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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Moore lied! (again)
    #2877603 - 07/11/04 08:41 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)



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Offlineblu3
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/05/04
Posts: 2,546
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2878052 - 07/11/04 12:32 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

sounds to me that its Daschles word against moore

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Invisibleshriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2878115 - 07/11/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

this is just a case of normal male behavior. some men lie about how many girl they have been to bed with, moore lie about how many senators he has hugged. its no big deal. i dont think it goes into the category lie either,

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: shriek]
    #2878251 - 07/11/04 02:20 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

some men lie about how many girl they have been to bed with

Um, about 623...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 34,267
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 6 hours, 51 minutes
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2878270 - 07/11/04 02:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sure more about this situation will surface in the coming months. Let's not jump to conclusions.

My question is, is were there witnesses or photographs that can coroborate either side of the story. If cameras were present at the time of the supposed hug, then we could settle this for sure.

Someone had to have seen the hug take place or not take place.






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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2882561 - 07/12/04 02:23 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

suckers....


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Offlineel_duderino
His Dudeness
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/22/04
Posts: 407
Loc: 'stralia
Last seen: 8 months, 5 days
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2919506 - 07/23/04 05:15 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

meh! Michael Moore is great! and pretty damn funny! Too bad he's a lying shmuck that makes up facts and statistics and edits and cuts, takes things out of context etc... in true propaganda style. I like his side of the argument but unfortunately it's still propaganda. A Spin master he is, working with humour and manipulating your emotions....

but he's a funny guy still!

btw i haven't actually looked at the link u posted :smile:

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OfflinePhishgrrl
Walking in thetall trees...
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Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 5,079
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2921267 - 07/23/04 04:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

hmmmmmmm shall we count how many times "the president" has lied? About serious things? Naaaaaahhhhhhh I don't have the time.


--------------------
Once in awhile you can get shown the light

In the strangest of places if you look at it right...


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Offlineshaman2b
Just anotherfreethinker
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Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 174
Loc: in my head
Last seen: 4 years, 23 days
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2921416 - 07/23/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well, el duderino, you obviously can't identify spin.... it's all that the Bush crime family has been slinging since they got into office. 

Do your homework.  :mad2:

While you're busy being distracted by tabloid news, they're stealing our democracy.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phishgrrl]
    #2921581 - 07/23/04 05:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phishgrrl said:
hmmmmmmm shall we count how many times "the president" has lied? About serious things? Naaaaaahhhhhhh I don't have the time.



Surely you meant to say.... shall we count how many times people have claimed he lied?

Funny how those that claim he did so can't back up those claims.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2921600 - 07/23/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Main Entry: 3lie
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression

http://www.pantsonfire.net/lies.htm

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Tao]
    #2921625 - 07/23/04 06:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:rotfl:

So yet again, you couldn't just say... Yup, those claims can't be backed up.

Damn shame.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Tao]
    #2921697 - 07/23/04 06:26 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

2 : to create a false or misleading impression

while i have no desire to get into this little discussion, i gotta say that i think that definition is a little off. it looks like i'm gonna have to...

for something to must be a lie, there must be willful dishonest intent. one must either say something one knows to be untrue, or make a commitment one willfully fails to follow up on.

when stephen hawking claimed that information about the matter in a black hole never leaves it, a claim contested by other physicists and which he recently retracted, he was not lying. when aristotle said that the earth was the center of the universe, he was not lying.

merely "creating a false or misleading impression" is not a lie. for it to be a lie, one must do so with dishonest intent. if we examine michael moore's track record, it is clear that on several occasions he has not only created a "false or misleading impression" but also known that he was as he was doing so. he created a false impression... with deliberate dishonest intent. he lied.

whether bush intentionally mislead the nation (about iraq in particular) is something i really can't tell ya. considering the political fallout of finding no WMD's, the information provided to him before the war, and his own (lack of) intellect, i'd say that there's a damn good chance that he believed everything he told the public about the case for war against hussein. however, i really don't know, and neither does anyone else who is out there claiming that "bush lied".

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2921723 - 07/23/04 06:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2921900 - 07/23/04 07:32 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Logic applied with an unavoidable conclusion.  Yet, it's conservatives who are mindless. :rolleyes:


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2922014 - 07/23/04 08:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

back what up? I never said anything.

and MM, youre beef is with Merriam-Webster, not me.

my point is that just because he adds a passing-the-buck sort of qualifier "intelligence officials say...." does not mean that he is not trying to decieve.

anyway how much more in your face does it need to get that he was trying his damnest to conjure up a reason for going into iraq because he didnt want to tell the public his real reasons (neo-con fantasies) because they're too hard too defend. Iran always presented more of a threat both in building nuclear facilities and in harboring/funding terrorists than Iraq ever did. Yet he purposefully never mentioned evidence they had about iran but kept stressing iraq. oh yeah, and what about N. Korea?

