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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Force and Deception [Re: BleaK]
    #2887962 - 07/13/04 11:16 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

capitalism creates an idol greater than that of humanity.



What does that statement mean? Humanity as a whole should be idolized?

Quote:

by creating a symbol that keeps one from directly aquiring what they need for life on their own. one must seek a dollor instead of a meal now.




My friend, you are out of your league. You need to maybe cut down on the Howard Stern listening and read up on some VERY simple economics. Most humans make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to acquire capital in some specialized field as opposed to subsistence farming because doing so almost ALWAYS dramatically increases the quality of said person's life. You must realize there is a REASON we moved from subsistence farming to the complex division of labor based system we have now and not vice-versa. Human life was harsh and rugged when all people did was struggle to survive. Capitalism(though I'd like to add 'money' developed WAY before the concept of capitalism was conceived) allows people to spend less time surviving and more time enjoying life.

Quote:

theres an inherint defect that allows producers of money to take advantage of consumers this way.



Producers of money? Are you referring to the organization that produces money(in the USA, the repugnant Federal Reserve...) or are you talking socialist and referring to the bourgeoisie that somehow takes advantage of the proletariat?

Quote:

now people must do whatever it takes to aquire money.



Are you mad that people have to work for money? You would have us all return to the horrible life of subsistence farming without giving it a second thought I am sure. I would like to remind you here, though maybe I should have done it before, NOTHING IS PREVENTING YOU FROM BECOMING A SUBSISTENCE FARMER...by all means go ahead. Just know there is a reason people do not willingly make such a decision.

Quote:

aquireing money can be done numerous ways, some destructive, some constructive, but the means are irrelivent when money is your only source of life.




Money is just a common denominator, nothing more, nothing less. Money allows us to forego the burdensome and incredibly unwieldy process of transfering one good directly for another good. I am a Candlestick maker and I desire a house so I go to the house maker and ask how many candlesticks he'll be needing for one house. The house maker laughs as he tells me that though eighteen thousand four hundred and eight candles is worth one colonial house, he has no need for that amount of candles. He goes on to tell me that he does need fifteen cattle, a new operating system and a computer to use said operating system on, and a box of ludens cough drops. I now must go to all of the producers of those items and attempt to trade with candlesticks. I hope no further elaboration of this analogy is neccesary. If you change your viewpoints in the near future I'd suggest bringing up such a story whenever someone says 'money is the root of all evil.'

Quote:

u must have it. or u die.



Money is(or is supposed to, fiat money is a totally different topic) represent property one owns that is desired(usually a precious metal: gold, silver, palladium, etc.) Humans must have property or they will die. Pinky, I believe, elaborated upon this in a topic several months back regarding natural rights. If neccesary I will either dig it up or summarize it myself. The subsistence farmer's whole life is devoted to the property neccesary to survive. The restaurant owner however must allocate only a portion of his energy towards survival and the rest can be directed towards the pursuit of happiness(I hope you recognize those last few words from somewhere).

Quote:

but competiting for money has led people to create things like ciggarettes!.. hmm causes health problems $$ for docters/drug companies. theyre majorly addictive , $$ for cigg companies..




So?

Quote:

if its legal for cigg companies to poison/enslave people, its legal for pepsi co and nabisco.. so why wouldnt they?




Are they initating force against anyone? People have the choice whether or not to smoke ciggarettes just the same as people have the choice whether or not to hurl themselves off a tall bridge. The choice is theirs and theirs alone.

Quote:

money has lead people away from humanity and drawn them towards gultony and selfishness.




How do you define humanity? Do you believe the pursuit of happiness for yourself and the ones you love to be selfish and glutonous? Do you believe Mr. Brown's six year old daughter would be more or less happy waking up at four in the morning to milk the families cows as opposed to the shithole lifestyle her selfish capitalist pig of a father provides for her that allows her to wake up at eight in the morning and jump in the family swimming pool?

Look foward to your replies.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Force and Deception [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2888066 - 07/13/04 11:50 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

capitalism creates an idol greater than that of humanity.



