Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2887319 - 07/13/04 07:24 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JPZ said:
I get it now.

Ok, so what is the libertarian policy toward stopping the spread of AIDS?



* Here's the COMMON SENSE policy if you don't want to get AIDS:
1. Don't fuck. That works.
2. If you must fuck, fuck only 1 person that you know(hope) is faithful and clean. That usually works.
3. If you want to fuck someone questionable put a bag on the dick.

*? zappaisgod, 2004


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2887342 - 07/13/04 07:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2887613 - 07/13/04 09:11 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, so what is the libertarian policy toward stopping the spread of AIDS?

there is no libertarian government policy toward stopping the spread of AIDS because stopping diseases (especially acquired ones) is not a legitimate function of government.

your question is based on the classic leftist assumption about how any and every problem in society is to be approached.

"what is the government going to do about this..."

you can buy these at gas stations, grocery stores, drug stores, walmart, vending machines in bathrooms, online...



they are called condoms.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2887741 - 07/13/04 10:06 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I believe that the United States gets 40,000 new cases of HIV infection every year. It is hard for me to believe that people don't know the risk factors at this point, we are in the third decade of the deadly disease.

The US government has spent over $100 billion dollars on AIDS since 1981, and funding has increased each and every year.

Personally, I think we get little bang for the buck with the CDC and the National Institutes of Health. I think it would be cheaper to offer a 10 billion dollar reward to whoever can come up with a cure, and then stop doing the government research on it. Let the private market invest to try and win the 10 billion. We only would have to pay the winner, and those who fail would not be compensated for their risk taking. The 10 billion would provide incentive for people to take the appropriate risks.

I do believe that the government has a role in fighting disease. Just the tracking function alone at the CDC. You need to know what is going on at a national level. You need to coordinate information to make sure you can alert people to danger at the earliest time possible.

If a new infectious disease comes on line, we need to know as soon as possible. We need to know if we have to shut down airports or quarantine people. We are also probably at the dawn of the age of biological warfare. Terrorists would like nothing more to unleash a deadly killer in the US mainstream. I don't like big government, but it would seem to me that the government certainly would have some role in public health.

I believe in free markets, but free markets don't provide all public goods. Free markets also have the flaw of the free rider problem.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2887761 - 07/13/04 10:12 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I think it would be cheaper to offer a 10 billion dollar reward to whoever can come up with a cure, and then stop doing the government research on it. Let the private market invest to try and win the 10 billion.

how about just letting people invest whatever they want to invest based on the prospects for success and how much a cure for aids would actually be worth?

if the research is truly worthwhile, it doesn't need a government subsidy or $10 billion reward.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: ]
    #2887826 - 07/13/04 10:33 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The private market hasn't really gotten us a cure yet, and most of the HIV infections live in third world Africa. I doubt their is much money in finding a cure for all those Africans, though it might net someone a Nobel Prize. I think it would be a good thing to come up with a cure, and I think that the private market would be more efficient at doing the research than the government. I think that they need more of an incentive to attain this public good, and that is why I offer a reward for whoever can bring it to the table.

Economically, the incentives of the private market can sometimes be perverse when it comes to public health. If my company makes an AIDS cocktail that preserves life but doesn't cure the disease, than I know every HIV infected person is a customer for life. Demand for my product would be inelastic, and patients will have to buy it at any price. That is a great situation for me to be in, and even if I developed a cure it may not be in my economic interest to bring it to market. You can only cure people once, but you can sell them maintenance drugs for decades.

I love free markets, but they don't solve all of our problems. One of the main charges of government is to protect us. Think of the police, the fire department, and the armed forces. Free markets don't produce those. Free individuals engaged in private gain seeking activity that free markets encourage don't voluntarily provide for these things. The same case can be made for public health. It is in all of our best interests that we don't allow deadly diseases to rampage thoughout the country.

I think that AIDS has been overfunded, and I don't think the money that we have paid has been well spent. But I don't believe for a second that the Government shouldn't be paying very close attention to disease and public health issues. I think that a convincing argument can be made that public health is a matter of national security, at least on some level.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2887861 - 07/13/04 10:42 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If my company makes an AIDS cocktail that preserves life but doesn't cure the disease, than I know every HIV infected person is a customer for life. Demand for my product would be inelastic, and patients will have to buy it at any price.



These people are content now paying for your aids cocktail their whole life? You do not take into account rival companies that stand to still make an insane amount of money by finding a true cure and freeing people of their addiction to your life-preserver.

