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OfflineTurd
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seperation of consciousness and external persona?
    #2882293 - 07/12/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I have a problem that has been getting worse and worse with time.... it's that my external personality (how I act, what I say most of the time, etc) is slowly peeling away from my internal monologue and consciousness.

The person that I am in my head (the way my mind reacts to things, how I think about things, etc) no longer has any direct impact on how I act, so I watch myself doing these horribly stupid things and I can't really stop myself in time to make a graceful recovery or anything. I can't even SAY what's on my mind.

If you asked me, at any given point, what was on my mind, I'd probably look at you with this helpless look on my face and say "I dont know" when I fact I know perfectly well what's going on in my head, I just can't verbalize it.

I've spent the past 2 years at a nerd college where my "new friends" aren't into talking about anything deeper than "man I hate teacher X". So I internalized all my "deep" thoughts (I used to love discussing that shit), and since that happened, my thoughts have gone from easily expressible (thinking in english, for example), to wierd abstract thoughts that I can "think of" much faster, but can't put into words because they don't exist in any expressible form.

My "personailty" as it stands now is generally very mellow, lethargic and quiet, when in fact there is so much in my head I want to share with people.

My external now seems like it is controlled by a really simple shell of a personality, and I automatically react and say things, but the things I say and do don't really have any "meaning" any more because they're simply hollow auto responses.

I feel like I'm living inside my head..... like I'm sitting in a big lazy boy back in my subconscious and just watching everything outside me unfold without any real interest or care. My mind is ALWAYS racing on something completely unrelated to whats going on around me.... like my physical and mental self are existing now in two completely different, unconnected places.

I don't really know what I'm expecting people to say about this.... I just kinda needed to type it out and organize my thoughts about this a little. Soon I think I'm going to do a solo trip on ~10 grams and see if I can sort myself out somewhat.

Anyone read all that and have any idea what I'm talking about or what might be happening to me?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2882775 - 07/12/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

A book i read talked about two seperate parts of our minds, the victim and the judge. The judge is the part that knows what we 'should' be doing, you could call it our higher self, and the victim is the part that is always incapable of achieving the impossible demands of the judge. Thus people often feel unsatisfied with themselves, and yet feel unable to change it.

The solution is dual. One: find out what it is that your not doing thats making you unhappy and start making a serious effort to do it. Take it slow and dont expect immediate success, just make sure your moving towards your goals and not away from them.

and

Two: realize that you are a good person, and stop beating yourself up. Easier said than done, but just realize that you are your own toughest critic and that we all have occasional lapses and slips in our lives. Life is often two steps forward one step back, but thats ok. Personally i go from like week long periods of regular exercise, healthy diet, meditation, dream recall and overall happiness, than i slip into a few days of lethargy, constant burn out stoning, dreamless sleeps and general unhappiness.

By the way: this thread is what the support group central is all about, you might want to try this kind of thing there in the future for more responses.

Peace Bro
"things are gonna get easier, things'll get brighter..."

:wink:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2882826 - 07/12/04 05:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Smoking lots of weed or using dissasociative drugs can cause such effects. I have had times were I feel disembodied from myself after smoking lots of weed.
I think the best thing to do is to bring your internal mind and consciousness into harmony with the world around you. Make an effort to be engaged and pay attention to the people and things around you. If you make your mind involved in the external world more this seems to aleviate the problem.


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2882977 - 07/12/04 06:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I know exactly what you mean dude. I feel like what I'm able to put into words is just a tiny tip of the iceberg of thought and emotion that I want to communicate to others. I'm an awful speaker as it is, so it makes it even harder to communicate complex ideas, and like you said, theres not that many people to practice verbalizing the deep shit with. Its hard to get stuff across to people unless you have a common framework of reference, which takes time to build.

Moonshoe is right, don't get too upset about it. All we can do is just keep applying a steady and focused pressure on ourselves, and slowly work towards our goals. Its impossible to change our conditioning and our habitual thought routines in an instant. You've just got to keep pounding away and eventually progress is made. The main thing is don't get discouraged, keep moving forward at all times, no matter how futile things seem. The key is to keep looking for your answers.