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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2922354 - 07/23/04 10:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Phishgrrl said:
hmmmmmmm shall we count how many times "the president" has lied? About serious things? Naaaaaahhhhhhh I don't have the time.



Surely you meant to say.... shall we count how many times people have claimed he lied?

Funny how those that claim he did so can't back up those claims.




Topic: Afghanistan
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 10/11/2002


Quote/Claim:
"We're helping Afghanistan to claim its democratic future, and we're helping that nation to establish public order and safety...We will stay the course to help that country develop " [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"This effort may fail. It will not fail because of a lack of desire, a lack of commitment by millions of Afghans, or a lack of bravery....Instead, it may fail because the administration has been unwilling to recognize the magnitude of the threats which we face and to direct sufficient political, military and financial resources to overcome them." - Testimony by Mark L. Schneider, Sr. Vice President, International Crisis Group, to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on ?Afghanistan ? Continuing Challenges,? 5/12/04

Topic: Civil Liberties
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 10/28/2003


Quote/Claim:
?We welcome Muslims in our country.? [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
In August of 2002, the Justice Department promulgated a regulation that required men residing in the United States on temporary visas from 25 predominately Muslim countries to meet ?special registration requirements.? Since that time, over 82,000 Muslim men have been photographed, fingerprinted and subjected to interrogation. - Registration and Monitoring of Certain Non-immigrants, 67 Fed. Reg. 155, 8/02 and Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, Assessing the New Normal 38, 9/03

Topic: Classified Information
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 10/9/2001


Quote/Claim:
"We can't have leaks of classified information. It's not in our nation's interest." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"Bob Woodward said President Bush gave two reporters 90 minutes, often speaking candidly about classified information." - Providence Journal, 4/10/02

Topic: Compassion
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 1/28/2003


Quote/Claim:
"Americans are doing the work of compassion every day -- visiting prisoners, providing shelter for battered women, bringing companionship to lonely seniors. These good works deserve our praise; they deserve our personal support; and when appropriate, they deserve the assistance of the federal government.? [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"The 2003 Bush Budget proposed cutting $88 million out of HHS Community Service programs ? most of which is a $75 million cut (24%) cut to the Community Service Community Services Block Grant Program. Bush is also requesting a $90 million (20%) cut to AmeriCorps, which includes USA Freedom Corps, and an overall $39 million cut to the Corporation for National and Community Service." - House Democrats Web site

Topic: Economy - Deficit
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 2/8/2004


Quote/Claim:
"The budget I just proposed to the Congress cuts the deficit in half in five years." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
White House estimates neglect inevitable costs. The President's proposal to cut the deficit in half deliberately "omits a number of likely costs" such as the continued cost of Iraq and its own defense spending plans. All told, he is proposing roughly $3 trillion in new tax cuts and spending, including $1 trillion to make his tax cuts permanent, $70 billion for the Alternative Minimum Tax, and $50 billion more for war in Iraq. The result is that the deficit is predicted to be "in the range of $500 billion in 2009" ? not even near half of what it currently is. - CBPP, 1/16/04; Washington Times, 1/20/04; Reuters, 2/2/04

Topic: Economy - Jobs
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 3/11/2004


Quote/Claim:
"Over a million jobs were lost because of the [9/11] attack." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"White House officials were unable to point to any specific information that supports a direct link between massive job losses and the attacks." While one White House spokeswoman claimed that the President's statements were "supported by the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)," that agency's associate commissioner "said BLS has not compiled any specific study on jobs which were lost specifically because of the Sept. 11 attacks." - Bureau of National Affairs, 3/22/04

Topic: Economy - Jobs
Speaker: Bush, George - President
Date: 2/23/2004


Quote/Claim:
"At home, obviously, the economy and jobs are on my mind. I know they're on yours, as well. I'm pleased that the economy is growing -- 5.6% unemployment is a good national number." [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"There are the 8.7 million unemployed, defined as those without a job who are actively looking for work. But lurking behind that group are 4.9 million part-time workers who say they would rather be working full time ? the highest number in a decade. There are also the 1.5 million people who want a job but didn't look for one" because the economy had become so bleak. "Add these three groups together and the jobless total for the U.S. hits 9.7%." Even the official unemployment rate is misleading. While "the unemployment rate fell to 5.7 percent from 5.9 percent, that was because more people gave up looking for work." All told, the February 2004 drop "was wholly due to a contraction in the labor force, which declined by 309,000." As the New York Times noted, "compared with previous economic recoveries, job growth remains well below par." - LA Times, 12/29/03; Knight-Ridder, 1/10/04; EPI, 1/9/04; NY Times, 2/22/04

Shall I go on?
Once is a mistake.
Twice is really not paying attention.
Five times is a character flaw.
Ten times... When does one become a "liar"?


