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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Force and Deception
    #2886841 - 07/13/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If I were forced to buy a certain product, most libertarians on this board would agree that that isn't right.

But why is it that libertarians seem to have no problem with people being manipulated into buying products they dont really need by persuasive advertising which is specifically designed to take advantage of well-documented human cognitive defecits?

I mean, when the marketing directors of coca cola sit down and say: "OK, our product is toxic and unhealthy. It destroys teeth and contains too much sugar and artificial chemicals to be even remotely nutritious. But we dont have to tell people that. We'll just spend millions of dollars designing marketing campaigns based in psychological research, and a statistically significant number of people will be compelled to buy our product for no logical reason."

How the fuck is that not an initiation of force?

Not all warfare is guns and bullets. There is such a thing as psychological warfare, and the more we learn about the basic psychological makeup all humans share, the more usefull psychological tactics will be in controlling the populace. Imagine a world government where intense feelings were the mechanism of control, not guns or bombs!!! I think we are on the verge of this now.

again, it all comes down to the errors in the individual's judgement. Sometimes these errors can be provoked by forces from outside the individual. Not guns or bombs, but words, music, and pretty pictures.

so where do you draw the line? Can you really say that the individual has freedom of choice in the matter of whether or not to buy something, when the company selling that product has spent millions in marketing research and deceptive advertising, trying everthing it can to compell that person to buy that product for reasons that arent even logical, and may not even be in that individual's best interest?

Is psychological manipulation not an initiation of force? Those who argue that it isnt, I would say, are underestimating the impact of these tactics on the common person, and possibly underestimating their impact upon themselves as well.

would capitalism even work if it werent for human gullibility? I doubt it.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,746
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2886878 - 07/13/04 06:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If I were forced to buy a certain product, most libertarians on this board would agree that that isn't right.



Correct.


Quote:

But why is it that libertarians seem to have no problem with people being manipulated into buying products they dont really need by persuasive advertising which is specifically designed to take advantage of well-documented human cognitive defecits?



People want things. People enjoy soda.


Quote:

How the fuck is that not an initiation of force?


Clever marketing is in no way equal to force.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2886908 - 07/13/04 06:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Are you saying Fahrenheit 911 should be, gasp, banned?


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2886921 - 07/13/04 06:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i think the problem is more about poor education from govt schools.
schools should teach kids about the evils of capitalism.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: BleaK]
    #2886928 - 07/13/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i think the problem is more about poor education from govt schools.
schools should teach kids about the evils of capitalism.



What the fuck? Public schools are so left-leaning it's insane.

What evils of capitalism are you talking about? It's been too long since the libertarians on this board had fresh meat to tear up. Please list every single one of your grievances with capitalism.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2886943 - 07/13/04 06:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Are you saying Fahrenheit 911 should be, gasp, banned?




I think Fahrenheit 911 is a good example of fighting fire with fire.

It would be nice to live in a world where movies like Fahrenheit 911 were not necessary to balance out the blabber of conservative demagogues like Rush Limbaugh. It would be nice to live in a world where people talked straight and thought straight. But it appears that neither side wants this to happen, because it would cost them the power that hate and fear of the enemy has given them.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2886960 - 07/13/04 07:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Clever marketing is in no way equal to force.




perhaps you will disagree with your own statement when government propaganda convinces people to give up all their rights.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2886962 - 07/13/04 07:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So it would be nice to live in a world where people are not allowed to speak their opinion? In your opinion of course.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2886965 - 07/13/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

could you please try to refute my arguements without putting words in my mouth? thank you.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2886966 - 07/13/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"I take control" indeed.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2886984 - 07/13/04 07:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

you can imply that I'm a fascist all you want.

I am a centrist who reserves the right to adopt the position of either extreme of the political spectrum, should the situation call for it.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2887008 - 07/13/04 07:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I just asked a question. It seems to me that you were saying the world would be a better place if dissembling assholes like Rush (in your opinion) were silenced, along with dissembling assholes like Moore (in your opinion), and that the advertising industry should be eliminated, and probably anyone else whose position or style you don't like. As I said, "I TAKE CONTROL" indeed. This form of rhetoric is called reductio ad absurbum and it didn't take long for me to get there with this particular position of yours.