No matter how lost you get, as long as you keep looking eventually you'll find your way.

The only advice I can really offer as far as uniftying the state of your body with the state of your mind, is to spend time each day (whenever you think about it) to truly try and focus on ONE aspect of your body or your physical environment. Try to fully concentrate on that single aspect and really wrap your mind around it. Like, concentrate on how a certain part of your skin feels, and how the air feels as it moves across your skin and how the light hits it. Or contemplate the position of an object in relation to your body (build a 3d image in your head and try to rotate it around and see how far the object is, how high it is in relation to your head, etc.) This kind of thing helps me to remain more focused on my surroundings (even though I still suck at doing so) and also makes it easier to snap my focus into place when I need it. The idea is to pull your attention away from random thought loops and fantasies and other thoughts that are just some kind of mental daydream. At any rate, I have no idea what I'm doing either, so this is all just random stuff I've found to be helpful in my experience, however subjective that may be.

Good luck dude, I know you'll find your equilibrium if you just keep looking. Peace.


--------------------


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2885119 - 07/13/04 08:52 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I can relate Turd..same thing goin on over here. But i dont believe in free will, so whatever is goin to happen is going to happen, and even if i do actually have free will, the fact that i dont believe i do pretty much means that for all practical purposes i dont have it. So again im just going to do, become whatever it is that i must given the circumstances. You cant even try to enjoy the ride, because enjoying it isnt up to you...well u an try..but only if you have to..and if you do it wasnt up to you...just lucky, you cant make peace with it unless your meant to, you cant change anything unless you have to. All you can do is Be..and that is what you will do...till u stop. Good luck :wink:

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be. (for now)


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2885210 - 07/13/04 10:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"solo trip on ~10 grams and see if I can sort myself out somewhat."

I would wait on that one. you said you were typing this out to get your thoughts organized.  do it when you are in a good mood and your mind is totally stable. Not to say that you are unstable, but it sounds as though you are at odds with yourself.  don't go looking for shrooms to help fix anything, you have to do that work.  Shrooms will amplify your feelings, and if you are at odds with yourself, there's a chance it could get worse.

try and do the sorting out while you are sober.  lay off any drugs (including mj)  for a little bit and get your head clear.

I know what you mean about the internal dialogue, and the constant raceing of thoughts you have in your mind.  you might want to work on that too.  when you work on quieting the mind, and then you do shrooms, for me at least, the silence is breathtaking.  do the work first, then the shrooms :laugh:, just a suggestion. 

btw, a lot of the stuff you pointed out, I can so relate to.  I can recommend a very helpful book, I know a couple of others will say the same.  Handbook to higher consciousness by ken keyes.  one of my favorite books, uses common sense and easy to understand. plus it's cheap :wink:  it partly talks about using your ego and negative emotions to actually help better yourself and become more aware and involved in whatever you do.  i could go on more if ya like hehe but I'll stop there for now.

good luck man and feel free to give us a trip report when you can!  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineTurd
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2886337 - 07/13/04 03:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for all the replies thus far guys.

I hope I didn't come across as depressed....  Years ago I had a mental "breathrough" and realized how great life is, no matter whats happening (internally or externally)... so it takes a LOT to really get to me, piss me off, make me sad, whatever.  I look at this more as an interesting new experience that I'm trying to understand.  I guess some parts of me are worried that if I don't sort it out relatively soon I may have trouble handling stuff that comes my way.  I'll be ok though.

I'll definately check out that book too.

The reason I want to trip to help me out is when I'm tripping, it seems like my internal and external are combined and I can form all my thoughts clearly and without any trouble.  I can express myself perfectly.  I may not do 10 grams, but I still believe a good trip might really help me see this from a completely different angle, and hopefully I can wrap my mind around it a lot better.

I always stay positive....  I see all the great things I can do in life... sometimes I just have some trouble understanding myself :smile:  :tongue2:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2886461 - 07/13/04 04:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You'd probably be best off taking a normal doseage (8th?) but doing so alone.