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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InvisibleGnuBobo
Frilly Cuffs Extraordinaire
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 43,754
Loc: Charisma
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2922412 - 07/23/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

    Who else around here thinks the uber leftists are as bad (okay, nearly) as the fucking little bitches on the evangelical right?  When you take unreasonable positions, or unsubstantiated positions, you give liberalism or radicalism a bad name.  Seriously.  The fucking problem with Bush is that he thinks he's doing right, in all honesty.  This is far worse than someone out to lie to us. 
      Christ.  My local "liberal activist" group is run by militant lesbians so leftists they exclude people that don't exclude conservatives from any thought whatsoever.  It's pathetic.  What happened to intellectual liberalism and hearing people speak their mind?
      I know Moore is trying to unseat Bush.  I wholeheartedly support him in this effort.  I'm no fucking Democrat or Kerry lover, either.  I just think he went about his "editorial" in a sloppy way.  That's it. 
      All the same, the current administration can rot in hell.  And all the Texas evangelicals.  They suck balls.  My balls.  And I'm greek and hairy. 
      Peace and love.  Take 'er easy everyone! :grin:

GB

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OfflineJPZ
lost in mexico
Registered: 06/28/04
Posts: 193
Loc: Monterrey
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: GnuBobo]
    #2922655 - 07/24/04 12:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Who else around here thinks the uber leftists are as bad (okay, nearly) as the fucking little bitches on the evangelical right? When you take unreasonable positions, or unsubstantiated positions, you give liberalism or radicalism a bad name. Seriously. The fucking problem with Bush is that he thinks he's doing right, in all honesty. This is far worse than someone out to lie to us.
Christ. My local "liberal activist" group is run by militant lesbians so leftists they exclude people that don't exclude conservatives from any thought whatsoever. It's pathetic. What happened to intellectual liberalism and hearing people speak their mind?
I know Moore is trying to unseat Bush. I wholeheartedly support him in this effort. I'm no fucking Democrat or Kerry lover, either. I just think he went about his "editorial" in a sloppy way. That's it.
All the same, the current administration can rot in hell. And all the Texas evangelicals. They suck balls. My balls. And I'm greek and hairy.
Peace and love. Take 'er easy everyone!





:thumbup: :lol:

What I don't get is this.  If Moore lied, so what?  He wears his heart on his sleeve.  We know he wants Bush out.  He's not a politician.  Limbaugh, Hannity et al lie, distort and crap on all the time (often, I might add, in a more violent way).  At least Moore is funny.  Why does everyone get so worker up about him.

The leader of a country, however, should never lie, especially about life or death situations.  As mushmaster said above, I don't think Bush intentionally lied. He really forced himself to believe what his advisors told him.  I can't help thinking of him as a puppet.  I mean, the guy believes in the creation theory, what wouldn't he believe...

His admin. on the other hand....dodgy.


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I do declare, I can float in the air.

"If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2922676 - 07/24/04 01:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:yawn:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2922702 - 07/24/04 01:22 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

whether bush intentionally mislead the nation (about iraq in particular) is something i really can't tell ya.

No surprises there mush. You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it? Or am I way out there?  :smirk:

You don't seriously believe the reason Bush invaded Iraq was to "protect the world from WMD" do you? Do you believe the Bush administration sat there going "Curve Ball tied one on last night but says the WMD are there - my god, we've got to invade to save the world from WMD". You don't think pushing such pathetic intelligence as propaganda was a little dishonest?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2922929 - 07/24/04 04:32 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:rotfl:

I stopped about halfway down your list.

So far all I've seen on it  are things YOU and some others see as lies, but recognize not all see them as such.

I'll comment on two.... muslim men. Having special requirments does not mean they aren't welcome here. Besides ALL should face those requirements. All.... everyone entering this country. It should be very difficult to come here.


Compassion....your quote/claim sounds as if it's referring to private citizens yet your beef is with the budget. HHS is unconstitutional anyway and should be ended.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2922935 - 07/24/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it? Or am I way out there?



