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InvisibleMoonshoe
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your mind COULD be creating reality
    #2879565 - 07/11/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

and dreams are the evidence of that. Every night when we fall asleep we dream. Those dreams involve all five senses, they contain unique people and characters, scenery, animals, adventures, threats, lessons and even their own unique kinds of physical laws.

And all this originates in your own mind, when your eyes are closed and your senses non operative. What this shows to me is that our minds, however they may be defined or located, are actually capable of creating a fully inclusive reality, complete with every kind of sensory experience.

Now, to me this is THE definitive example of the human potential. Humans are Gods! what i mean by that is that we can create a functioning world full of hundred or thousands or millions of objects, locations and even people, and have it realized in the form of a percievable reality. How is this different than the myth (or reality blah blah blah) of a supreme god who 'concieved' of the world and with his thought made it so?

also, it raises other questions. Is this reality a gods dream? what makes me more 'real' than the characters in my dreams, who have unique personalities, appearances and behaviour patterns? some of those dream characters (in MY dreams) actually know things that i dont, at least conciously.

Is it wrong to harm a character in a dream?

Could this world be entirely a creation of our own minds, that is a manifestation of our projected conciousness, rather than an enviroment in which that conciousness exists and percieves?

Add things like lucid dreams to the formula and the possibilites increase a million fold. Theoretically, for a person who had totally masterd the art of lucid or concious dreaming, there would be no operative differance between the world of waking life and that of dreaming. It could even be possible to make the decision never to leave the dream world again.

And finally, for me dreams are supremely indicative of the human creative potential. Who cares about airplanes, synthetic fabrics, genetically modified crops? sure these things are pretty ingenious, but compare them to a single dream. One example is the creation of a machine or mechanism, the other is the creation of a universe.

Perhaps the consensus world, the waking world, is a kind of communal play ground or school, where all the disembodied conciousness, all the diverse gods of the universe, leave their own personal self created worlds and all get together for a while, to share ideas and essentially see what happens when gods share the reigns of the world.

Maybe when a new invention occurs, or a new theory previously thought impossible is proved to be functional, what is really happening is one of those supremely creative conciousness's is taking something from his/her dream world, where anything is possible, and introducing it to the consensus world.

ok, thats enough mind meandering for now, but dreams kick ass, and im sure they contain the secrets to the universe if we could only unlock them.

PEACE

:mushroom2:

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2879714 - 07/11/04 09:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"all matter is merely energy condenced; we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. - Bill Hicks


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

Edited by bellylard (07/11/04 09:42 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2879723 - 07/11/04 09:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

When your asleep is not the only time you dream. You also dream when you are awake, but the 5 senses provide a concrete frame of reference. This dream is defined by your morals, values, religious beleifs, likes, dislikes and so on. Everyone's dream is different. That is why there is often dissonances between humans. People start to assume that everyone else shares their dream when in fact each persons dream, while having common threads, is unique. As it is possible to become lucid in the night time dream and control it; it is also possible to become lucid in the daytime dream and control it. You just have to be aware that it is a dream.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2879760 - 07/11/04 09:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
As it is possible to become lucid in the night time dream and control it; it is also possible to become lucid in the daytime dream and control it. You just have to be aware that it is a dream.




Ahh ja, I know that feeling. :laugh: I love those experiences, so much is learned... it always seems to happen on the interstate as well, when my woman is asleep, and I'm driving along, admiring the clouds and the musikk... watching all the other organic structures carrying awareness in the right lane disappear in my rear-view mirror... :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2880060 - 07/11/04 10:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah Terence Mckenna used to say that the "rules of reality" are held together in the same way that a thought or a story is held together in one's mind, and that it can all be changed.

But of course; he was a total lunatic.. and I loved 'im :-D


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2880202 - 07/11/04 11:31 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I prefer to stear clear of ideas that over-emphasise the self, disconnect a person from the rest of the world. If we are nothing but island universes then everyone is completely alone. If I am in a bad mood that would mean the entire universe is absolutely worthless, it is my negative feeling and there is nothing else. That state would be absolute hell.
There must be a distinction made between thought and sense. In our thoughts we are locked into a dream like state all of the time, but we do experience stimuli in a very real way. When you cultivate a quiet and clear mind through meditation then your conscious state begins to wake up and your sense of self expands beyond your immediate experience. The mind is in harmony with stimuli and the self is one with everything. This is not being a god in your own universe, but a little piece of the ultimate and transcendent God.

I know from first hand experiences, thinking in that way is very dangerous. I had a trip where I thought like this and by the end I was in complete despair because I felt like I was completely alone, the whole universe was finite and all there was in existence where my own negative feelings. It really sucked. That's why it's better to believe in a higher power or somekind of greater order.

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2880232 - 07/11/04 11:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

My first full "breakthrough" experience with Salvia D convinced me of the power of creation inherent in the human brain. Yes...my mind "could" be creating reality, but I tend to think it isn't and that what comes in through my sensory apparatus is "real" in some exeternal form.

Below is a brief summary of my thoughts on "reality" that I wrote a year or so ago:

---

Hmm, well here's my take on the whole concept of "reality".

What is "Reality"? I see a few possibilities:

1) It is entirely external to the Self,
2) It is entirely internal to the Self,
3) It is a mixture of the two.

Now let's cover each option on its own.

If Reality is something that is entirely "out there", meaning external to human consciousness, then all we can know about Reality is what we perceive through our sensory apparatus. It may be that we do not perceive 100% of this external reality, and as such do not have a complete picture of what Reality really is. I will say that I find this option to be the second most likely of the three.

If Reality is entirely internal to human consciousness, meaning entirely created within the mind, then a great many things should be possible which do not appear to be. Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds. Psychic phenomena is easily explained in this case as a result of the individual creation of Reality. Mass-consciousness would probably be a necessity, again for us to all experience the general same Reality. Unless, of course, I am the only being in existence and you are all just figments of my imagination! I find this option to be the least likely of the three.

Finally, a mix of the previous two options. This is what I think is most likely. There is something "out there" which is concrete, and I will call that "physical Reality". This is the realm of Science, and is what is normally sensed by our five main senses (touch, taste, sound, vision, hearing). There is also an internal aspect which I will call "human Reality". This aspect is added, by some part of the brain, after sensory input. For instance, when I look at a chair I do not see a collection of geometric shapes and colours...I see a chair. I also recognize the chair as a separate object (Self, lets say) which is not connected to its surroundings. In physical Reality this is not necessarily the case...as the only thing I am using to separate the chair from the room is the fact that the air around it is transparent to the narrow band of EM radiation my eyes are sensitive to. So the concept of Self and separateness is added to my sensory input after sensory reception. Also added is the concept of Meaning which we humans put so much thought into.

I should also like to point out that in this case there still exists the possibility (I would say it is a definate) that we are not sensing 100% of physical Reality. Actually, on further thought, there is no way we can consider ourselves to be receiving 100% of physical reality. This has been well proven by the physical sciences; as I stated earlier our eyes are only receptive to a very narrow band of the EM force. There is much more "out there" than we are presently aware of.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: trendal]
    #2880775 - 07/12/04 01:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That is why my band is called "adonai"

or in other words "Gods"

We are gods. We can created heaven, you can create heaven. But most people arent in controlf of themselfs, so they operate within a control scheme.