What does that statement mean? Humanity as a whole should be idolized?

Quote:

yes the human body and connection to all other life.




Quote:

by creating a symbol that keeps one from directly aquiring what they need for life on their own. one must seek a dollor instead of a meal now.




My friend, you are out of your league. You need to maybe cut down on the Howard Stern listening and read up on some VERY simple economics. Most humans make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to acquire capital in some specialized field as opposed to subsistence farming because doing so almost ALWAYS dramatically increases the quality of said person's life. You must realize there is a REASON we moved from subsistence farming to the complex division of labor based system we have now and not vice-versa. Human life was harsh and rugged when all people did was struggle to survive. Capitalism(though I'd like to add 'money' developed WAY before the concept of capitalism was conceived) allows people to spend less time surviving and more time enjoying life.

Quote:

where can i go to obstain from capitalism and how do i get there without money? and. where do i go when capitalism comes for me.. i know it fuckin grows... mcdonalds didnt used to be everywhere




Quote:

theres an inherint defect that allows producers of money to take advantage of consumers this way.



Producers of money? Are you referring to the organization that produces money(in the USA, the repugnant Federal Reserve...) or are you talking socialist and referring to the bourgeoisie that somehow takes advantage of the proletariat?

Quote:

i am talkin about the federal reserve




Quote:

now people must do whatever it takes to aquire money.



Are you mad that people have to work for money? You would have us all return to the horrible life of subsistence farming without giving it a second thought I am sure. I would like to remind you here, though maybe I should have done it before, NOTHING IS PREVENTING YOU FROM BECOMING A SUBSISTENCE FARMER...by all means go ahead. Just know there is a reason people do not willingly make such a decision.

Quote:

the fact that we live in a state of private property prevents me.




Quote:

aquireing money can be done numerous ways, some destructive, some constructive, but the means are irrelivent when money is your only source of life.




Money is just a common denominator, nothing more, nothing less. Money allows us to forego the burdensome and incredibly unwieldy process of transfering one good directly for another good. I am a Candlestick maker and I desire a house so I go to the house maker and ask how many candlesticks he'll be needing for one house. The house maker laughs as he tells me that though eighteen thousand four hundred and eight candles is worth one colonial house, he has no need for that amount of candles. He goes on to tell me that he does need fifteen cattle, a new operating system and a computer to use said operating system on, and a box of ludens cough drops. I now must go to all of the producers of those items and attempt to trade with candlesticks. I hope no further elaboration of this analogy is neccesary. If you change your viewpoints in the near future I'd suggest bringing up such a story whenever someone says 'money is the root of all evil.'

Quote:

alternativly i could build my own home.




Quote:

u must have it. or u die.



Money is(or is supposed to, fiat money is a totally different topic) represent property one owns that is desired(usually a precious metal: gold, silver, palladium, etc.) Humans must have property or they will die. Pinky, I believe, elaborated upon this in a topic several months back regarding natural rights. If neccesary I will either dig it up or summarize it myself. The subsistence farmer's whole life is devoted to the property neccesary to survive. The restaurant owner however must allocate only a portion of his energy towards survival and the rest can be directed towards the pursuit of happiness(I hope you recognize those last few words from somewhere).

Quote:

id like to hear what u have to say about fiat money, im glad to see someone else who even knows the term.




Quote:

but competiting for money has led people to create things like ciggarettes!.. hmm causes health problems $$ for docters/drug companies. theyre majorly addictive , $$ for cigg companies..




So?
Quote:

so i dont like products that cause pain.




Quote:

if its legal for cigg companies to poison/enslave people, its legal for pepsi co and nabisco.. so why wouldnt they?




Are they initating force against anyone? People have the choice whether or not to smoke ciggarettes just the same as people have the choice whether or not to hurl themselves off a tall bridge. The choice is theirs and theirs alone.

Quote:

people do have the choice but alot of effort is spent lying to people in order to get them to make the wrong choice. arent u glad we have the free time/money to pursue thiings like that?




Quote:

money has lead people away from humanity and drawn them towards gultony and selfishness.




