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OfflineEarShot
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Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) * 2
    #28856409 - 07/15/24 03:34 PM (5 months, 30 days ago)

Howdy fellow shroomers,

I'm wanting to grow again, but I see the landscape has changed a lot since I last looked, so I'd like to spell out where I'm at skill wise, and ask what's suitable for me.

I grew B+ and some other strain I can't remember around 20 years ago from spores (thanks Mr Cactus) to WBS in jars, and then used the Bulk Neglect technique from this very site, spawning straw in bin liners in cardboard boxes, which I then opened up as fruiting chambers. I supplied my whole university from that.

I repeated this about 8 years ago, also with B+. The straw didn't work, so all from cased grain, mostly in my guerrilla box method to hide them from house guests. Again, great yields.

I thought I was very good at this, as most other people I know who tried to grow failed, but that was just me on the first run of the Dunning Kruger graph. I tried again with Golden Teacher, with the aim of getting set up so that I could teach others my technique, and was taught humility instead as I got about 9 shrooms out of two dozen jars.

Now I'd like to have another go, but I see that people use unicorn bags rather than jars, there's a thousand people selling ready sterilised grain, there are new strains, people use horse poop pellets etc...

So what has changed? What would you recommend for someone at my skill level? I'm interested in Z strain, but have GT and B+ spore prints. WBS is cheap where I am. Would like a small but productive setup. Planning to dub tub as I have tons of medium sized tubs.

Oh and I have a Hawkins Big Boy pressure cookers which doesn't state the PSI, so not very professional, and doesn't have anything inside it to stop bags from touching the sides - I take it that means I need to stick to jars?

Attaching a picture from my grow 8 years ago of B+ on WBS, cased in a mug (I'm aware these are not big, they grew much bigger, but it's a nice photo).




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Invisiblenotthatsorry
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot] * 1
    #28856467 - 07/15/24 03:56 PM (5 months, 30 days ago)

For a short answer:

In general, for cubensis, most folks are using grain jars spawned to plain, unsupplemented coco coir in plastic tubs of various sizes.

The consensus is against buying presterilized grain, mostly due to reliability.

As for strains and again for cubensis, unless it's an albino or other mutation (Penis Envy/Enigma) they're all going to be about the same in terms of difficulty. Pick whatever resonates with you.

For a longer answer:

Beef has pretty well codified modern best practices in the Hitchhikers Guide: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28501530

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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: notthatsorry] * 2
    #28856528 - 07/15/24 04:25 PM (5 months, 30 days ago)

Thank you :heart:
I will go digest that guide slowly but thoroughly like a good saprophyte.


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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot]
    #28858838 - 07/16/24 07:37 AM (5 months, 29 days ago)

So after reading the Hitch Hiker's Guide my take on why I had a mixed bag of success, should it be useful to others, is that:

My first grow with spore to grain worked because I inoculated a decent number of jars, so inevitably some were contamination free. I did a fair bit of grain to grain transfer and even cloning after that with good success, but I mistakenly left that experience thinking spore to grain worked fine.

My 2nd grow I now remember was by clone from a single shroom obtained from a friend, I cut out a piece of inner stem, transferred to a liquid with God knows what nutrients added, and did liquid injections into the grain jars, with low contamination.

My 3rd grow, which I did with spore to grain failed with high contamination rates, likely due to:

  • the spore print being contaminated, which they apparently tend to be (I always wondered how they could not be, and why injecting direct to grain worked so well, which obviously it doesn't).
  • my WBS having too many burst kernels - I thought that was inevitable and that it made no difference as everything it sterile. However home pressure cooking does not *really* sterilise. I'll learn to hydrate my grains properly.


I'm going to use agar with the spores I have before inoculating any grain.

In terms of what has changed, the main thing seems to be that rather than dump grain/bulk in the tub and then apply a layer of casing on top, we tend to mix the grain in coir and dump that in the tub, optionally with a layer of coir on top as a sort of casing.

I'm guessing this works well because the grain is suspended in a bed of substrate which holds moisture and is breathable, and possibly absorbs waste? I remember thinking it didn't feel right having a block of mycelium sitting at the bottom of a plastic tub stewing in its own waste.

I'm sceptical about pinning on coir and TMC (of which I have a 20 year old copy) goes on at length about PH, but it seems to work for others so I will give that a try.

Another point I not is that people are using small tubs, as opposed to very large ones with bulk substrate, which I thought were better for yield. But I have a plethora of small-mid sized tubs, so I'm just going to use those.


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot]
    #28858840 - 07/16/24 07:39 AM (5 months, 29 days ago)

If your tub is a block of mycelium stewing in its own waste then you have made many mistakes getting there.

The coir hydrates the fruiting mycelium but you can also fruit directly off of grain.

There's no stewing in waste, you focus on axenic spawn and add coir to make a clean fruiting tub.