The musrhoom breaks you free of "matrix thinking" and shows you the power of yourself. We can and will create our own heaven.

We are born with the ability to create our own realities, but we are brainwashed into thinking we are not.

peace and love.

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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881272 - 07/12/04 05:53 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

mind creates reality

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Anonymous

Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881863 - 07/12/04 11:18 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

i exist. you exist.

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Invisibletoad857
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881876 - 07/12/04 11:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

last night i had a dream that seemed SO real it was scary. then when i woke up i felt almost foolish to have forgotten what life was *really* like. it was crazy!

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881887 - 07/12/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

since the world i perceive seems to be similar to yours (i have a mind and I also dream) we must be creating the same exact reality...

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Anonymous

Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2881891 - 07/12/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

and because i am part of your reality and you a part of mine...

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Invisibletoad857
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ]
    #2881897 - 07/12/04 11:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

that's interesting.

:thumbup:

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881907 - 07/12/04 11:31 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

maybe.

but a problem with internal reality is that it suggests that you have a brain. Obvious, maybe, but having a brain is external.

So youd have to create a brain to create reality. What would create it?
Oh shit, your brain.

At least IMO

and Divided_Sky - aren't we all always alone anyway? We are alone at least till we die, though many of us seem to share in quite a lot of our lives..

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OfflineViaggio
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2881955 - 07/12/04 11:50 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I think it's more important that we first answer the questions "what is the mind?"  and "what is reality?" before we can determine if the "mind" is creating "reality."

:sorry:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Viaggio]
    #2882195 - 07/12/04 12:53 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"since the world i perceive seems to be similar to yours (i have a mind and I also dream) we must be creating the same exact reality...
"

let me get this straight. because you have eyes and you see with them, and so do i, that means you have the exact same eyes as me and see the exact same things?

or to put it another way, you think that the fact we both live and are aware of life means we are living the exact same life?

wrong wrong

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Anonymous

Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2882556 - 07/12/04 02:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

are you saying that i exist only in the reality created by your mind?

i'm going to have to say that i'm pretty sure you're wrong about that one.

what you are talking about is a fallacy called solipsism. do a google search and you'll find plenty of philosophical websites outlining the problems inherent in such a view of reality.

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Anonymous

Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ]
    #2882588 - 07/12/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Solipsism

Solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that "existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states - all objects, people, etc, that one experiences, are merely parts of one's own mind. One is like a God, creating the reality in which one exists. Solipsism is logically coherent, but not falsifiable, so it cannot be established by current modes of the scientific method.

Solipsism is a common theme in eastern philosophy. Various interpretations of Buddhism, especially Zen, teach that the entire universe exists only in one's mind.

The classic objection to solipsism is that people die. However, you have not died, and therefore you have not disproved it.

A further objection is that life causes pain. Why would we create pain for ourselves? One response to this is that there may be some reason which we have decided to forget, such as the law of Karma, or a desire not to be bored.

A deeper objection, raised by David Deutsch, among others, is that, since you have no control over the "universe" you are creating for yourself, there must be some unconscious part of your mind creating it. If you make your unconscious mind the object of scientific study (e.g. by conducting experiments) you will find that it behaves with the same complexity as the universe offered by realism; therefore, the distinction between realism and solipsism collapses - what realism calls "the universe", solipsism calls "your unconscious mind", but these are just different names for the same thing: both are massively complex processes external to your conscious mind, and the cause of all your experiences."

http://www.fact-index.com/s/so/solipsism.html

here is a much longer and more detailed analysis of the problem:

Solipsism and the Problem of Other Minds

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2882689 - 07/12/04 02:53 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

And all this originates in your own mind, when your eyes are closed and your senses non operative.

Your senses don't operate while sleeping? Want to take the "Swami Sensory Awareness While Sleeping Challenge"?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/12/04 02:54 PM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2882746 - 07/12/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"are you saying that i exist only in the reality created by your mind?"

no, not exactly. What im actually saying is that the existance of dreams, and particularly the ability of the mind to create entire people and personalities in the dream, show that that is a real POSSIBILITY. I also proposed a few others, just for pontificating on, but i dont claim to know the answers.

Thanks alot for posting that thing on solipilism (sic) it was really interesting, and as the post itself said, not falsifiable, or disprovable. In many ways it is the most believable paradigm ive heard, and i plan to do more studying on it. However, as in any philosophy this can be interpreted in a few different ways, some of which will no doubt lead to wrong or harmfull conclusions. The belief in your own godhood is both the most true and the most false thing you could believe.

"do you mean to say that senses are non operative during sleep?"
in many ways, yes. The theory that external sensory stimulus is recieved and interpreted by the brain to form dreams has been tested and disproved in a labratory setting. (the guy tried flashing lights in dreamers eyes, touching skin, sounding bells and buzzers etc and then compared the results to a control group who were not interfered with and staayed in a silenced room. No noticeable differances in the nature of the dreams were observed)

Although rarely an outside sound or light can make an appearance in the dream, they do not account for the vast majority of dreams or dream sensations, and most outside sensations do not intrude into the dream at all. Again, i have no doubt you will come back with a "source and link Please" and im gonna say screw it. I studied this in my psychology class, i don't have the source on hand, nor do i think its my reponsibilty to find it for you, it would probably be just as easy for you to find it on google or something than it would be for me to dig it up, but hey if you really think i made it up myself than... well that hurts swami.

( i realize im responding to a number of things you havent actually said yet, forgive my presumption)

As for your "swami sensory sleep test" or whatever, i assume you would mean that by whacking me with stuff you could wake me up or something, and thats probably true, but i never argued that a person couldn't be woken from sleep, or couldnt return to the waking conciousness, but rather i was simply saying that dreams are internally created and not reliant on sensation. After all your eyes are closed, arent they? thats pretty much the definition of non operative vision.

On that note, at my cabin one time we were watching a movie and my friend fell asleep, so in the fine tradition we decided to fuck with him. First i wanted to see if i could influence his dreams by saying things like 'your falling out of a plane' or 'your gonna get hit by a train' over and over in his ear.

This didnt get any noticeable response so i started shouting it. Still nothing. Throughout the next 2 hours we poked him, prodded him, screamed in his ears, roughly grabbed his cheeks, pushed him out of his bed, blew marijuana and tabacco smoke in his face, balanced a beer can on his head and a cigar in his mouth, lifted and dropped his eyelids, rubbed cocaine on his gums, and burned him with a lighter (not badly)

the results? not even the slightest stir, and when we asked him the next day none of his dreams indicated any relation to our sensory tamperings.

Damn funny shit to.

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: trendal]
    #2882984 - 07/12/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
My first full "breakthrough" experience with Salvia D convinced me of the power of creation inherent in the human brain. Yes...my mind "could" be creating reality, but I tend to think it isn't and that what comes in through my sensory apparatus is "real" in some exeternal form.

Below is a brief summary of my thoughts on "reality" that I wrote a year or so ago:

---

Hmm, well here's my take on the whole concept of "reality".

What is "Reality"? I see a few possibilities:

1) It is entirely external to the Self,
2) It is entirely internal to the Self,
3) It is a mixture of the two.