This is more likely to lead to profundity than a 10 gram doseage, which would most likely just confuse you to no end.

The important thing to remember if you are trying to take something from a trip back to real life is this:

DURING the peak is not the time for problem solving. During the peak things get too confusing.

I look at the peak as "facing the abyss".. all forms of chaos and abyssery (made up that word) are right in front of your eyes. It can be a good time if you don't dwell on it, but if you find yourself "thinking about what you're thinking about", it is time for one of those friendly comments to yourself: "It's just the shrooms, man."

This is where it gets rough when it comes to thinking things through during the peak. Due to the large amount of "chaos" you're being exposed directly to at the same time, your thoughts get twisted and you end up finding yourself having to resort to your safety net because things (by things I mean whatever stream of thought is occuring within you) start to sound too twisted or demented in your head.

You're much better off thinking things through on the comedown. During the comedown, it's as if your brain is still in "extremely high activity" mode, but now you can control WHAT you think.

This all ties back to NOT doing 10 grams because...

On 10 grams, the peak is going to last a lot longer, and it's going to be a LOT more confusing and disorienting.

Because of this, there is a much higher likelihood that the comedown will be less enticing. Most likely you will be exhausted, and still trying to make sense of what just happened to you... I even speculate that one might be so pre-occupied with trying to figure out "what the fuck?!" that they forget to think about what they WANTED to think about.

I'm not saying you can't have a profound comedown off 10 grams, just that it is much less likely that you'll have energy left to spend on it, etc...


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2888613 - 07/14/04 06:38 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Damn we have alot in common...i to have felt the need recently to trip..kinda a kick in the ass or something. Im not depressed either but i also feel like i cant go on as i am, but i seem stuck. I can see two versions of myself, and all this potential, but neither seems to be winning right now, so im in nuetral or something.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2890497 - 07/14/04 05:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Since you're already describing experiences of 'depersonalization,' and 'dissociation,' I would recommend NOT using psychedelics at all - not to mention a ridiculous 10 gram dose - until you have integrated your various self-components. Integration is the goal of wholeness and health, not dissolution. You may initiate another couple of 'd' words - namely 'derealization' and 'decompensation' - both of which indicate a psychotic break, for which you may end up being involuntarily hospitalized.

Now, I'm just going by your own anecdotal writings, but if they're accurate I hope you'll take my advice as a mental health professional with over 20 years experience, as well as an 'entheogen-enthusiast' with over 30 years of experience, and get-it-together before you fall-the-f**k-apart. PEACE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2890531 - 07/14/04 06:02 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, Handbook to Higher Consciousness IS a helpful book. So is The Power of Now .


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemikey_
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2890845 - 07/14/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

hi,
i would definately take markos' advice and lay off the mushrooms and all drugs. they're not going to help in this situation. after a particularly intense mushroom trip this time last year markos pm'd me and gave me some guidance and explanations as to what i'd experienced, which helped me a great deal. for this i am very grateful.

it seems like you may be stuck in a routine with your friends and social life. CHANGE IT. the best thing i ever did was to stop doing the same stuff all the time, namely hanging around with same people, smoking weed and discussing the same stuff. so basically you need to stop being able to sit there and act out this persona and thinking this way. it's hard to break routines and pattern but its very possible, theres plenty of things you can do.

as i've said drugs, partic. mushrooms are probably gonna make the situation worse, in what way is what you experience on a trip going to help you? you already have the insight into whats wrong so act on it.

take it easy man,
Mike


--------------------
The poison is the dose - Paracelsus
Let your food be medicine and your medicine be food - Hippocrates


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2891530 - 07/15/04 12:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like you need to find some friends that are interested in cool stuff and dump those self concious losers your hanging with now. Then drop that 10g with your new friends, or better yet, share it with them.


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Offlinedante
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2892090 - 07/15/04 03:12 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Hey..

I think that you are very similar to me.. I have the same problems. Something you need to realize is that you are one. Not two. Duality is a huge problem with almost everybody. They are very trapped in their own bodies because of many reasons; society, education, authority, etc. This is all very much an illusion.

