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BrendanFlock
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28774724 - 05/15/24 12:36 AM (1 month, 12 days ago) |
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If you believe in immortality than that is the first step..
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28775562 - 05/15/24 06:17 PM (1 month, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said: Let's dance in style, let's dance for a while Heaven can wait, we're only watching the skies Hoping for the best but expecting the worst Are you gonna drop the bomb or not? Let us die young or let us live forever We don't have the power but we never say never Sitting in a sandpit, life is a short trip The music's for the sad men Can you imagine when this race is won Turn our golden faces into the sun Praising our leaders, we're getting in tune The music's played by the, the mad man Forever young I want to be forever young Do you really want to live forever? Forever, and ever Forever young I want to be forever young Do you really want to live forever? Forever young
Without a wrinkle in today 'Cause there is no tomorrow Just some picture perfect day To last a whole lifetime And it never ends 'Cause all we have to do is hit rewind So lets stay in the moment, smoke some weed, drink some wine Reminisce, talk some shit, forever young is in your mind Leave a mark that can't erase, neither space nor time So when the director yells cut I'll be fine I'm forever young
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BrendanFlock
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28777055 - 05/16/24 11:45 PM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said: I'm... Just going to type this next paragraph as though reincarnation is absolute fact it's just a stylistic choice.
I would just love to keep this brain forever but I would never want to live forever. I need a new body every 40 or 80 years. I don't think eternal life could ever be "exhausting" as we are blessed with death. No matter how old your soul gets it will never be exhausted.
More so than remembering... but reliving your life in its totality..?
That would be very š“
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28777070 - 05/17/24 12:19 AM (1 month, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Quote:
robhr said: I'm... Just going to type this next paragraph as though reincarnation is absolute fact it's just a stylistic choice.
I would just love to keep this brain forever but I would never want to live forever. I need a new body every 40 or 80 years. I don't think eternal life could ever be "exhausting" as we are blessed with death. No matter how old your soul gets it will never be exhausted.
More so than remembering... but reliving your life in its totality..?
That would be very š“
I wouldn't mind, like, catching glimpses of my past lives but if I'm living forever and ever getting the whole damn thing would probably fry my brain I wouldn't want to relive my eternity.
But I would like to know what I did in my past life to get my current karma.
I know what I did. I raped. Just absurd ridiculous amounts of rape in my life karma is obviously teaching me something about rape.
Don't worry I'm fixed I don't do that kind of thing anymore.
But I don't believe we can catch glimpses of lives that are long gone anyway. I don't believe information can just exist in the air, I don't believe your soul can store information and memories only spark of personality. The most recent life, though, as some people from that life are probably still alive.
Edited by robhr (05/17/24 12:24 AM)
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28778130 - 05/17/24 11:25 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Quote:
robhr said: I'm... Just going to type this next paragraph as though reincarnation is absolute fact it's just a stylistic choice.
I would just love to keep this brain forever but I would never want to live forever. I need a new body every 40 or 80 years. I don't think eternal life could ever be "exhausting" as we are blessed with death. No matter how old your soul gets it will never be exhausted.
More so than remembering... but reliving your life in its totality..?
That would be very š“
I wouldn't mind, like, catching glimpses of my past lives but if I'm living forever and ever getting the whole damn thing would probably fry my brain I wouldn't want to relive my eternity.
What if you relived the entirely of your life repeatedly? Including the fact that, each time around, you wouldn't know how it ends - you'd live it out the same each time.
This is the thought experiment proposed by Nietzsche, who thinks that if we can accept and want the entirely of our life to return the way it is, that means we embrace life fully. According to Nietzsche we should will the 'eternal return' of our life. Later works of Nietzsche makes it seem like he believed an eternal return might be true on a metaphysical level.
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: CreonAntigone]
#28778136 - 05/17/24 11:35 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Quote:
robhr said: I'm... Just going to type this next paragraph as though reincarnation is absolute fact it's just a stylistic choice.