Now let's cover each option on its own.

If Reality is something that is entirely "out there", meaning external to human consciousness, then all we can know about Reality is what we perceive through our sensory apparatus. It may be that we do not perceive 100% of this external reality, and as such do not have a complete picture of what Reality really is. I will say that I find this option to be the second most likely of the three.

If Reality is entirely internal to human consciousness, meaning entirely created within the mind, then a great many things should be possible which do not appear to be. Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds. Psychic phenomena is easily explained in this case as a result of the individual creation of Reality. Mass-consciousness would probably be a necessity, again for us to all experience the general same Reality. Unless, of course, I am the only being in existence and you are all just figments of my imagination! I find this option to be the least likely of the three.




supose mass consciousness exist on a level we do not normall percieve. like the sub/unconsciouss? and we all collectivly participate in the creation of a generally acceptable world.
Quote:


Finally, a mix of the previous two options. This is what I think is most likely. There is something "out there" which is concrete, and I will call that "physical Reality". This is the realm of Science, and is what is normally sensed by our five main senses (touch, taste, sound, vision, hearing). There is also an internal aspect which I will call "human Reality". This aspect is added, by some part of the brain, after sensory input. For instance, when I look at a chair I do not see a collection of geometric shapes and colours...I see a chair. I also recognize the chair as a separate object (Self, lets say) which is not connected to its surroundings. In physical Reality this is not necessarily the case...as the only thing I am using to separate the chair from the room is the fact that the air around it is transparent to the narrow band of EM radiation my eyes are sensitive to. So the concept of Self and separateness is added to my sensory input after sensory reception. Also added is the concept of Meaning which we humans put so much thought into.

I should also like to point out that in this case there still exists the possibility (I would say it is a definate) that we are not sensing 100% of physical Reality. Actually, on further thought, there is no way we can consider ourselves to be receiving 100% of physical reality. This has been well proven by the physical sciences; as I stated earlier our eyes are only receptive to a very narrow band of the EM force. There is much more "out there" than we are presently aware of.




i like ur third explantion .. was interesting.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: BleaK]
    #2883233 - 07/12/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"supose mass consciousness exist on a level we do not normall percieve. like the sub/unconsciouss? and we all collectivly participate in the creation of a generally acceptable world."

Righteous
:thumbup:

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2884636 - 07/13/04 12:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"and dreams are the evidence of that. Every night when we fall asleep we dream. Those dreams involve all five senses, they contain unique people and characters, scenery, animals, adventures, threats, lessons and even their own unique kinds of physical laws."

not neccessarily..
my dreams really only involve, at most, 3 senses at a time.. and occasionally, it's just visual.
dreaming in all text is odd by the by. i've only met a very small number of people who have done that, aside from myself.
and by far, most of what I dream and can recall is solely visual/auditory and emotional. Like watching a movie.

Be very careful when saying ANYTHING definate about dreams. The experience is not universal. If you're trying to tie reality and dreams together, just re-read what I've said about my particular dreams. That doesn't sound anything like reality to you, does it?

Try this take on reality.

We're just animals like any other. Nothing mystical. We live, eat, shit, and grope eachother as any other animal would. Then we die. In between, we exist on a hunk of wet rock that spins around a flaming ball of hydrogen and helium burning itself to death under its own weight.

There's nothing wrong with being humble and admitting you're nothing special.
Yes this IS reality, this IS all we get, this IS all we are. What's so wrong with that, please tell me, because I have never understood this yearning desire so many have to be something more than they are -to be gods. For what use, for what purpose?

And even if this world were just a collective dream, what good would that do us? You still can't make the unreal real, the impossible possible. You're still bound by the same rules and laws whether you think they are real or just some imaginary game played in an imaginary playground. You still will live, eat, shit, and grope other people, just like any other animal.

I guess the difference is I consider the things I experience to be real and meaningful, not just some fantasy.

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OfflineSHR00M0L0GIST
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2884646 - 07/13/04 12:50 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Perception Is Reality.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: SHR00M0L0GIST]
    #2884688 - 07/13/04 01:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I have tried (oh Lord how I have tried) to get this basic point across. Seems that it is missed over and over again.

Reality: There is a 1968 orange Chevy Camaro parked in the street.

Perceiver 1: Cool! I lost my virginity in a '68 Camaro.

Perceiver 2: I hate fucking Chevys. My girlfriend was killed on prom night by an asshole driving a '68 Camaro.

The car ACTUALLY exists independent of these perceivers. The perceivers assign meaning (filter reality) through their personal, historic lens. That is what is meant by "we create reality".

Now yes, the designer had to imagine and sketch out the car and the engineers and metal shapers had to build it, but that has nothing to do with the independent perceivers not involved with its creation.

Can we move on now?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2884736 - 07/13/04 01:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Can we move on now?




Ja, please. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2884762 - 07/13/04 01:52 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Let's get back to talking about important issues like chicks, music and good reefer...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Swami]
    #2884828 - 07/13/04 02:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami! You've stumbled onto the meaning of life! :shocked: :wink:

You continue to quickly and efficently wrap up these much-debated subjects quite nicely. :lol:

So, moving on, I'm listening to Borknagar's new cd, it is so fucking amazing and so close to my ideal metal sound that my mind is blown (they are Norweigan, of course, which explains that), my girlfriend is on my bed and I keep looking over at her sexy ass, and I haven't had any good reefer in a month. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2885027 - 07/13/04 05:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Wow im suprised no one has invoked quantum mechanics in some form in this thread. Since it seems to offer the best evidence that we actually create the reality we observe by observing that particular reality instead of one of the "virtual" possible realities.

You know the whole shrodingers cat, and all that partical wave duality stuff. There is the wave function, it is held in a state of quantum superposition, both being and not being, or being one thing and the other thing at the same time, however u choose to look at it. You observe, measure, interact, whatever... You thus collapse the wave function and bring one of the equally real "virtual" possibilities into being, and that is now your observed reality(what we call "real"). Now what happens to the others is the big question. Are they just gone? are they realized in some alternate universe? or do they somehow coexist with our observed reality yet go unobserved. The math says the virtual states are as real as the actual observed states, but what happens to them?

The many worlds theory says each possiblility is realized in a new and seperate universe, or something akin to that, there are many variations on the many worlds theory.

My personal opinion is that this universe is not all there is, that it is infact just 1 cell in a much greater organism, or system/multiverse. And that that system's purpose is to generate as much complexity as possible and to actualize all possibilities, though the reason why escapes me. The only thing i can think of is the system is trying to know itself completely by experiencing itself in every way possible, and by taking all possible paths. But we are infact just an aspect of this system...we are the system. We are the manifestation of this exploration.

We in a sense are creating all we experience, and all we experience is us...just other aspects of the system as a whole, But we are infact the system. I also believe that we as consience beings each are the equivelent of one synapse or nerve cell or one piece of a much greater collective conscience that makes up the conscience entity of the whole/system. In that respect, we taken individually arent much more aware then a single cell, or synapase but taken together produce a consience entity much greater then the sum of its parts, able to explore its own nature just as we try to in our subjective/individual experience of what we call reality, but in fact all our individual struggles are actually on behalf of the system as a whole and its struggle to know itself completely, we are just agents of the system, parts of the system tasked with carrying out the will of the system. We are, and cant help but to be, and we do what we must, because it is all there is to do, and we do it exactly why, when and how we should because that is the will of the system, or it is what the system itslelf must use us to do.