I do not disagree with your distaste for being manipulated but, no, I don't think it is an initiation of force to do market studies and such to determine effective marketing strategies. At all. This kind of thinking is big brotherish in the same way that the government prohibition of drugs is. You can easily protect yourself with skepticism and research. If you're too lazy then shut-up and go with the flow. Capitalism exists entirely outside of marketing. Marketing is merely a means to greater success within the system of capitalism. You can forbid marketing and research and capitalism will still march on.


--------------------


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2887039 - 07/13/04 07:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

i think the problem is more about poor education from govt schools.
schools should teach kids about the evils of capitalism.



What the fuck? Public schools are so left-leaning it's insane.

What evils of capitalism are you talking about? It's been too long since the libertarians on this board had fresh meat to tear up. Please list every single one of your grievances with capitalism.




that will take a lil while. im going to play some music, will think about it and get back to u tonight.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2887051 - 07/13/04 07:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
If I were forced to buy a certain product, most libertarians on this board would agree that that isn't right.



Yes.

Quote:

But why is it that libertarians seem to have no problem with people being manipulated into buying products they dont really need by persuasive advertising which is specifically designed to take advantage of well-documented human cognitive defecits?



People should be free to make their own decisions. The cognitive defect is in those who think they are in a better position to tell other adults what to do or they know better how to protect others from the follies of their own actions.

Quote:

I mean, when the marketing directors of coca cola sit down and say: "OK, our product is toxic and unhealthy. It destroys teeth and contains too much sugar and artificial chemicals to be even remotely nutritious. But we dont have to tell people that. We'll just spend millions of dollars designing marketing campaigns based in psychological research, and a statistically significant number of people will be compelled to buy our product for no logical reason."



That's pretty lame. They're selling something that they think people LIKE. If they didn't think the customers liked it they would reformulate it or try to create a new beverage. So what if they spend big bucks on market research? It doesn't always pay off. Do you have any idea how many new products flop even with massive market research? If the customers don't like something, they won't continue to buy it. Are you old enough to remember 'new coke?'

Quote:

How the fuck is that not an initiation of force?



How is it an initiation of force? You have to be pretty stupid to think that persuasion without out a threat of force or actual initiation of force is initiation of force.

Quote:

Not all warfare is guns and bullets.



Sure, there are swords, tanks, bombs...

Quote:

Can you really say that the individual has freedom of choice in the matter of whether or not to buy something, when the company selling that product has spent millions in marketing research and deceptive advertising, trying everthing it can to compell that person to buy that product for reasons that arent even logical, and may not even be in that individual's best interest?



Yes, because the person is free not to buy. I don't buy many things and I'm sure that you don't either. Why does something have to fall under YOUR definition of their best interest? That sure is a high horse you're on, should we make you wear a helmet? Sometimes, people do somethings just because they like to - no one gets out of here alive, there is no perfect safety, to each his own.

Quote:

would capitalism even work if it werent for human gullibility?



Yes it would. I buy things all the time, not out of gullibility but because it is more efficient to utilize the specialization of those who are more adept at creating certain things than I am. Should I create my own CPU, or should I buy it from Intel? Should I operate on my own appendix or should I get someone who's trained and knowledgable in the procedure? Should I accumulate capital to buy a house or should I wait for one to drop from the sky and set itself up on some property?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2887079 - 07/13/04 07:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If I were forced to buy a certain product, most libertarians on this board would agree that that isn't right.

absolutely. it also wouldn't be right if you were decieved into buying it. if you were persuaded on the other hand, even through techniques which, though honest, took full advantage of your psychological desires, then that would be fine.

so where do you draw the line?

force or fraud. i live in the united states. i have been surrounded by mass media my whole life. i was raised on junkfood, video games, and television. no one makes me participate in any of this, and that is fine. i haven't eaten fastfood in years. i don't drink soda. the only tv i watch is a couple hours of comedy central and the history channel per week. i exersice. there is a choice, and it hasn't been undermined through force or deception. if some people are not wise enough to make what *you* feel is the correct one, that's no justification for playing nanny.

what exactly are you proposing here?

a state that controls what people may buy or sell "for their own good"? one that censors advertizing?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2887718 - 07/13/04 11:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It seems to me that you were saying the world would be a better place if dissembling assholes like Rush (in your opinion) were silenced, along with dissembling assholes like Moore (in your opinion), and that the advertising industry should be eliminated, and probably anyone else whose position or style you don't like.