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OfflinePnin
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: DERRAYLD] * 1
    #28858847 - 07/16/24 07:44 AM (5 months, 29 days ago)

Stewing in waste is how I prefer to spend my evenings.


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Invisiblenotthatsorry
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot]
    #28859315 - 07/16/24 12:25 PM (5 months, 29 days ago)

I think tub size mostly comes down to preference and that yields per quart of spawn are more or less consistent despite the size of the tub.

I definitely prefer smaller tubs, personally.
You can get the same yields from multiple smaller tubs as from a single large tub, but without having all your eggs in on basket.
I also like them for phenotype hunting. You can run several small tubs at once, all with different cultures, in the same space as one large tub.

Plenty of folks still use the big 66 quart monotubs though. The mush don't seem to care, so long as you're doing the work to keep their conditions consistent and in their preferred range.

Regarding pH, my experience suggests cubes at least, are plenty happy in unsupplemented coir. It's usually pretty close to neutral, and even at its most acidic it's still within the range cubes tolerate.

You're plan sounds good to me. Good luck!

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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: Pnin] * 1
    #28859721 - 07/16/24 04:15 PM (5 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Pnin said:
Stewing in waste is how I prefer to spend my evenings.




It's not my preference but if I live long enough I probably won't have a choice. Hopefully nursing homes will have lil grow chambers in each room by then.


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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: notthatsorry]
    #28859733 - 07/16/24 04:21 PM (5 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

notthatsorry said:
I think tub size mostly comes down to preference and that yields per quart of spawn are more or less consistent despite the size of the tub.

I definitely prefer smaller tubs, personally.
You can get the same yields from multiple smaller tubs as from a single large tub, but without having all your eggs in on basket.
I also like them for phenotype hunting. You can run several small tubs at once, all with different cultures, in the same space as one large tub.

Plenty of folks still use the big 66 quart monotubs though. The mush don't seem to care, so long as you're doing the work to keep their conditions consistent and in their preferred range.

Regarding pH, my experience suggests cubes at least, are plenty happy in unsupplemented coir. It's usually pretty close to neutral, and even at its most acidic it's still within the range cubes tolerate.

You're plan sounds good to me. Good luck!




Thank you for confirming all that. I'm gathering all the bits from here and youtube (which I take with a far larger pinch of salt) but it's nice to have someone confirm.


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OfflineCocaineBuffet
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot] * 1
    #28861573 - 07/16/24 09:46 PM (5 months, 29 days ago)

Stay away from YT is an essential for avoiding misinformation. Stick to this forum

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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: CocaineBuffet]
    #28862441 - 07/17/24 03:19 AM (5 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

CocaineBuffet said:
Stay away from YT is an essential for avoiding misinformation. Stick to this forum




I think it's good for visually seeing people's set ups and ways of working. But yeah, last video I watched had several errors even I could spot, yet 3K likes.


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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot]
    #28863102 - 07/17/24 07:13 AM (5 months, 28 days ago)

I have another question which I'll ask here rather than start a new thread as we have some context (assuming that's preferred?)

I ordered 4 bags of 1.5kg pre-sterilised grain thinking I'd just inject spores and get growing fast (before learning what I learned here) and that's arriving today.

My pre-prepared agar dishes will arrive in a few days. The spore syringe I already have. I just found out my pressure cooker's safety valve is bust, which a) may explain why my last grow was all contaminated, b) shows I really need to check my equipment before use, and c) is a real bummer as I found out I have a ton of small PP5 tubs with lids from which I could have prepared brown rice petri dishes and have them inoculated today and got very excited.

I'd like to fast track at least some growth, hence why I bought the bags (I'm still building up a jar collection) but also don't want to leave the grain too long and loose it to contamination. I've read highly conflicting opinions on how long bags will keep.

So I'm thinking I will inoculate 2 bags from spore today, and leave 2 in the fridge until I have isolated something through agar or brown rice petri. If even one spore inoculated bag works, I could get fruit by the end of August. If not, that's no big loss.

The spore syringe contains Z strain and was allegedly prepared in a class 5 sterile environment, and it's 10cc so plenty to spare. The grain was autoclaved for 2.5hrs, and has good reviews. So there's a fair chance I could get lucky with spore to grain.

One detail is that the bags require an injection, so I'd need to do LC from my agar to inoculate the other two when the time comes, unless I can cut open a top corner in the bag to transfer a wedge and reseal by folding down and securing with a clip.

Does anyone see any gaping flaws with any of the above?

I also learned one other thing that's changed in the past 20 years, which is spawn temperature guidance. I was going with Stammet's 86F, but read on here that thermophilic bacteria becomes more of a problem as you step above 81F, and so the recommended temperature is 75-80F. That may be another point where I went wrong, as I had my jars in the boiler cupboard where it's in the upper 80's.

I'm still going to set up a space that keeps 80F on the dot because I have the kit for it and enjoy that side of things.