I would just love to keep this brain forever but I would never want to live forever. I need a new body every 40 or 80 years. I don't think eternal life could ever be "exhausting" as we are blessed with death. No matter how old your soul gets it will never be exhausted.
More so than remembering... but reliving your life in its totality..?
That would be very š“
I wouldn't mind, like, catching glimpses of my past lives but if I'm living forever and ever getting the whole damn thing would probably fry my brain I wouldn't want to relive my eternity.
What if you relived the entirely of your life repeatedly? Including the fact that, each time around, you wouldn't know how it ends - you'd live it out the same each time.
This is the thought experiment proposed by Nietzsche, who thinks that if we can accept and want the entirely of our life to return the way it is, that means we embrace life fully. According to Nietzsche we should will the 'eternal return' of our life. Later works of Nietzsche makes it seem like he believed an eternal return might be true on a metaphysical level.
So I'm, like, in a loop? Aahh! Horrifying.
I mean I like my life, but... Horrifying.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 28,069
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28778144 - 05/17/24 11:57 PM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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If there's a loop, I'm certain there's also a loophole.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28778152 - 05/18/24 12:02 AM (1 month, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If there's a loop, I'm certain there's also a loophole.
It would be a pretty silly reality. For no reason God traps us in a loop and we just have to figure out how to escape. Very very bizarre and cruel reality.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28778658 - 05/18/24 12:29 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If there's a loop, I'm certain there's also a loophole.
It would be a pretty silly reality. For no reason God traps us in a loop and we just have to figure out how to escape. Very very bizarre and cruel reality.
Such is what the Hindus believed in a way. The wheel of samsara makes all human life somewhat monotonous. The whole world is an illusion, and we are chained to a fake reality. Only the proper sort of meditation in Brahma provides an escape from the suffering found within the temporal world.
While that may be bizarre and cruel, it is an accurate depiction of what a world might be like that had God as a creator. Since, to me at least, the world doesn't provide any such definitive evidence that God, if he existed, would be good. Why would God, for example, create cancer in children or natural disasters, things that can't even be justified from the perspective of a moral test? What's the moral purpose of childhood leukemia?
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spinvis
Stranger


Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 876
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: CreonAntigone] 1
#28778697 - 05/18/24 01:12 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Watts;
To object to this inseparability of pleasure and pain, life and death, is to object to existence. But, of course, we cannot help objecting when our time comes. Objecting to pain is pain.
Quote:
The Chinese word for natureāthey call zƬrĆ”n (čŖē¶). And this expression means āof itself, so;ā āwhat happens of itself.ā Or we might say āspontaneity.ā It almost means āautomatic,ā because automatic is what is self-moving. Only, we associate the word āautomaticā with machinery. But zƬrĆ”n, what is so of itself, is associated in the Chinese mind not with machinery but with biology. Your hair grows by itself, you donāt have to think how to grow it. Your heart beats by itself, you donāt have to make up your mind how to beat it. Thatās what they mean by ānature.ā
Scary stuff not being the one in control
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: CreonAntigone]
#28778715 - 05/18/24 01:27 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If there's a loop, I'm certain there's also a loophole.
It would be a pretty silly reality. For no reason God traps us in a loop and we just have to figure out how to escape. Very very bizarre and cruel reality.
Such is what the Hindus believed in a way. The wheel of samsara makes all human life somewhat monotonous. The whole world is an illusion, and we are chained to a fake reality. Only the proper sort of meditation in Brahma provides an escape from the suffering found within the temporal world.
While that may be bizarre and cruel, it is an accurate depiction of what a world might be like that had God as a creator. Since, to me at least, the world doesn't provide any such definitive evidence that God, if he existed, would be good. Why would God, for example, create cancer in children or natural disasters, things that can't even be justified from the perspective of a moral test? What's the moral purpose of childhood leukemia?
I mean if it is a deliberate God who deliberately gives you cancer and natural disasters I can see why you would think God could be so fucked up that it would just trap us in a time loop illusionary reality for the sole purposes of fucking with us.