How do you define humanity? Do you believe the pursuit of happiness for yourself and the ones you love to be selfish and glutonous? Do you believe Mr. Brown's six year old daughter would be more or less happy waking up at four in the morning to milk the families cows as opposed to the shithole lifestyle her selfish capitalist pig of a father provides for her that allows her to wake up at eight in the morning and jump in the family swimming pool?

Quote:

i think she would be happier milking cows. i know i would.
i would probly milk goats tho just for the record.




Look foward to your replies.




i hope that wasnt to hard to read, i put the re-replys in quoted italics...


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Edited by BleaK (07/13/04 11:51 PM)

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Force and Deception [Re: voice]
    #2888091 - 07/13/04 11:58 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think the problem started in the 19th century when the supreme court ruled that a corporation has the same rights as a human being. The Bill of Rights now applies to a corporation, as if it were a natural person. Big problems. Now it's completely legal for Coke, Marlboro, etc to LIE TO US under first amendment rights ... and so on, and so on. Don't confuse a free market with personal freedom. A corporate entity is not a person. And the fact that it is considered such in this country could possibly be the main reason why our country has become so utterly corrupted ...





this I can agree with completely. the advent of the corporation is one kind of communism I most definitely do not support. I try to do most of my business with sole proprietorships whenever possible. Even if the price is higher, I would rather support the small independant businessman.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2888128 - 07/14/04 12:05 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
It wasn't lame at all.  I think the soda industry is very similar to the tobacco industry...



It was very lame.  I seriously doubt that any marketing executives say such things even remotely like your anti-capitalist fantasy, "OK, our product is toxic and unhealthy. It destroys teeth and contains too much sugar and artificial chemicals to be even remotely nutritious. But we dont have to tell people that. We'll just spend millions of dollars designing marketing campaigns based in psychological research, and a statistically significant number of people will be compelled to buy our product for no logical reason."  I repeat, lame.

Quote:

My grandparents smoked like chimneys because they didnt realize how bad it was for them.



When were they born?  When did they find out?  People have known for generations that smoking isn't good.

Quote:

My generation grew up on coca cola.  We drank that shit like water when we were growing up because we didnt know any better.



Really?  I'm 43 and my mother told me since I was a little kid about sweets and acidic foods and good oral hygiene.  People your age are fucked up because their parents didn't teach them well.

Quote:

But it would be hard to quit because that shit is fucking addictive.



So your weak will and inability to control yourself is the fault of marketing execs?

Quote:

All I'm really asking for is stringent standards for truth in advertising.



If the cola companies have commited fraud then they should be punished.  Do you have proof that they have lied?

Quote:

with my fucked up teeth and stomach, I see my relationship with coca-cola as very much like being on the bad end of a deal with the devil.  They promised a sweet taste in my mouth, but they didnt tell me about the pain and expense it would cost me later.



:crymeariver:
 
Quote:

... I think that the seller of products has an obligation to presnt the customer with enough information to make their choice wisely.



Then only buy products from sellers that fulfill your criteria.

Quote:

Which doesnt happen very much outside of libertarian fantasy land, where everyone is honest and things run perfectly.



That's the statist fantasy land.  No libertarians that I know of have ever promised utopia.

Quote:

But I think you overestimate the average consumer.



You are wrong, I don't overestimate, but I don't think of everyone as children which I or the government should make decisions for either.

Quote:

The average consumer isnt going to go out of their way to get the exact specs of a product and comparison shop.  The average person is going to trust the word of misleading advertisments or crooked salesmen.



Life is tough, get a helmet.. or caveat emptor.

Quote:

emotions are powerful forces which drive human behavior, and those who would seek to manipulate human emotions for their own gain are scurvy dogs who have forgotten the face of their fathers, IMO.  That includes used car salesman who use psychological tactics to trick dumb people into getting in way over their heads.  This includes marketing firms who play up the advantages of their product while giving no acknowledgement to its defects.  And this includes George W Bush's campaign, which has at least two PhD's in Social Psychology in its leadership.