Everything we experience is the system, we are the system, so we cause our own reality. Everything i experience is me, and i am all there is to experience. The system is the causeless cause, and the truth of being resides in the middle of that seeming paradox. But what seems like paradox may just result from our inability to conceptualize or experience the truth of being, of the whole/system.

What we experience as reality is a half truth, incomplete at best, how limited we are is illustrated by the faliure of our language, we cant even concieve of a causeless cause. Really that term is just a label we've attached to something we cant conceptualize. We might as well just call it the truth of being, that which cant be known, paradox, whatever terms you use to lable it, really it is just a place holder for a gap in our ability to conceptualize. Its just a sign pointing to the truth, but the truth still escapes us, unless we can transend this experience of reality and touch it directly, then maybe we get it, or more of it. But even those of us who think we may have glimpsed "it" cant describe it, verbalize it or even fully grasp it atleast it seems, if we could then why would there be so many subjective interpretations of this absolute truth? if its absolute how can it be slightly varied from one person to another unless each of us is actually not quite getting it all, or with complete clarity. i doubt that as long as we are limited by this mode of being that we currently find ourselves in, that any of us will get the whole truth with perfect clarity, hell im not even sure the system as a whole does, and maybe thats why we are here. Just agents of the system...the system itself trying to find, and fit together all the pieces of the puzzle that is its own nature.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choie but to be.

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OfflinePed
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: trendal]
    #2885922 - 07/13/04 12:01 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I've never been an enormous fan of the dream analogy as evidence that reality unfolds internally rather than externally. While at first it may seem like a plausible argument, and while at the same time it might be an absolutely correct view on things, there are obvious questions which cannot be immediately addressed. For example, the way we distinguish the dream world from what we consider to be 'reality' is by noticing that our dream world has very little consistency. Each time we dream new events unfold; there are new laws to the physical universe, and there are different people in varying situations. There is no tangible stream of action and consequence in the dream world, whereas here in the waking world we are able to connect events of our present as consequences of our actions in the past. There is a certain continuity to the waking world which gives us the strong impression that it's design originated external to us.


>> If Reality is something that is entirely "out there", meaning external to human consciousness, then all we can know about Reality is what we perceive through our sensory apparatus. It may be that we do not perceive 100% of this external reality, and as such do not have a complete picture of what Reality really is.

It is not reasonable to suggest that there is a reality which unfolds completely independent of concious interpretive faculties. If reality were so completely disconnected, emanating it's realism across an invisible chasm into totally distinct islands of conciousness, there would be no disagreement between individuals about reality or the objects within it. Additionally, if reality and conciousness were really two entirely distinct phenomenon, we must further conclude that existence itself is limited and finite, like a balloon floating atop an ocean of unfathomable nothingness. This is true because there can be no actual distinction between one and other in an infinite continuum.

>> If Reality is entirely internal to human consciousness, meaning entirely created within the mind, then a great many things should be possible which do not appear to be. Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds. Psychic phenomena is easily explained in this case as a result of the individual creation of Reality. Mass-consciousness would probably be a necessity, again for us to all experience the general same Reality. Unless, of course, I am the only being in existence and you are all just figments of my imagination! I find this option to be the least likely of the three.

You are quite correct to suggest that all of us are merely figments of your imagination. Take your good friend Ped as an example. In reading my posts, you have come to build within your own mind a structure consisting of your thoughts and feelings toward your experiences with me. You might have decided that I am comical, or too serious, friendly, or too wordy, or all of these. Once you've accumulated enough experience with my posts to generate a sufficiently identifyable knowledge of "Ped", you immediately begin developing feelings for that object. You might find that object to be desirable, undesirable, or completely neutral. Through all of this there is the underlying assumption that your knowledge of Ped is "real", as though it emanates from my nickname, from my posts, and does not originate within your mind. You might say that you "know" me, when really all you have are ideas and discriminations within your own experience, your own mind.

In this way, the Ped that you believe exists, and indeed the many different Ped's that exist within minds all over the globe right now, do not exist at all. All of them are total hallucinations. They are identifyable, even experienced as real, but are actually completely void of substance. They exist like clouds in the sky.

And if we carefully examine our experience, we will notice that we relate to everything and everyone we encounter in exactly the same way. Even the most subtle aspects of our experience are pervaded by our own imputations. We must conclude therefore that every aspect of our own reality is entirely subjective. Even if there were a totally "outside" reality, we would have absolutely no means of discovering it, mapping it, or exploring it.

>> For instance, when I look at a chair I do not see a collection of geometric shapes and colours...I see a chair. I also recognize the chair as a separate object (Self, lets say) which is not connected to its surroundings. In physical Reality this is not necessarily the case...as the only thing I am using to separate the chair from the room is the fact that the air around it is transparent to the narrow band of EM radiation my eyes are sensitive to. So the concept of Self and separateness is added to my sensory input after sensory reception. Also added is the concept of Meaning which we humans put so much thought into.

I like this balanced view. There is one comment I'd like to add to this.

When we encounter a chair, we immediately experience that name of that object. We think "chair", and there is the assumption that "chair" is emanating from the object we are encountering. If we were to pause for a moment and examine our experience with mindfulness, keeping an awareness of our mind, we will notice that it seems as though "chair" is originating from the outside. How is this possible?

It is not possible. If "chair" were originating outside of our minds, then all living beings which encountered that object would be immediately informed of "chair". They may not use the same word, but they would immediately recognize how that object is to be distinguished from other objects. If a "chair" were really a chair from it's own side, all living beings -- even those tribespeople who've never been to an office -- would encounter a chair and share the same experience of "chair".

It is not difficult to reason that our experience of reality is in this way incorrect, because it is nonsense that an object would be emanating it's identity from it's own side. Nonetheless, our mind continues to inform us that "door", "pencil", or "trendal" exist from their own side. This is cause to doubt the authenticity of our experience of reality.

>> Also there arises the question of how we all manage to experience the same general Reality if we are each creating it inside our minds.

Do we? Or do we simply agree upon certain conventions?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (07/13/04 12:11 PM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2886088 - 07/13/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

some interesting stuff here, its hard to know what to respond to

someone said their dreams dont involve all five senses. Cool, but mine do, therefore yours CAN therefore dreams can involve all five senses. unless you have some dreaming disability or something. Either way i'm unclear as to the relevance of this.

Someone else said that we are all mundane animals with no special non or meta animal abilities, and that our life is nothing amazing.
Debating this with you would be like trying to convince someone the sky was blue, if youd rather see it as shit stain brown, i respect your choice.

Swami said something about how the only malleability of reality comes from the differances between sensation and perception. That is, multiple people can sense the same physical thing but interpret it in different ways, due to their previous prejudices. This is very true, but i think it is a different topic.

If you disagree, help me out by directly relating it to the original post rather than throwing it in halfway down and acting like its the end all be all of the discussion, cuz i didnt see the relevance.