While irrelevant, I just thought I'd point out that the exact scenario you suggested in the above quote took place in a Star Trek:TNG episode.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: ]
    #2887959 - 07/13/04 11:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Ok, so what is the libertarian policy toward stopping the spread of AIDS?

there is no libertarian government policy toward stopping the spread of AIDS because stopping diseases (especially acquired ones) is not a legitimate function of government.

your question is based on the classic leftist assumption about how any and every problem in society is to be approached.

"what is the government going to do about this..."

you can buy these at gas stations, grocery stores, drug stores, walmart, vending machines in bathrooms, online...



they are called condoms.




I agree, but only in first world countries. Not in most parts of Africa. The US government isn't even promoting the use of condoms first in Africa. They are promoting abstinence first, which is a religious idea, and therefore full of shit and not viable. Humans are made to fuck.


You say that it is not the government's problem. So we should leave it up to...whom? Charities (who actually do most of the work) can't survive without donations from governments.

And if it's not the government's responsibility to stop disease, why is it their responsibility to fight terrorism?


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2887977 - 07/13/04 11:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


These people are content now paying for your aids cocktail their whole life? You do not take into account rival companies that stand to still make an insane amount of money by finding a true cure and freeing people of their addiction to your life-preserver.







The flaw with this situation is that many people cannot afford the treatments. Do you agree with making the patent available to be freely copied and sold at a much cheaper rate?

Also, it's not as if research isn't being carried out. They could use a fraction of the money being spent on defence, but AIDS isn't a priority right now. I have a feeling that this problem is going to rear up and bite us on the ass in the near future though.


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2888001 - 07/13/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Hello? Is ANYBODY home? The only sure way to prevent the sexual spread of HIV is abstinence. Now this may coincide with certain religious beliefs, but so what? I'm not religious in the slightest, I don't believe in any kind of god, but I recognize the truth of the situation. Don't let your intolerance of religion blind you to reality. It's BIOLOGY, not religion.

Regardless, it is not the U.S. government's job to halt the spread of HIV in Africa. If we are going to worry about diseases think about this, a much greater number of fatalities occur from cancer than AIDS but the funding goes disproportionately towards aids. Why is that?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2888041 - 07/13/04 11:43 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Most of my best material comes from Star Trek.

I acknowledge your point about the competition that exists in the free market. It is valid, but I am not sure how much profit exists in a cure for AIDS. Most of the cases are in Africa, and they don't have the money to pay. Also, the incentive would most probably be for another company to produce a better maintenance drug than an actual cure. It is tough to make money selling a one time product. The money is in the maintenance.

The disease has two stages. 1 stage is being HIV positive, and the 2nd stage is having full blown AIDS. The current medication is sometimes refered to as a cocktail. It attacks the ability of the retrovirus to genetically replicate itself, and it in effect suspends the disease. People that are HIV positive can live for decades now. One individual has been HIV positive for 21 years.

Think about that. These people can live for decades. The yearly cost for drug treatments for patients that are HIV positive is $12,000.00. Over the course of 21 years, that would be over a quarter of a million dollars. That is where the money is. How much do you think you could reasonably charge for a one time cure? Charge too much and it would be a public relations nightmare. People would be dying because they couldn't afford your cure. You can bet your ass that as soon as a cure is found, the government will pay the money to make it available to every American afflicted with the disease.

Uninsured patients that are HIV positive still get the drug even if they can't afford it, and full blown AIDS patients hit medicare hard. The average health care cost of patients will full blown AIDS is $34,000 a year. And another incentive exists to get gay men healthy. They have the highest income of any demographic so they pay their share of taxes. We don't have enough tax payers as it is. It is a double whammy to lose high income earners at the peak of their tax paying potential and then have to turn around and pay a bunch of money on their medical care. Our economy would net a substantial windfall if a cure for AIDS is developed.

The United States has less than 1 million people that are HIV positive. That isn't a great deal of people in respect to our population. By contrast, 60 million Americans suffer from heartburn. Profit seeking companies have a much better gamble of carving out even a little bit of the heartburn health maintenance market than developing a cure for AIDS. The market may find a way on its own to finding a solution, but it sure as hell isn't a priority.