I don't believe in a deliberate God. I don't believe in a God who deliberately created all of existence and then deliberately set the rules so that we have hurricanes and cancer. I believe hurricanes and cancer were just the only way reality could be. The rules of existence just are because it is the only way they could be, not because they were deliberately set by a fucked up deliberate God who only wants to fuck with us.
But no I don't believe this indeliberate God is a force of pure good either I believe it is right in the middle between good and evil, true neutral.
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KevinDontWave
Kiwi Cat



Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 1,791
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr] 1
#28778726 - 05/18/24 01:43 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
The Blind Ass said: If there's a loop, I'm certain there's also a loophole.
It would be a pretty silly reality. For no reason God traps us in a loop and we just have to figure out how to escape. Very very bizarre and cruel reality.
Such is what the Hindus believed in a way. The wheel of samsara makes all human life somewhat monotonous. The whole world is an illusion, and we are chained to a fake reality. Only the proper sort of meditation in Brahma provides an escape from the suffering found within the temporal world.
While that may be bizarre and cruel, it is an accurate depiction of what a world might be like that had God as a creator. Since, to me at least, the world doesn't provide any such definitive evidence that God, if he existed, would be good. Why would God, for example, create cancer in children or natural disasters, things that can't even be justified from the perspective of a moral test? What's the moral purpose of childhood leukemia?
I mean if it is a deliberate God who deliberately gives you cancer and natural disasters I can see why you would think God could be so fucked up that it would just trap us in a time loop illusionary reality for the sole purposes of fucking with us.
I don't believe in a deliberate God. I don't believe in a God who deliberately created all of existence and then deliberately set the rules so that we have hurricanes and cancer. I believe hurricanes and cancer were just the only way reality could be. The rules of existence just are because it is the only way they could be, not because they were deliberately set by a fucked up deliberate God who only wants to fuck with us.
But no I don't believe this indeliberate God is a force of pure good either I believe it is right in the middle between good and evil, true neutral.
God as a concept is pretty confounding to me. The personified version of God seems like a projection of human needs and wants. The indeliberate version seems to just be the natural world to a point where I don't understand the urge to use the name God. Why be so broad when you can be specific?
--------------------
      Pigs treat us as equals. Never wrestle with pigs.
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: KevinDontWave]
#28778736 - 05/18/24 02:00 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
God as a concept is pretty confounding to me. The personified version of God seems like a projection of human needs and wants. The indeliberate version seems to just be the natural world to a point where I don't understand the urge to use the name God. Why be so broad when you can be specific?
Well, how are you looking at this natural world? Do you look at it as a bunch of random objects floating around in space and events happening randomly for no reason? If so then I guess you just don't believe in God and I do oh well.
Do you look at it like things are meaningful? Things happen for a reason? Then "God" is the word we use to describe that. I suppose Christianity may be making you look at the word "God" differently than I look at the word "God."
If you believe reality is guided in any way whatsoever then the word we use to describe what is happening is "God."
If in your head God must be the deliberate creator who does everything deliberately then we just need to make you look at the word differently.
Edited by robhr (05/18/24 03:54 PM)
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: KevinDontWave]
#28778833 - 05/18/24 03:32 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
KevinDontWave said: God as a concept is pretty confounding to me. The personified version of God seems like a projection of human needs and wants. The indeliberate version seems to just be the natural world to a point where I don't understand the urge to use the name God. Why be so broad when you can be specific?
The sociologist of religion would say the concept of God originated when they named difficult natural phenomena - the sun is more powerful than man and controls his day, so it was called 'God'. Similarly the rain and the earth, which could take away the entire harvest or bring it into being.
And then there were Gods that were derived from a powerful tribal lord, who sort of got grandfathered into a divine role - in that case the relation of a human to a god is similar to a relationship of kingly domination, with us having the serve the warrior-god's power. Maui is one such individual, a god who may have been based on a person.