In other words, if I'm not a libertarian purist, then I must be a fascist by default. Nice little line you've drawn in the sand there.

it might interest you to know that I happen to think that the state run education system is a big part of this problem. I wouldnt advocate abolishing it entirely, but I do think the way the system is run (and especially the curriculum) should be changed radically.

But I'm not trying to argue against freedom of speech here, I'm trying to argue against freedom of deception. I think a lot of libertarians are unwilling to admit when deception has occurred.

Quote:

This kind of thinking is big brotherish in the same way that the government prohibition of drugs is




that just doesnt even compare. I'm not saying that people shouldnt be able to buy coca cola. I'm only saying that people should be made to understand how unhealthy it is before making the choice to consume it.

Quote:

Capitalism exists entirely outside of marketing.




sure you can have capitalism without marketing, but its not very probable. marketing naturally follows from capitalism and soon becomes an integral part of it. At this point I think that the existence of marketing has raised the bar to the point where it necesitates its own existence. businesses cant succeed in todays market without advertising. Its like a drug we've become hooked on.

Quote:

Marketing is merely a means to greater success within the system of capitalism.




I would say its a pretty sleazy means to say the least. We're talking about a concentrated attempt to manipulate people's minds at a level that is above most people's comprehension.

Quote:

You can forbid marketing and research and capitalism will still march on.




Oh it would still march on, but I dont think it would be as easy for one person to get rich, unless their products were actually better than the competition's.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: Force and Deception [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2887731 - 07/14/04 12:03 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm only saying that people should be made to understand how unhealthy it is before making the choice to consume it.

the nutrition information and list of ingredients is on every can. what more do you want?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: Evolving]
    #2887816 - 07/14/04 12:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

That's pretty lame. They're selling something that they think people LIKE. If they didn't think the customers liked it they would reformulate it or try to create a new beverage. So what if they spend big bucks on market research? It doesn't always pay off. Do you have any idea how many new products flop even with massive market research? If the customers don't like something, they won't continue to buy it. Are you old enough to remember 'new coke?'





It wasn't lame at all. I think the soda industry is very similar to the tobacco industry, in that they have been marketing an unhealthy product for several decades and people are just now beginning to realize how bad it is for them. My grandparents smoked like chimneys because they didnt realize how bad it was for them. My grandfather died of heart problems and my grandmother died of emphysema. The second it became common knowledge that smoking was bad for you they quit, but by then they had already been smoking for several decades.

My generation grew up on coca cola. We drank that shit like water when we were growing up because we didnt know any better. And now we all have fucked up teeth. Everyone I know thats my age has fucked up teeth, even though most of my friends are upper middle class civilized folks who brush and floss every day.

ever since my teeth started falling apart a few years ago, I've been drinking a lot less coke. But it would be hard to quit because that shit is fucking addictive. I've been drinkin it for so long I'm used to it; if I dont have one a day I'm useless.

now if I had known about the damage it would do to my teeth, the lining in my stomach, and the fact that it was addictive, I would not have consumed nearly as much of it. Even at six years old, if someone had told me that I would eventually have to pay enough money to buy 2,000 GI Joes just to fix the damage that shit would eventually do to my teeth, I garuntee you I would have quit right then and there.

When they have commercials for prescription drugs on TV, they have to list the side effects. But they dont tell you on coca cola commercials that if you drink more than a couple every day you'll eventually have $10,000 worth of damage to your teeth, even though its the truth, and I have seen MANY cases that illustrate this fact. Because if they said that shit, people wouldn't buy it.

All I'm really asking for is stringent standards for truth in advertising. What is this product, what can it do for me, what are the downsides. Thats all I ask.

with my fucked up teeth and stomach, I see my relationship with coca-cola as very much like being on the bad end of a deal with the devil. They promised a sweet taste in my mouth, but they didnt tell me about the pain and expense it would cost me later.