Whoever recommended The Power of Now to read is a very good person. YOu should most definatley get that book. I also recommend reading books by Alan Watts, books on meditation and Buddhism.

You are certainly a person who will grately benefit from meditation(Ha! As if to say there is a person who wouldn't?!). I also suggest taking a philosophy class, in case you already have it. The study of philosophy is enlightening itself.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2892294 - 07/15/04 05:24 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"The person that I am in my head (the way my mind reacts to things, how I think about things, etc) no longer has any direct impact on how I act, so I watch myself doing these horribly stupid things and I can't really stop myself in time to make a graceful recovery or anything. I can't even SAY what's on my mind."

I think you're tripping yourself out. This look at lot like anxiety to me.

It seems to me that you think you're all messed up. This is the only reason you seem messed up; because you think you are!

Its like the thin chicks who think they're really fat.... Since they think they're all nasty, it shows that they dislike themselves, and it makes them unattractive, even without mentioning anything at all.

I've been getting rid of this for quite some time - several years back I was convinced that I was a total loony (not in a good way). Just the fact that I thought I was crazy was the only thing driving me crazy. As soon as I started realizing that my only problem was that I thought there was a problem, I re-gained my sanity and could once-again focus on the outside world instead of spending my time trying to figure out "what's wrong with me!"

When a person is spending time thinking about how their mind isn't working right or how their external persona has separated from their consciousness, that makes them weird, and it makes their mind not work right, and it makes their external persona separate from their consciousness.
As soon as they realize that this separation is an act, they can stop tripping out about it and move on with their live, which shuts down the act and links the external persona back up with thier consciousness.

Hopefully that makes sense - basically all I'm saying is stop tripping out about this and start tripping out about getting your life in order- you'll find yourself when you stop looking


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2892339 - 07/15/04 06:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

the outer self is what you and your conditioning expresses:

masks
a series of masks

routines that were practiced or repeated or observed.

all of the body is part of the mask.

all of your possessions are part of the mask.

if the separation is huge - or if the self is entirely asleep (on automatic), other people are only permitted to interact with the masks.

the masks are quite plastic changeable -> a sense of emptiness may follow.

noticing this is part of waking up.

connecting with the self and its parts (including what the masks are made of) follows the waking up of self.

later new routines are practiced - they make sense - they become part of the collection of masks,

the same thing repeats but it has been touched by "enlightenment" (a relative term used here because this is what it is about).

the more effort at re-connection, the more enlightenment & the more the masks become helpful to the self and the universe, the less separation.

masks or learned behaviour emerge from our store of practiced routines, what you are thinking at this moment is spontaneous life - with some effort (over time) it becomes more connected. the light of the moment pervades the masks.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2892411 - 07/15/04 07:51 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This is a really interesting thread.  Mostly because I've been struggling with the same thing as Turd, and its neat that this thread come to be when it did. 

I can only tell you what I've been doing.  First off, I am taking an extended break from psychedelics, so that I don't excerberate this feeling of disconnection, and the sensation of unreality.  Next, I am trying to teach myself to think slower and with more clarity.  If I find my thoughts racing in a conversation, I take a few deep breaths to gain my bearings.  Then I try to speak with self-awareness, slowly so that I have a grip on the things I am saying.  Gradually, I believe I will come to a place where I will be able to articulate myself better and not be "lost in my brain" so much.  Obviously, it is like taking baby-steps.  The problem won't disappear overnight, especially if you don't try and help yourself.  But you owe it to yourself to try.  :smile:

Anyway, just wanted to tell what I've been doing so far.  Good luck!

*me*


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: MOTH]
    #2892740 - 07/15/04 10:20 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"Obviously, it is like taking baby-steps. The problem won't disappear overnight, especially if you don't try and help yourself. But you owe it to yourself to try."

yay!



:yesnod:



:thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineTurd
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2893024 - 07/15/04 12:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

thanks a TON for all the replies people.... this is exactly what I was hoping would happen. Since this is happening to me, it's very difficult for me to really pull myself away from the situation and look at it from different angles as I usually like to do. Reading about all your experiences relative to this, and you advice, has really helped.