The christian god, as a single being that is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc, developed only rather recently in the human condition. God was before just a way to explain nature and infuse some human way of relating to the things that are beyond our power and thus, scary. Many many gods was much more typical than one, since many powers control human lives. Many gods were political, and there was one god that served each city and might've helped its power and 'did them favors'. But in every case, it appears to me that people are dealing with uncertainty (e.g., will the crops grow, will we win the war) and they appeal to God to provide them with confidence that they can do it, that they are inspired. This confidence then might make them succeed, which will then be retroactively attributed to divine powers.
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Yuggoth
Mi-Go Cultivator


Registered: 03/04/23
Posts: 558
Loc: Lost Carcosa
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28779044 - 05/18/24 06:42 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said: Well, how are you looking at this natural world? Do you look at it as a bunch of random objects floating around in space and events happening randomly for no reason?
That's a bingo.
Heck, if someone could prove to me there was a God I'd kind of feel like it was our duty to take Him out and free ourselves.
-------------------- We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: Yuggoth]
#28779058 - 05/18/24 06:51 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Yuggoth said:
Quote:
robhr said: Well, how are you looking at this natural world? Do you look at it as a bunch of random objects floating around in space and events happening randomly for no reason?
That's a bingo.
Heck, if someone could prove to me there was a God I'd kind of feel like it was our duty to take Him out and free ourselves.
Iām sorry Iām sorry Iām sorry I just canāt stop belittling atheism I assure you I respect it more than following any and all organized religion.
I sorta used to think the universe was a big stupid thing that just exploded for no reason too. I even used to be angry at the potential concept of God for āgivingā us this reality too. I just canāt do either of these things anymore.
But letās explore why you would be angry at this potential god. What angers you about the reality we have been āgiven?ā
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KevinDontWave
Kiwi Cat



Registered: 08/22/09
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28779144 - 05/18/24 07:43 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
God as a concept is pretty confounding to me. The personified version of God seems like a projection of human needs and wants. The indeliberate version seems to just be the natural world to a point where I don't understand the urge to use the name God. Why be so broad when you can be specific?
Well, how are you looking at this natural world? Do you look at it as a bunch of random objects floating around in space and events happening randomly for no reason? If so then I guess you just don't believe in God and I do oh well.
Do you look at it like things are meaningful? Things happen for a reason? Then "God" is the word we use to describe that. I suppose Christianity may be making you look at the word "God" differently than I look at the word "God."
If you believe reality is guided in any way whatsoever then the word we use to describe what is happening is "God."
If in your head God must be the deliberate creator who does everything deliberately then we just need to make you look at the word differently.
These questions seem pretty loaded to me but I guess I fall somewhere between option one and two but with several caveats. I do believe that the universe is comprised of a giant series of cause and effect, action and reaction events that are governed by the laws that bind this physical realm.
I don't thing's have inherent meaning beyond the meaning instilled by that which perceives the thing. I do think that things happen for a reason but that reason is simple cause and effect.
I don't personally believe that reality is guided by anything beyond the aforementioned laws of nature. But if there is some sort of entity guiding reality I'm certainly not convinced it's benevolent or even has the capacity to care on a human scale. Which is where my fascination really starts. From my perspective it seems like the concept of God is one that soothes some grand cosmic anxiety but is largely wishful thinking. But I honestly feel like I'm surrounded by magical thinking everywhere.
--------------------
      Pigs treat us as equals. Never wrestle with pigs.
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robhr
Come on die young!


Registered: 05/04/24
Posts: 188
Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
Last seen: 7 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: KevinDontWave]
#28779213 - 05/18/24 08:39 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
KevinDontWave said:
Quote:
robhr said:
Quote:
God as a concept is pretty confounding to me. The personified version of God seems like a projection of human needs and wants. The indeliberate version seems to just be the natural world to a point where I don't understand the urge to use the name God. Why be so broad when you can be specific?
Well, how are you looking at this natural world? Do you look at it as a bunch of random objects floating around in space and events happening randomly for no reason? If so then I guess you just don't believe in God and I do oh well.
Do you look at it like things are meaningful? Things happen for a reason? Then "God" is the word we use to describe that. I suppose Christianity may be making you look at the word "God" differently than I look at the word "God."