And if you want to talk about music reefer and chicks you know damn well this is the wrong forum for it, so why derail my thread with pointless crap like that? simply put: if you dont want to play the game, go sit quietly by the sidelines.

there were some replies here that looked awesome but i didnt have the mental energy to fully absorb, so ill get back to this later.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2888169 - 07/14/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"someone said their dreams dont involve all five senses. Cool, but mine do, therefore yours CAN therefore dreams can involve all five senses. unless you have some dreaming disability or something. Either way i'm unclear as to the relevance of this.

Someone else said that we are all mundane animals with no special non or meta animal abilities, and that our life is nothing amazing.
Debating this with you would be like trying to convince someone the sky was blue, if youd rather see it as shit stain brown, i respect your choice. "

Actually, both were me. Point with the dream was.. dreams aren't as real as people often make them out to be. I know I'm not the only one. And yes, I'll go out on a limb and call it a dream disorder, or a sleep disorder, I'm fairly off-kilter deep down anyway. Was just a rebuttal to the comment that dreams mirror reality. Mine do not, and therefor, I have a very clear and set line that seperates dream from reality. If reality was just a dream, and my dreams are of X variety, should not my reality be similar?

The second point was basically a long, elaborate way of saying this:

When we die, things move on. Whether you are alive or dead, things move on largely just the same as they would have. One day when all mankind is dead, the universe will still move on, as it has done before we showed up. We don't shape reality.

Now.. yes, everything could be our own personal, elaborate dreams. You can't prove it, and you can't disprove it. Sort of like god.
But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you believe because it won't change anything. Dream or not, god or not, tomorrow will come and go just like today and yesterday did.

Really the only difference is that believing reality to be some sort of false veil, some sort of dreamlike state or shared dream.. is that it would introduce all sorts of complications to life that are unneccessary. Questioning what is real, while you're awake, leads to very long circular conversations with no resolution and no real value in my opinion. Whatever decision you come to, only would change your perception of reality.. but not reality itself.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2888277 - 07/14/04 01:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I am still struggling with the concept of how reality is internal and subjective. Yes, when I see an object I assign certain personal thoughts and interpretations to that object, and yes my sensory experience of that object depends on my senses. However, reality is consistent. If you leave something in the woods, I can go to that same spot and find it. Even though nobody was being aware of it, the object remained, and perhaps underwent physical changes, The object did exist independently of both of us, even if it did not exist in the way we normaly percieve it. People can agree on the physical nature of reality, we can agree on spacial dimensions, colors, textures, sounds, etc. all of these are consistent. Moreover, nobody has ever found a part of the brain that fabricates a hallucinated experience. The brain interprets external stimuli that come from pre-existant external causes.

It seems to me that 'consciousness' as we know it is the combination of external reality with the senses and the mind. The mind and stimuli are one in order to create our reality. 'External' and 'Internal' are abitrary terms in that they are manifestations of the same thing. But they are DIFFERENT manifestations. If you fold a piece of paper in half you experience only one side of the paper. Each side is different, and only one can be viewed at a time, but it's just one piece of paper. Besides, things have to exist in a physical sense outside of the mind, otherwise the mind itself could not exist.

Now, I think it is fair to say that nothing exists 'inherently' or seperately from anything else. That everything comes from infinite interrelated causes and conditions. But, to say that reality only exists on our side doesn't make sense to me. Of couse our perspective is relative, but that doesn't mean there isn't a pre-existant objective reality.

Edited by Divided_Sky (07/14/04 01:15 AM)

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2888296 - 07/14/04 01:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

" the way we distinguish the dream world from what we consider to be 'reality' is by noticing that our dream world has very little consistency."

my question is, who decided that consistency had to be one of the criteria of reality? It is one thing to say that dreams lack consistency, but their is a logical jump between that and saying that means dreams aren't real.

"Each time we dream new events unfold and there are different people in varying situations"

same things happen every time i wake up, for that matter.

"there is a certain continuity to the waking world which gives us the strong impression that it's design originated external to us."

there is a certain quality of light refraction through the atmosphere that gives us the strong impression that the moon changes in size throughout the night. Impressions are very often misleading.

Anyways the main thing i wanted to reply here to was the argument that dreams arent real because they lack the consistency of waking life. I believe The differances in consistency can only tell us weather we are awake or dreaming, but says nothing about the reality, or validity of those experiences.

Im certainly not arguing their arent numerous differances between the two states, but that doesn't make one more real than the other any more than the differance in colour between the sky and the grass does.

hmm... i just reread your post and actually you never  exactly said any of the things im refuting. Silly me. However, other people tend to say things along those lines so ill post it anyways.

  :stoned: :stoned: :stoned:

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OfflinePed
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2888429 - 07/14/04 02:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

>> I am still struggling with the concept of how reality is internal and subjective. Yes, when I see an object I assign certain personal thoughts and interpretations to that object, and yes my sensory experience of that object depends on my senses. However, reality is consistent. If you leave something in the woods, I can go to that same spot and find it. Even though nobody was being aware of it, the object remained, and perhaps underwent physical changes, The object did exist independently of both of us, even if it did not exist in the way we normaly percieve it. People can agree on the physical nature of reality, we can agree on spacial dimensions, colors, textures, sounds, etc. all of these are consistent.

The problem here, I think, is that you are assuming your mind to be the same as your Self. Like all things, however, the self is a meaningless construct made up of ideas and discriminations. Those ideas and discriminations exist within your mind. Therefore, self and mind are not of the same nature. The mind encounters the self in the same way that it encounters all other objects: with knowledge.

Perhaps the best means of understanding how mind and reality are of the same nature is by understanding the many similarites between the two. The mind is a formless continuum which has it's dimension through space as well as time. It's nature is of perfect clarity. It is said that the a while glass is clear, it is not clear enough to know. The mind is clear enough to know. It's function is to perceive objects. The mind is always working to discriminate objects from eachother, to assemble order from no order, distinction from non-distinction. The mind is aggressive in this way: it is always working, even as we sleep, to generate ideas and discriminations for us to relate to. Reality, on the other hand, while identical in it's formless expansiveness through space and time, is but empty space. It is the blank, passive plain upon which an aggressive mind projects it's show. Now, don't misunderstand: this does not mean that mind can be separated from reality in the same way that a movie projector can be removed from the theater. Mind and reality are dynamically interlocked, and can never be separated from eachother.

Now, even if you don't believe so, please humor me and suppose for a moment that what I've said above is true. Consider the following questions. When you deposit an object in the woods, where is it that you are actually depositing it? Do the woods exist outside of your mind? Does the object exist outside of your mind? If so, how did you get there? How do you know that what you have is an object?

Of course, all of this begs the question: what of the universe prior to the life within it? This question is the product of a series of unfounded assumptions about mind and Self. These assumptions are: that the human brain is where the mind originates and resides, that each mind is as isolated as a tropical island with but one palm tree, and that the self, being the same as the mind, also originates and is isolated within the human brain.

What if none of this were true? Personally, I find it remarkable that this is such a widely accepted point of view. It is a point of view which cannot be verified, has little to no supporting evidence, and is typically propagated using circular reasoning, as though all of it were self-evident. How terribly unscientific. It is almost as bad as saying "the Bible is true because the Bible says so."

Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self. Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself? Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness?