Quote:

People should be free to make their own decisions.




sure, but I think that the seller of products has an obligation to presnt the customer with enough information to make their choice wisely. Which doesnt happen very much outside of libertarian fantasy land, where everyone is honest and things run perfectly.

Quote:

Yes it would. I buy things all the time, not out of gullibility but because it is more efficient to utilize the specialization of those who are more adept at creating certain things than I am.




I understand that fully and heartily agree. But I think you overestimate the average consumer. The average consumer isnt going to go out of their way to get the exact specs of a product and comparison shop. The average person is going to trust the word of misleading advertisments or crooked salesmen. Should these people be allowed to conduct their snake oil businesses under the guise of free enterprise?

Quote:

How is it an initiation of force? You have to be pretty stupid to think that persuasion without out a threat of force or actual initiation of force is initiation of force.





emotions are powerful forces which drive human behavior, and those who would seek to manipulate human emotions for their own gain are scurvy dogs who have forgotten the face of their fathers, IMO. That includes used car salesman who use psychological tactics to trick dumb people into getting in way over their heads. This includes marketing firms who play up the advantages of their product while giving no acknowledgement to its defects. And this includes George W Bush's campaign, which has at least two PhD's in Social Psychology in its leadership.

Quote:

Sure, there are swords, tanks, bombs...




propaganda leaflets, radio free america, fox news...

Quote:

Yes, because the person is free not to buy.




but their emotions have been intentionally tweaked by the seller of said product in order to maximize the probability that they will buy it instead of the competition, or nothing at all. Its not exactly a gun to the head, but sometimes marketing can be even more powerfull than that. can you dig it? Thats what I believe: psychological tactics are more effective in population control than threats of violence, at least when it comes to some things. Marketing and psychological reasearch are great powers, and corporations should be held responsible for wielding them the same way police are responsible for wielding guns.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: BleaK]
    #2887825 - 07/14/04 12:32 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

i think the problem is more about poor education from govt schools.
schools should teach kids about the evils of capitalism.



What the fuck? Public schools are so left-leaning it's insane.

What evils of capitalism are you talking about? It's been too long since the libertarians on this board had fresh meat to tear up. Please list every single one of your grievances with capitalism.




that will take a lil while. im going to play some music, will think about it and get back to u tonight.




capitalism creates an idol greater than that of humanity. by creating a symbol that keeps one from directly aquiring what they need for life on their own. one must seek a dollor instead of a meal now.

theres an inherint defect that allows producers of money to take advantage of consumers this way. now people must do whatever it takes to aquire money. aquireing money can be done numerous ways, some destructive, some constructive, but the means are irrelivent when money is your only source of life.

u must have it. or u die.

with so many people in the world now, theres bound to be competition for money.
just the same if there wasnt money, there would be competition for space and food.

but competiting for money has led people to create things like ciggarettes!.. hmm causes health problems $$ for docters/drug companies. theyre majorly addictive , $$ for cigg companies..

if its legal for cigg companies to poison/enslave people, its legal for pepsi co and nabisco.. so why wouldnt they?

money has lead people away from humanity and drawn them towards gultony and selfishness.

bassicaly created a false idol..

worship none but thy self and thy brothers and sisters ...


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (07/14/04 12:34 AM)


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Offlinevoice
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Re: Force and Deception [Re: BleaK]
    #2887892 - 07/14/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting arguements on all sides ... here's the thing: Capitalism is fine. it's natural. It's been practiced for thousands of years. But it is a game. A game needs to be regulated. Or else you have nothing but a game of tackle basketball where anything goes. There are big, big, BIG problems with capitalism. Most can be attributed to human nature. (GREED).

I think the problem started in the 19th century when the supreme court ruled that a corporation has the same rights as a human being. The Bill of Rights now applies to a corporation, as if it were a natural person. Big problems. Now it's completely legal for Coke, Marlboro, etc to LIE TO US under first amendment rights ... and so on, and so on. Don't confuse a free market with personal freedom. A corporate entity is not a person. And the fact that it is considered such in this country could possibly be the main reason why our country has become so utterly corrupted ...


--------------------
beliefs are substitutes for knowledge

www.voistradaumus.com


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