It's still not initiation of force.  Stupid people are going to vote for John Kerry as well as GWB, what should we do to protect them from the folly of those decisions?

Quote:

but their emotions have been intentionally tweaked by the seller...  Marketing and psychological reasearch are great powers, and corporations should be held responsible for wielding them the same way police are responsible for wielding guns.



It's still not initiation of force, to equate marketing to police officers weilding guns is pretty silly stretch.  Everyone is free not to buy things.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Force and Deception [Re: Evolving]
    #2888213 - 07/14/04 12:40 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It was very lame. I seriously doubt that any marketing executives say such things even remotely like your anti-capitalist fantasy




maybe not phrased that same way, but I'm sure they know their product is unhealthy and yet they continue not only to sell it (which I really have no objection to), but they actually push it on people without telling them how harmful it is (which I do object to).

Quote:

Really? I'm 43 and my mother told me since I was a little kid about sweets and acidic foods and good oral hygiene. People your age are fucked up because their parents didn't teach them well.





people my age are a product of their environment and their experiences, both of which have been polluted by advertising and deceptive media. Don't blame me for having to live in the world you built before I got here. and dont even try to compare the amount and effectiveness of the advertising when you were young to the advertising they have now.

besides, my parents just let me eat what they liked to eat. Was it my fault that maybe their choices weren't the wisest? I guess my parents have a little too much faith in the old implied warranty of merchantability. Most people from your generation seem to share that tendancy.

Quote:

So your weak will and inability to control yourself is the fault of marketing execs?




Dude, calling me weak willed is a very personal insult. I have demonstrated my strength of will to the people who know me IRL repeatedly and do not appreciate having it questioned here.

do you think that a child is capable of reading and understanding nutrirional info? Do you think a child is capable of understanding that caffiene is an addictive drug? Why are you supporting the fact that unhealthy, addictive substances are being marketed to children? Now consider the fact that many adults make these same mistakes as well. I honestly believed that people would make much better decisions if they simply had the straight objective dope on the products that they were buying. And I believe that info should come from the manufactureer, and they should be held accountable for its truth.

Now that I know about exactly how bad cola is (much like smoking in the 30's we've known it was bad for awhile, but we are just now beginning to realize the great extent of its badness), I drink only a fraction of the soda I used to, and take more preventative measures like using mouthwash several times a day and brushing at lunchtime. But drinking cola is something I've been doing since age 3 or 4, and yes, it would be difficult for me or anyone else in my position to quit entirely. if you drink coffee, try gving it up for a week and see how you feel.

Quote:

If the cola companies have commited fraud then they should be punished. Do you have proof that they have lied?





they havent lied, they just dont tell the full story. And not telling the full story is considered acceptable in advertising because it is assumed that the average consumer will take it upon themselves to get the full story via their own initiative, because doing so is in their best interest. The truth is, this rarely happens, and the result has been a lot of innocent people suffering, and a lot of sleazy people getting rich off of it.

Quote:

It's still not initiation of force. Stupid people are going to vote for John Kerry as well as GWB, what should we do to protect them from the folly of those decisions?





If only I knew. Its always been my belief that the majority of humanity's problems are psychological in nature. I only hope we'll be able to make progress in our understanding enough to end some of the suffering that is happening in the world.

Quote:

It's still not initiation of force, to equate marketing to police officers weilding guns is pretty silly stretch. Everyone is free not to buy things.




I believe it is force, just a different kind than physical force. As humans we are subject to more than just physical laws. We are not inert objects whose only capabilities are to be manipulated by force. We have mental emotional dimensions and forces can be applied to those as well. Capitalism might defend the fruits of my labor, but how will it defend my psyche which decides what to do with those fruits? How can you devote all this energy to defending the fruits, while leaving the tree unguarded?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2890807 - 07/14/04 05:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't at any point call you a fascist. Didn't use the word at all. Only you did. I, frankly, can't believe you have continued this line of thought. I would have thought that you would have capitulated in the face of overwhelming logic long ago. You just keep digging a deeper hole. And you really should lose that title.


--------------------

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