Now, this is just an idea. It cannot be verified, nor does it have any supporting evidence. The only advantage this idea has over the point of view described above is that this idea is completely opposite to our conventional assumptions about ourselves and our world. That our conventional assumptions would bear resemblence to the way things actually are, this I find very unlikely. If we can understand that our present assumptions about mind and reality have no concrete basis, we should be able to examine our experience within the context of alternative perspectives.

And that has got to be entertainment more realistic than either the Xbox or the Playstation 2.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2888515 - 07/14/04 03:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self.  Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself?  Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness? 




Man, I've been having a lot of thoughts tonight, and this really struck a chord with me, considering what has been going through my, erm.. "mind"... :grin: I just have to say that I've always learned from you and I really appreciate you taking the time to post here and spread the knowledge, it has changed me so much, its unbelievable!  :laugh: :thumbup: :heart:

As far as the highly-ordered structures with the numerous connection points channeling the mind, consciousness... I just have to mention mycelium as another great example. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2888627 - 07/14/04 04:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I take issue with this....
"When we die, things move on. Whether you are alive or dead, things move on largely just the same as they would have. One day when all mankind is dead, the universe will still move on, as it has done before we showed up. We don't shape reality."

Every single thing you do and dont do shapes the entire universe and helps to make it what it will be. Even one breath changes everything. Just because the effects are not always noticable or immediate doesnt mean they arent there, or significant.

I may die tomorrow, just by dying i will have made one of the following days the day of my funeral. My death will likely impact the lives of my friends and family substantially. And it made that whole day into something it otherwise would not have been, not to mention the effects of every action or nonaction of that day and every day before it rippling thru the end of time, constantly effecting the state of the universe as a whole. So in my opinion one breath is significant...a life time of events is down right mind blowing.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Ped]
    #2890419 - 07/14/04 03:34 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>>

The problem here, I think, is that you are assuming your mind to be the same as your Self. Like all things, however, the self is a meaningless construct made up of ideas and discriminations. Those ideas and discriminations exist within your mind. Therefore, self and mind are not of the same nature. The mind encounters the self in the same way that it encounters all other objects: with knowledge.

Perhaps the best means of understanding how mind and reality are of the same nature is by understanding the many similarites between the two. The mind is a formless continuum which has it's dimension through space as well as time. It's nature is of perfect clarity. It is said that the a while glass is clear, it is not clear enough to know. The mind is clear enough to know. It's function is to perceive objects. The mind is always working to discriminate objects from eachother, to assemble order from no order, distinction from non-distinction. The mind is aggressive in this way: it is always working, even as we sleep, to generate ideas and discriminations for us to relate to. Reality, on the other hand, while identical in it's formless expansiveness through space and time, is but empty space. It is the blank, passive plain upon which an aggressive mind projects it's show. Now, don't misunderstand: this does not mean that mind can be separated from reality in the same way that a movie projector can be removed from the theater. Mind and reality are dynamically interlocked, and can never be separated from eachother.

Now, even if you don't believe so, please humor me and suppose for a moment that what I've said above is true. Consider the following questions. When you deposit an object in the woods, where is it that you are actually depositing it? Do the woods exist outside of your mind? Does the object exist outside of your mind? If so, how did you get there? How do you know that what you have is an object?

Of course, all of this begs the question: what of the universe prior to the life within it? This question is the product of a series of unfounded assumptions about mind and Self. These assumptions are: that the human brain is where the mind originates and resides, that each mind is as isolated as a tropical island with but one palm tree, and that the self, being the same as the mind, also originates and is isolated within the human brain.

What if none of this were true? Personally, I find it remarkable that this is such a widely accepted point of view. It is a point of view which cannot be verified, has little to no supporting evidence, and is typically propagated using circular reasoning, as though all of it were self-evident. How terribly unscientific. It is almost as bad as saying "the Bible is true because the Bible says so."

Perhaps the mind precludes the brain, the self. Perhaps it is true that highly organized systems such as the human brain, or for that matter the eco-system, the stock market, the internet, even some especially advanced computers, serve as extremely dense focal points through which a formless, timeless phenomenon such as the mind experiences itself? Would it not follow from this supposition that the self is merely a hallucination sustained by an insufficient awareness?

Now, this is just an idea. It cannot be verified, nor does it have any supporting evidence. The only advantage this idea has over the point of view described above is that this idea is completely opposite to our conventional assumptions about ourselves and our world. That our conventional assumptions would bear resemblence to the way things actually are, this I find very unlikely. If we can understand that our present assumptions about mind and reality have no concrete basis, we should be able to examine our experience within the context of alternative perspectives.





I still don't understand how this view can address certain consistencies of reality. For example an ancient civilization creates a shrine and it is lost and forgotten for 2,000 years. For all that time there was no person to observe or even concieve of the shrine. And yet, 2,000 years later somebody else who has never even heard of the object accidently finds it. The person takes it to a museum and it is only then that they discover what it is and bring it back into the continuim of mental knowledge. All of that time the object somehow remained in existence and endured physical change without any consciousness even thinking of it. And when it came back into human experience it was percieved by a different person with no knowledge of it. The object remains and undergoes change irregardless of individual consciousness.

If the mind projects reality, how is this possible?

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2891280 - 07/14/04 08:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"I may die tomorrow, just by dying i will have made one of the following days the day of my funeral. My death will likely impact the lives of my friends and family substantially. And it made that whole day into something it otherwise would not have been, not to mention the effects of every action or nonaction of that day and every day before it rippling thru the end of time, constantly effecting the state of the universe as a whole. So in my opinion one breath is significant...a life time of events is down right mind blowing."

Well.. obviously, dying does have consequences. But zoom out a bit. By and by large we're all incredibly insignificant. People die every day -- lots of people. If it's not you, it's someone else. Someone, somewhere, is always dying. So, yes, death does have an effect, but if your window is big enough any one particular death is largely unnoticable.
And through an even larger window, whether there ever was anything alive on this planet or not, the sun wouldn't care. Nor would the earth I wager -- it would continue spinning around. And even when the sun dies and turns into a cool dark ball of heavy-ish elements?
It's just a star. There are, if I can steal a mis-quote, billions and billions of stars in the universe.

That was my point, really. Reality itself -- the entirety of reality, not just that which we have seen or heard or experienced personally -- really doesn't give two shits about any of us. Reality exists of its own accord, completely apart from us. We only experience that which was already there, long before we came along, and which will remain long, long after we're all gone. It's only our own experience of reality that is dependent upon us.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2891779 - 07/14/04 11:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

We are reality, all of our actions affect it. Sure, on a cosmic scale we are small, but we are a part of something really big. Logicaly, all events have a cause, and all causes have other causes. Thus all events are interelated and all actions matter. Even we as people are a composite of various life experiences and mannerisms we picked up from other people; we are the effect of infinite causes. And as such, we are the cause of infinite effects. Think of the butterfly effect.