Right about the time I posted this, I chose, as a part of the solution, to simplify my life. It had gotten very hectic and overly complex, and now I'm basically down to only having a couple of things on my mind (job, internship). This has made it a lot easier for me to concentrate and, hopefully, begin "reintegrating".

I will certainly pick up as many of these books as I can. I've also had "take more college classes, especially philosophy" pretty high on to-do list for a while, but it just got knocked up a couple notches, hehe.

I've also (since I posted) realized a lot of the roots for this problem. Insecurities so deeply rooted they are fact to my subconcious..... and several other things that I'm still.... refining in my head. One of the main things, though, will simply take time for me to fix.

Back in early high school, I was a very different person. I was loud, annoying, selfish.... and I realized it. I decided I didn't want to be like that any more, so I tried my best to get myself under control. It worked. For my senior year of HS, I was transformed, and it was good. I was a good person... I spoke my mind succinctly, and interracted with people confidently. I'm still a good person (or at least I'd like to think so), but my original push to "get in control" involved me pulling myself back a bit so I could analyze situations and people a lot better, and it went way further than I wanted it to. The habits I developed while I changed myself stuck with me, and so the process didn't stop where it was supposed to, and ran on through college without me even realizing it. I can fix this just by reversing what I was doing before (well, basically, but it wont be that simple).... I think this is kind of what you're talking about EllemyshShade.

meditation.... definately need to start doing that again soon too.

I'm still thinking about tripping, but your opinions have serious weight and I'm definately considering everything heavily here. The reasons I have for wanting to trip (maybe not 10g, but at least 3) simply that in the past, during turbulent times in my life, tripping has really helped me to collect and focus my thoughts. Then again, I could just THINK that because I want to.

Strumpling: I've given this possibility a lot of serious thought, but I don't quite think it's true. I'm not the kind of person to think himself sick (at least, I dont think I am, har har). I am, internally at least, a very optomistic person. Depression and hate are a waste of energy, and I haven't succumbed to them in years. I've gotten close-- recognized the early warning signs, and they're easy to defeat now. Who does it help to get sad or pissed off about a problem eh? I could do a lot more good by immediate focussing on the solution instead of sitting around crying about it. That belief has actually pissed off some of my friends before, when something unfortunate would happen and I immediately start working on the solution while other people beat themselves up about the situation. But I digress. It's definitely a possibilty, strumples, I won't deny that.

I'm not sure if I should be glad this is happening to other people as well, but it certainly has shown me a lot of different sides to the situation.

redgreenvines: Yes! That concept has been on my mind a lot lately, and I think it's definately a big factor. But, as with everything else in life..... once realized, it can be changed.

marcosthegnostic: I don't know about my sanity.... I'd like to think I'm a pretty stable person. Yah, there's some uncertainty inside me, a few X factors here and there, but I figured that's pretty normal for people. I've always thought my "problems"... or rather.... my inconsistencies were a part of life that must be overcome by everyone, and I'm just working my way down a well-traveled path.

I need to stop analyzing everything I see and do, and just start living my life. I think this constant pulling-back of my conciousness to "think about" something is also a large factor. My mind likes to explore all the possible outcomes of a situation, follow all the different paths, etc. I think I need to stop this, at least for now, because it's not enabling me to live like I want to. I'm an observer right now. I would much rather be the observed, the one the scientists are envious of, the one actually IN the experiments, instead of just having to watch.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: seperation of consciousness and external persona? [Re: Turd]
    #2893536 - 07/15/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"I've given this possibility a lot of serious thought, but I don't quite think it's true. I'm not the kind of person to think himself sick (at least, I dont think I am, har har). I am, internally at least, a very optomistic person. Depression and hate are a waste of energy, and I haven't succumbed to them in years."

I don't believe you have to think of yourself as "sick" or be depressed or hateful for this to be true... I think I'm trying to say that if you are dwelling on who you are, you will confuse yourself.

I think my last sentence put it best - you will find yourself when you stop looking and just move on to something else in life


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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