I know you are wrong :smirk:

All that expalins is what happens after water becomes vaporized not what caused it to be vaporized.

Each water molocule is hydrogen-bonded to adjacent molocules, heat energy is required to break those bonds and allow the molocule to fly away from the surface, it dosn't just happen because the air dosn't have a RH of 100%. Simple example of hydrogen bonds, Surface tension: small bugs can walk on the surface of the water, try it with anything else (ammonia, tolouene ect.) they will sink; why? Hydrogen bonds. Put a glass of water in the low-humidity drawer in your fridge and get back to me when it has evaporated. It will take years because the fridge slows the molocules, therefore reducing the number that reach 100C. The hydrogen bonds MUST be broken in order for water (liquid) to turn to vapor. This takes a total of about 780 calories per gram of water.

Calorie = the amount of heat required to rase the tempature of 1 gram of pure water by 1C. This is where you come in trendal :smile:

Quote:

Have you ever seen water boil on its own through random increases in the temperature of single molecules?




Okay now i said a calorie is the amount to heat 1g of water 1C, so why is it that i also said water wouldn't turn to a vapor until about 780 calories (per g water)? shouldn't the water be 780C if 780 calories of energy were used to heat it? hmm, seems strange. I guess those hydrogen bonds are coming into play again eh? It's called the latent heat of vaporazation and water's is extraordanly high, way higher than steels. That's why water dosn't boil on it's own. Plus as you say it dosn't change the tempature, but tempature is a measure of the average heat. you can have water vapor at 140C and liquid at 35C and the tempature would be ~87.5C not hot enough to boil if you had another pan above it in an enclosed area it would boil the water there... how can 87.5C water boil more water when it itself isn't boiling? Well the tempature of the vapor is above the boiling point and when water condenses all that energy you used to break the hydrogen bonds is released (ala lightning, hurricanes, wind, ect.) :stoned:

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2911582 - 07/21/04 08:19 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Ha! You could be right you know!! One thing though - if the Average temperature of the steel was 1300 isnt it highly unlikely that enough molecules would have reached the required temperature to reduce the steel to a puddle? Doesnt the reaction slow every time one of these molecules escapes? And as the required temperature is so far above the average isnt it unlikely that enough molecules would have reached that temperature to allow the steel to melt?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (07/21/04 08:26 AM)

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2911894 - 07/21/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry but you are wrong. evaporation is a surface phenomenon - some molecules have enough kinetic energy to escape. Since the molecular kinetic energy is greater at higher temperature, more molecules can escape the surface. 100c is boiling at SEA LEVEL but boiling at a higher altitude is less than 100c. Therefore evaporation is not a function of temperature. How does your fruiting chamber reach 90%RH when it is well below 100c? When you PC your jars water does not boil in there at 100c.

Evap directly relates to molecular kinetic energy an indirectly to temp. There is a degree of separation there.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: the facts about 911 [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2912887 - 07/21/04 03:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Each water molocule is hydrogen-bonded to adjacent molocules, heat energy is required to break those bonds and allow the molocule to fly away from the surface. Period.

Of course if you change the pressure the boiling point will go up or down, what was that susposed to prove?

Re fruiting chamber: the same way water evaporates for the ocean when it never goes above 35C.

I'm not going to contine this arguement, it is after all a political forum (my fault, i know). My Physics professor (Ph.D.) tends to disagree with you though...

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: John]
    #2912952 - 07/21/04 04:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You specifically said "The water from the ocean evaporates because molocules of water rise to and above 100C".

And that specifically is not true.

It is true that it takes a certain amount of energy to break the bond but you must use the correct energy measure (which you did when you dropped temp and started using calories.

peace.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2912957 - 07/21/04 04:25 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
I'm sorry but you are wrong. evaporation is a surface phenomenon - some molecules have enough kinetic energy to escape. Since the molecular kinetic energy is greater at higher temperature, more molecules can escape the surface. 100c is boiling at SEA LEVEL but boiling at a higher altitude is less than 100c. Therefore evaporation is not a function of temperature. How does your fruiting chamber reach 90%RH when it is well below 100c? When you PC your jars water does not boil in there at 100c.

Evap directly relates to molecular kinetic energy an indirectly to temp. There is a degree of separation there.




Wow yall is dumb. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy. So basically John is right but he explanned it using the wrong term.

Each particle that escapes technically could be described as being 100C beacuse it has that ammount of KE but it cant be measured really. Its kind of a strech, not something a scientist would say.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Edited by d33p (07/21/04 04:30 PM)

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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Re: the facts about 911 [Re: d33p]
    #2912989 - 07/21/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Wow yall is dumb. Temperature is a measure of the average kinetic energy. So basically John is right but he explanned it used the wrong term.

Each particle that escapes technically could be described as being 100C beacuse it has that ammount of KE but it cant be measured really. Its kind of a strech, not something a scientist would say.





Don't you mean "technically should not be described as being" Technically he is part right and and so are the rest of us. Evap doesn't happen because water = 100c=+. There is more to it. otherwise wouldn't boiling point be 100c regardless of altitude?


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

Edited by mntlfngrs (07/21/04 04:39 PM)

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