The idea that we create reality in even the most physical sense does not quiet add up to me, but we certainly are not seperate from it. Our reality is a product of the greater reality, so in effect the subjective human reality is a manifestation of the absolute. I think that means that in some way our lives do matter.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2892285 - 07/15/04 03:07 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I doubt its just my mind creating reality because I have experienced things and been to places that I don't believe my mind is creative enough to manufacture.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2892355 - 07/15/04 04:57 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Divided sky....
Its not so much that the mind projects reality into being, its more like all these realities already exist in a virtual sense, they all exist together in a state of quantum superposition. They are and are not both at the same time, then you observe/measure/interact, whatever term you wanna use..you disturb this state of quantum superpostion thus collapsing the wave function and bring one possibilities into being..but the catch is that mathmatically atleast all those unrealized virtual possibilities are equally real, whether they are observed or not..just not to us in the normal everyday way we think about what is "real"

The questions left to answer are.. what happens to the unrealized virtual possibilities? still there but like ghosts? realized in another universe..ect? once we observe something is it still real when we look away(from the standpoint of science and mathmatics)?(you have to realize that our perception of reality is innaccurate or incomplete at best, we only see a fraction of what is, and how it really is) is there some ultimate observer (god?) that made things "real" by observing/interacting before we got here, and does that entity keep them real when we arent looking? The thing is you have to remember all these virtual possibilities are just as real as the ones we call real, except we dont observe them.

Its as if everything that could happen is happening and its happening all at once, only we observe 1 line out of the almost infinate possible lines of causality/ or possibilities that are there. in a sense its like looking at a painting..you see the picture, but there is also the frame, the back of the canvas, the lil thingy that holds it on the wall, thats the "whole" but your just looking at the front of it..but the rest is still there, but to you it might as well not be, you cant see it or experience it, unless you observe differently, but you can only observe so much, so at any given moment you perception of the whole is utterly limited/incomplete/inaccurate...barring the possible experience of enlightenment, but while that moment may be pure..the its clouded by every moment after and before so thats probably why even "ultimate truth" is expressed by different people who may of experienced it in different ways.

The holographic theory might come into play here, since it states that just the surface of any 3 dimensional object contains enough information to recreate that entire object in 3 dimensions, for example you look at the cover of a book, there is enough info in what you can see to reconstruct the entire book, every page front and back, the binding and all. Like a hologram kinda.

You arent so much creating reality as a whole..you are the whole..an aspect of it anyways, you are simply actualizing one particular aspect of that whole/reality at any given moment, string those moments together and you have your precieved reality thru out your entire life, and because each of us only sees i sliver of the whole at any given time, and each persons perspective is different we SEEM to exist in our own little subjective reality...but in fact we are all experiencing different aspects of the one reality.. like im looking at the picture, your looking at the frame, some other guy is lookin at the back of the canvas..but its still just a picture hanging on a wall.

Really u if u wanna get down to it, this reality we are talking about is you..or you are just an aspect of it, so in a since whatever you experience, you are experiencing yourself, just a different aspect of that self at any given moment. Its hard to concieve but you are the creator of your own reality and you are that reality and that reality is all there is..only in our normal everyday experience we percieve only a very limited portion of the whole at any given moment, so it seems seperate, but it isnt.

Mushmonkey...

Some of all that above pertains to your statements also. I just dont understand how even when the smallest thing completely alters the whole thing you can call it inconsequential, reality is not independant of us...it is utterly dependant on us..it is us. You cant be apart of a system and still be seperate from the system. You change, then the system changes, if you were never there, then the system will be completely different, because even 1 small change means that it will be something utterly different then what it was. Yes elements will remain the same or similar but the whole is now a different whole then it was. Take the picture analogy i was using for instance...say u have a picture of a guy fishing from a boat in the middle of a lake...now erase the boat and the man...elements of the scene are the same, but the scene itself is completely different..no longer of a man fishing from a boat in a lake, now its just a picture of a lake. To me thats a huge difference, maybe it isnt to you. Its hard to say exactly what i want because the concepts are beyond language..language barely describes what im trying to here.

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2895388 - 07/15/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"Some of all that above pertains to your statements also. I just dont understand how even when the smallest thing completely alters the whole thing you can call it inconsequential, reality is not independant of us...it is utterly dependant on us..it is us. You cant be apart of a system and still be seperate from the system. You change, then the system changes, if you were never there, then the system will be completely different, because even 1 small change means that it will be something utterly different then what it was. Yes elements will remain the same or similar but the whole is now a different whole then it was. Take the picture analogy i was using for instance...say u have a picture of a guy fishing from a boat in the middle of a lake...now erase the boat and the man...elements of the scene are the same, but the scene itself is completely different..no longer of a man fishing from a boat in a lake, now its just a picture of a lake. To me thats a huge difference, maybe it isnt to you. Its hard to say exactly what i want because the concepts are beyond language..language barely describes what im trying to here."

To steal your painting analogy..

The painting exists. I'm a tiny dot of red. If I'm around, the painting has a tiny dot of red, somewhere, and if not, that particular tiny dot of red isn't there.

The painting is still a painting, and will always be a painting, no matter what colors you put on it, no matter what their organization, no matter how plentiful they are.

The painting exists, and exists totally independently of any particular tiny dot of paint.

The tiny dot of paint doesn't create the painting, it merely experiences what was already there.

I think perhaps my usage of 'reality' might be a confusing point here. I don't mean my reality or your reality -- I don't like to use the term in that way. When I use reality, it's to denote an absollute, objective thing in which we all live. My reality, is simply my own life, as your reality is your life. They may interact, they may be totally different, and they may change, but we're all stuck inside a giant auditorium called reality.

Things can change, but they are still things. Reality is about the most non-specific thing you can mention -- a rose is a flower, and a dandilion is a flower. Switch their colors and they are still flowers. Switch their names, and they are still flowers. Cover them in shit, and they're still flowers.. albeit, stinky, discolored, possibly destroyed flowers, but flowers they remain. Reality remains, even if there would be no one around to observe it, and no matter what form or shape it might take.. it is only our experience of our particular parts of reality that changes. That, yes, is fluid and changing; reality itself isn't a temporal, fluid thing, as it would be if it were a dream.

And, if it is a dream (something that, just as the existence of god, is as impossible to disprove as it is to prove, and something that by the very fact that it can never be answered attracts believers), it still would not matter because it is not my dream, nor is it your dream; whoever's dream it might be has obviously set things solidly in place. And, let's even say things do change, and tomorrow the sky's purple with pink polka-dots.. as in any good dream, the change would not be perceptable to the bit players. that would be us. we would simply continue on as if whatever change might take place, has always been that way.. and therefor, whatever you believe, it still remains the same. it's as real as it gets, even if it is just a dream, because it is not our dream -- it is not something that we can control or alter in any crazy, mystical way. Only with our two hands or our mouths can we change things, and only in the slow, boring ways that we are accustomed to.

the only great awakening we have to look forward to is not a mystical, religious sort of thing in which we realize things are malleable by nothing but our thoughts and will, but rather an earthy brotherhood sort of thing in which we realize that things ARE shaped by what we say and do, and if we don't like the world we live in the only way to improve it is to make things better for everyone, is to do our best to not cause others undue discomfort.


a;lsdkfj i rant too much im goin to sleep

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InvisibleAbstractHarmonix
Love is like a train...
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2895609 - 07/15/04 11:54 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It's all about what you are able to perceive.