And in Africa, the market would certainly fail to provide. I don't know the stats, but I guess the average African makes less than $50 a month. That is $600 a year (just my guess), and they have to live their whole squalid third world subsistance ass lives on that pittance. They don't have the silver to cross your palms for the miracle cure. You wouldn't even be able to break even on the variable costs of production, shipping, and distribution of product.

I have babbled on far to long already.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2888098 - 07/13/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

JPZ said:

Also, it's not as if research isn't being carried out. They could use a fraction of the money being spent on defence, but AIDS isn't a priority right now. I have a feeling that this problem is going to rear up and bite us on the ass in the near future though.




Not a priority? The US government has spent over 100 billion on AIDS. That is more than every other government in the free world combined. AIDS spending has increased every year since 1981 when the disease first reared its ugly head. AIDS gets a disproportionate amount of funding compared to other deadly diseases, and AIDS is a PREVENTABLE disease. Incidentally, the best way to prevent AIDS is abstinance. PRAISE JESUS!

And don't you ever talk to Jesus Christ again about promoting religion.

My problem is that we have spent so much money and get little bang for the buck. Our government sucks at spending money. I should rephrase that. Our government is very good at spending money, but very poor at spending it effiently. I would offer a 10 billion dollar reward for the cure and then be done with it. Let the private market sort it out and do what is best, just give them a huge incentive to meet your goals.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2888159 - 07/14/04 12:18 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Ok.. BUT

If it's not the government's responsibility to halt the spread of AIDS, to control the education of people about AIDS, or as has been mentioned, to worry about AIDS in Africa in any way, then can someone explain to me how it's okay that the government is actively seeking to penalize African governments and charitable institutions who teach condom use as a method of controlling the spread of AIDS by denying any such government financial support of the US?

We can't have it both ways. I know all of the idealogical arguments about the way things would be if we lived in a perfect world, but we don't. Can we at least have the dignity as human beings to not help spread a killer virus through political and religio-political motivated inaction/reaction?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2888184 - 07/14/04 12:27 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


The US has been pursuing bilateral trade agreements expected to close the loophole allowed by the World Trade Organisation's agreement on drug patents last year. At Doha, it was agreed that poor countries in need of medicines could disregard the 20-year patents on new drugs owned by the multinational drug companies, most of which are based in the US.

The deal, completed at Cancun, lets poor countries buy cheap, generic copies of patented drugs from the makers, in India, Brazil and Thailand. Aids drugs were hugely expensive before such firms made their copies and brought the prices down from $10,000 (?5,400) a patient a year to under $300 (?162






from


www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1260695,00.html

(i cant get the link to work properly, just paste it...)


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 50 minutes
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: ]
    #2888196 - 07/14/04 12:32 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

How is a deadly plague that is killing millions of people, and is a bigger threat to "national security" than every single member of the "Axis of Evil" and every terrorist in the world combined not something the government should be doing something about?


--------------------
This space for rent

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2888229 - 07/14/04 12:44 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 50 minutes
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2888309 - 07/14/04 01:27 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

H.I.V. is a W.M.D. from G.O.D.


--------------------
This space for rent

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2888323 - 07/14/04 01:37 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I agree except for the God part...

:smile:


--------------------
I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2888353 - 07/14/04 01:56 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

LOL, I read "be faithful" as 'pray you will be O.K". didn't think of the other meaning.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Re: Bush Admins's Policy on AIDS etc [Re: JPZ]
    #2889250 - 07/14/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Why isn't dry humping on that list?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Senate Defies Bush, Turns Iraq Aid Into Loans Zahid 721 1 10/17/03 01:19 AM
by PsiloKitten
* Bush Admin to deny fuel economy bill. GabbaDjS 578 1 03/01/02 07:37 PM
by Ellis Dee
* "Bush is an idiot, but he was right about Saddam" EchoVortex 1,560 14 03/22/03 11:03 PM
by Xlea321
* My father crapped bigger ones than George Bush fft2 767 3 06/17/04 08:44 PM
by Anonymous
* Bush sneaks through more tax cuts for the rich during war
( 1 2 all )
EchoVortex 4,858 39 03/26/03 09:09 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Bush's campaign ad infidelGOD 436 0 12/01/03 01:01 PM
by infidelGOD
* The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies
( 1 2 3 all )
RonoS 4,995 49 06/12/02 07:15 PM
by Jammer
* Bush's Speech
( 1 2 3 all )
Senor_Doobie 4,285 40 09/22/02 06:59 PM
by Jammer

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,736 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.