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: EarShot]
    #28863268 - 07/17/24 07:50 AM (5 months, 28 days ago)

You're right that higher temperatures can encourage contaminant growth and create various issues. Just FYI, the temperature range I fruit in is typically overnight lows in the high 50's, daytime highs of no more than 70 or so. And that can run even lower when there's a cold snap. Cubensis are not particularly picky about temperature range. It's always worth keeping in mind that the mycelium generates its own heat during the process of digestion, so whatever the room temperature is doesn't represent the temperature inside your fruiting vessels. Temperature and pH are probably the two things that a lot of new growers worry about unnecessarily. But I personally prefer to opt for slower growth rates. Things just get too out of hand for me in the summer, with or without significant contamination. I'd be absolutely miserable trying to fruit tubs at 80. Everything just happens too fast for my liking.

And on the subject of contamination, you should basically assume at this stage of your learning curve that there is contamination present in all of your cultures. Getting completely clean spawn and outrunning whatever is in the mix are two different things, and most people probably never get past the latter. If and when you finally approach truly axenic spawn, you'll see the difference. That shit is bulletproof. Can handle extreme conditions, will pump out multiple harvests, etc.

In this case, though it's generally ill-advised, I'd go ahead and inject some spore solution into those bags and put some on agar. Just because you already have the bags. You already know that it's gonna be a crapshoot. The typical boilerplate advice regarding spore syringes is to use them for PF tek. And by the way, making your own agar plates is not very difficult, and the pressure cooker you have now is likely more than adequate for that purpose. Because agar liquifies quite easily, the bar for sterilization is quite low. And you don't have to use disposable containers or proper petri dishes, just about any convenient and autoclavable vessel will do. Look into no-pour techniques, pasty plates, etc. Also, using spore syringes to inoculate agar can be kind of tricky. I prefer working with spore prints and an inoculating loop.

Liquid culture is pretty tricky, and not much better than spores to grain if you're not well-versed in its creation and don't have solid axenic cultures to draw from. One middle-ground option is to do multiple transfers until you feel that you have a good clean culture on agar, and then make a liquid inoculant by blending a piece of agar into sterilized water. The difference there is that you're not giving any potential contaminants a chance to grow in the liquid medium, and as soon as you have a plate you like you're off to the races.

Edited by B Traven (07/17/24 08:00 AM)

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OfflineEarShot
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Re: Return Of The Pin (or: what's changed in the last 20 years?) [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #28868735 - 07/18/24 09:54 AM (5 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
You're right that higher temperatures can encourage contaminant growth and create various issues. Just FYI, the temperature range I fruit in is typically overnight lows in the high 50's, daytime highs of no more than 70 or so. And that can run even lower when there's a cold snap. Cubensis are not particularly picky about temperature range. It's always worth keeping in mind that the mycelium generates its own heat during the process of digestion, so whatever the room temperature is doesn't represent the temperature inside your fruiting vessels. Temperature and pH are probably the two things that a lot of new growers worry about unnecessarily. But I personally prefer to opt for slower growth rates. Things just get too out of hand for me in the summer, with or without significant contamination. I'd be absolutely miserable trying to fruit tubs at 80. Everything just happens too fast for my liking.

And on the subject of contamination, you should basically assume at this stage of your learning curve that there is contamination present in all of your cultures. Getting completely clean spawn and outrunning whatever is in the mix are two different things, and most people probably never get past the latter. If and when you finally approach truly axenic spawn, you'll see the difference. That shit is bulletproof. Can handle extreme conditions, will pump out multiple harvests, etc.

In this case, though it's generally ill-advised, I'd go ahead and inject some spore solution into those bags and put some on agar. Just because you already have the bags. You already know that it's gonna be a crapshoot. The typical boilerplate advice regarding spore syringes is to use them for PF tek. And by the way, making your own agar plates is not very difficult, and the pressure cooker you have now is likely more than adequate for that purpose. Because agar liquifies quite easily, the bar for sterilization is quite low. And you don't have to use disposable containers or proper petri dishes, just about any convenient and autoclavable vessel will do. Look into no-pour techniques, pasty plates, etc. Also, using spore syringes to inoculate agar can be kind of tricky. I prefer working with spore prints and an inoculating loop.

Liquid culture is pretty tricky, and not much better than spores to grain if you're not well-versed in its creation and don't have solid axenic cultures to draw from. One middle-ground option is to do multiple transfers until you feel that you have a good clean culture on agar, and then make a liquid inoculant by blending a piece of agar into sterilized water. The difference there is that you're not giving any potential contaminants a chance to grow in the liquid medium, and as soon as you have a plate you like you're off to the races.




That's really great info and all makes sense, thanks!

I'm currently trying to source spanners to change the bust valve on the PC, and everything else is in the slow mail train, so I'm gonna go build a SAB in the meantime.


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