In saying this I mean :

I have been born with eyes. These eyes are broad eyes of an infinite spectrum of vision. To the point of where I have suprisingly wished for the ignorance, the narrowness back. The narrow road seemed much more clear, the weeds and brush have been removed from your thinking, and establish the initial 'programming'. This is me succumbing to my lack of clarity and realization for those moments.
These eyes notice the oil/abstract brush strokes of the picture my mind establishes/paints mentally, and the way it is perceived. These eyes see beyond what is happening in this picture, to analyze the picture in its Self, for the first place. My eyes see the same things your eyes see, but as soon as our minds start to process what we are visualing, our perseptive perception is altered instantly. This is why my mind DOES create my own reality.

I have been born with ears. These are the same mammel mechanics of your ears. These ears hear what they want to hear, as do everyones. I say this in meaning...everytime you here a sound (a click, tick, tat, boom, bing, doink) it is programmed to relate it to something. Assumption. Expectation. This is where our minds create our realities. (wait I know what you are thinking, reality is what has literally and scientifically been proven true? I dont think so, I think that is just for number comfort...what about the uncertainty?)

I have been born with a mouth. The words I say come straight from the mind. The transcendental truth of 'things'. Yet only truthful for I, for when you recieve the information through your ears, from my mouth, to your mind...around the assumptions, questions, and expectations obstacle quarry, it is a whole new truth and understand. A completely different concept. (This is also in relation with knowledge from reading, for errors occur through everyone, and one error by the writer, sends the reader a wrong impression, of who relays it back to their mentor of which the book report is due, and all the mentor says is "this was about cheese, not peanut butter."

I was born with a mind. As well were you. The receptor, the translator, the-all-powerful Self of which is you, and me, and you too buddy! This is where my reality happens, for my reality differs from anyone else's. The perceptive perception of the world around me is just as false or true as anything.

I was born to express - through mind, body, and soul.

The mind - perceives and creates my personal reality
The body - paints the picture my reality endures for the moment, through my fingertips I can release positive energies spinnin' around, how do I not dizzy and fall down? "Imagine your brain as a canister filled with ink, yeah, now think of your body as where the ink resides... you can paint whatever picture you like."
The soul - is my canvas. Without the basis, the centre, the Self, the soul, there is no complete onesness between the mind and body.

In conclusion, and in my reality, I don't look at the spectrum as being part of a reality, but observing, creating, and percieving my own. For I am a dot, but not a dot of reality, I am a dot of oneness and universal love and humanitarianism (that goes for other animals as well). Every animal experiences their own reality, and make the choice of how to react.
No matter how you worry about the things of today, the same thing is destined for tomorrow.
I try not to alter with the natual way of things. I let the wind guide me, and let the fire ignite me, and let the water replenish me, and let the earth keep me grounded.

Now remember, don't take anything I say too seriously, because you, for the most part, have no clue what I just said, yet you undoubtedly understood what you just read. (I think this is the effect of prolonged salvia-tract usage on the brain...:-)

**I know the relevance of this post isn't too clear, but that's how I like, sorry for the drifting, I just didnt ignore it.

***Alright, no proofing, Im just gonna post this bad boy. Very needed paint-spillage in my case. Thank you friends for trying to paint this disasterous spillage on your own mental canvas.


--------------------
A plethora of music aspirations control my temptations of future revelations beyond "now". The percussion, and the heart beat of my love and devotion. The rhythm goes beyond, prying into the third eye, releasing the creativity held so far inside. The melodicies, through the out of tune pianos and broken classical guitars...there lies a beauty. A beauty as prevelent as the fire inside. To release these energies is pure ecstacy, to deveop these gifts is sacred. The vocality, so pure as can be, shying away from herself, lies within me. For the underlying serenitity, this is what I live for. I plea for harmony, and nothing more. Music equals love. Creation of love leads to the procreativity of the World, and it's spirals and puddles prevailing.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Strumpling]
    #2896023 - 07/16/04 03:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

the tv screen produces an image derived from cameras
&
processing

by the time we see it, it is totally processed, can't separate the original from the processed result.

same with mind.

by the time we experience the world it is impossible to separate out the original sensations from the numinous enhancements.

in such a way the world and we are one ongoing production.

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2896083 - 07/16/04 04:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Mush.. if all your saying is that there will still be a reality of some kind even if we (in this form) are not here, dead or never existed then ya, there will be..but it wont be the same, and to me that is significant especially when 1 person can have an affect on reality like i illustrated in my other post...thats all im saying.

As for mystical experiences, i've had a couple of those and they were extremely profoud, though they along with other knowledge and experience lead me to believe that we are part of a greater whole, that fundamentally everything is the samething, and it is the one thing, and that is all there is. And in this experience of that, what we call our lives, we have no personal free will. If you do something with out a cause, then at best its randomn or spontaneous and you cant exercise your will on either of those, and if something caused you to do something or not do something, then you were caused, u didnt choose, but if you want to get into freewill go to the freewill is bs post i wrote awhile back.

I agree that things are shaped by what we say and do, i just believe and see zero evidence for us being able to do anything other then what we did at any given moment, given the circumstances surrounding that moment, then all those prior circumstance along with what ever we did make up the next set of circumstances that cause the next action and so on... every effect has a cause and every effect of a cause is in turn another cause in itself. The whole and its collective conscience if it has one may have free will, and in that since as being it, and it us, we would also have it, but we cant exercise it in this form/life. We are subject to the will of the system, as agents of the system, as the system itself and must do the will of the system. At best we can only be aware somewhat of what is happening and if we are lucky why its happening but we cant do anything else except what we must do.

Another approach to your arguement might be this...

If you agree that reality is one thing, and that it is the only thing, and we are it, or atleast an aspect of it, then that still means we are it, so if i wasnt here and i am the "one" then the one cant be here either thus reality/the whole/ system whatever u call it wouldnt be here. Even when i die im still here, all the energy and matter that made me up continues. Hell my conscience in some form or another might go on in some place or another, but that place no matter where it is will still be a part of the whole. it has always been here in one form or another and will always be here till the end of time, if time even exists and isnt just a perceptial illusion based on our incomplete experience of reality(ourselves) as whole, thus producing what seems to be a sequence of events, an unfolding of something but really it all just is, and always has been, always will be and no unfolding at all. A wave is an aspect of an ocean..but the wave is still the ocean, and in that sense we are reality, if we werent here it wouldnt exist. no wave no ocean(a wave is an inherent feature of an ocean), no ocean no wave, u need water for both, no water u get neither. We are not a single drop of water, so you cant say just remove a drop and u still have some water, water is a flawed analogy because it consists of different parts, the whole, is the samething, 1 thing, and completely so, it cant be seperated from itself or it wouldnt be itself. I dont if im getting my point accross, i can concieve this, but finding an accurate way to describe the conception is impossible. Language fails again.

Oh and lastly, just a lil extra thing i'll throw in here, being able to prove the existance of god is quite contingent on how u define god. If i define the universe/system as god, then we can prove that god exists about as well as we can prove anything. (though that might not be saying much)

Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

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OfflineSource
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
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Registered: 07/28/03
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Re: your mind COULD be creating reality [Re: AbstractHarmonix]
    #2899128 - 07/17/04 03:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ares,

That was prefectly clear to me. You know, you are getting very, very close to it? You must continue teaching because you teach from experience, unlike far too many.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

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