If you believe reality is guided in any way whatsoever then the word we use to describe what is happening is "God."
If in your head God must be the deliberate creator who does everything deliberately then we just need to make you look at the word differently.
These questions seem pretty loaded to me but I guess I fall somewhere between option one and two but with several caveats. I do believe that the universe is comprised of a giant series of cause and effect, action and reaction events that are governed by the laws that bind this physical realm.
I don't thing's have inherent meaning beyond the meaning instilled by that which perceives the thing. I do think that things happen for a reason but that reason is simple cause and effect.
I don't personally believe that reality is guided by anything beyond the aforementioned laws of nature. But if there is some sort of entity guiding reality I'm certainly not convinced it's benevolent or even has the capacity to care on a human scale. Which is where my fascination really starts. From my perspective it seems like the concept of God is one that soothes some grand cosmic anxiety but is largely wishful thinking. But I honestly feel like I'm surrounded by magical thinking everywhere.
Yes yes you will find my questions are always loaded. I was not subtle about it I didnāt mean to make them āseemā loaded I meant to belittle atheism.
Your definition of cause and effect. Are we talking karmic or just basic laws of reality? A belief in karmic cause and effect that is not conscious is perfectly respectable to me. I believe it is conscious but if you donāt whatever.
I believe this force ācaresā but of course not like we do. I donāt think it has the capacity to hate or anything like that only recognize and respond. I believe it is largely indifferent to all of us and our piddly little problems. I do not believe it is fully benevolent in the sense that it only wants to do good, like I had said, half way between good and evil. In order to properly recognize and respond you must be very very evil.
I donāt care for the only meaning is the meaning we give, however, I believe in inherent objective meaning.
My god doesnāt give me hope in the same sense the Christian god does. While I do pathetically cling to āeverything will be okay because Godās plan Godās plan everything will be just fine because Godās plan everything will be okay everything will be okay.ā It is not the same version of the Christian godās plan, just⦠The sense that no matter how deep darkness runs itās fine itās only darkness.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: robhr]
#28779338 - 05/18/24 10:24 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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Robhr have you read the stoics? I think you'd find their conception of god interesting, as well as the moral implications they draw.
Their concept of god is much more 'deliberate' than the one you said, but also seemingly disinterested in little problems and impersonal. The stoics say we should actually forget about, and not react to, the problems that happen outside in the world - including the possibility of death or banishment. We should only react to things that matter for our moral development or things we can fully control. The god, in their case kind of like a superintendent of the universe, has worked everything out just so and we should accept the plan whatever it has for us. Their consolation is that you always retain your right to make moral judgements and to control your reactions to things, even if the outcome seems 'bad'.
Epictetus at one point wonders whether the god was incapable of giving humans more control over their lives - if he could or couldn't have helped us avoid being always subject to contingency. But he concludes that what humans are given control of is enough, their sense of moral decision-making. So we should focus on that and not the events of the world - everything is always perpetually as it should be.
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don_peludo81
Stranger


Registered: 05/12/24
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Re: How do you cope with the idea of death? (Especially as an atheist) [Re: CreonAntigone]
#28779359 - 05/18/24 11:21 PM (1 month, 8 days ago) |
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God is the balance between trying to understand the universe through our own means of discovery, and... believing that the universe we are witnessing is ourselves, hence we are the universe making this reality exist and transform. It is living consciousness unbound by concepts. I am that I am.
It baffles me how many people who have been through the veil of "reality" and into the space beyond senses thanks to psychedelics, can't grasp that GOD is beyond any specific religion or book. Its beyond existence, outside of this entropy hungry universe.
Thats why Slartibarfast's words are so true once you understand your roles as worldbuilders... "I'd rather be happy than right" ... meaning that all those concepts to explain the unreachable explanation, don't cut it, because you exist just to feel the Grace of Loving Kindness.
TLDR; take it slow, enjoy every second of life you get, be grateful, and love existance because its fleeting.
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