It's fairly well known you're way out there.

Moores lies are easy to prove as he commits them to film.
nd a bit of research shows them

Bush's "lies" are claims as yet unproven. Once the proof is in let me know.

Edit: spelling.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/24/04 08:35 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2923169 - 07/24/04 08:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)


No surprises there mush. You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it?


no. it's because one can actually show that moore distorted facts and made false claims, and that he knew it as he was doing so.

You don't seriously believe the reason Bush invaded Iraq was to "protect the world from WMD" do you?

it may have been a reason. do you know that bush knew that no WMD's would be found in iraq after the invasion? how do you know?

You don't think pushing such pathetic intelligence as propaganda was a little dishonest?

only if he himself was unsure about the accuracy of the intelligence, yet pushed it anyway. as none of us have any idea about what he actually believed about the WMD threat posed by iraq, none of us can say that he lied.

Edited by mushmaster (07/24/04 09:01 AM)

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Offlineel_duderino
His Dudeness
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/22/04
Posts: 407
Loc: 'stralia
Last seen: 8 months, 5 days
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: shaman2b]
    #2925118 - 07/25/04 01:27 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hey don't get me wrong I love Michael Moore! He's a funny guy and i agree with his ideas and agendas, but just like any type of editorial spin, he presents a very biased perspective on issues, he has his own agenda and ideas he wants to present along with some truth :smile: He uses good ol' fashioned propaganda techniques of dramatised music, editing, taking things out of context and all that and apparantly even just made shit up. (Re: bowling for Columbine).

But of course its the NRA lobbyist nuts trying to debunk him so It's their word against his... having not really done any sort of 1st had research i can't say who's right. But Michael Moore gets my vote cuz i agree with his ideas!

Just recently i saw Farenheit 9/11 It was a truly fantastic film! At parts a bit shamelessly tear-jerking and emotionally manipulative, but that's exactly what made it so effective! I thought it was a great movie and until another moorelies website re: this movie comes out i'll take his word for it. (besides most if the info i pretty much knew, nothing contradicting with what i thought b4 just a bunch of new info). The cutting and montage of film and music and witty comments are at times truly fantastic and worthy of applause at times i felt dragged along by long emotional scenes of women crying, further strenghtening my (already present) hate towards the Bush Admin.

I suggest everyone watch this movie without any real pre-concieved notions of what it will be and then discuss it with everyone after, this type of controversial film is what's needed to stir the pot, most people seem too content with their beer drinking and tv watching lives to give a shit, maybe this movie might change that.

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Offlineel_duderino
His Dudeness
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/22/04
Posts: 407
Loc: 'stralia
Last seen: 8 months, 5 days
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925144 - 07/25/04 01:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

btw: I don't think bush lies at all, you can tell by looking at his eyes that this dumb muthafuka believes what he's saying.

I'm not sure if u guys are allowed to see this programme in your free-media in the good ol' USA but a really great and shocking programme i just watched here in aus recently is "The world according to Bush".

This programme just like moore's latest movie shows that the bush admin knew exactly what they were doing in Iraq and it had absolutely nothing to do with WMD's. on the day after sept 11th they already had planned to somehow pin this on IRAQ. Any pretext to invade Iraq would be a godsend. There are Some ppl that believe even that if sept 11 wasnt fully orchestrated by the govt. (not really likely) then at least it happened with their full knowledge, it was really a godsend for their piggybanks and what do a few thousand of their own citizens matter anyway? When I say the govt. obviously i'm not reffering to the puppet president.

The World according to Bush is more highly suggested by me because it pretty much just presents the facts and the interviews of experts and govt. officials without any Real spin like the moore movie and it doesn't turn into a tear-jerking session.

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925592 - 07/25/04 09:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

having not really done any sort of 1st had research i can't say who's right. But Michael Moore gets my vote cuz i agree with his ideas!

:oogle:

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925822 - 07/25/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So... facts don't matter?

Good to know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineel_duderino
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2926079 - 07/25/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Haha yeah when you quote it like that it does sound really stupid! You have a good point. The thing is, I was always a big fan of Michael Moore until I heard he is supposedly full of shit and lacks credibility. I was quite the bit disillusioned. My point is that the anti-Moore information could just as likely be just as full of shit. It's pretty much just their word against his. Because who really researches all this stuff 1st hand. What i mean is you might look at a few articles or websites but that's all 3rd party information, you don't really know if they are just bullshitting you cuz who's going to double check everything they claim?

Regardless of whether the info is 100% true or not, i prefer Moore propaganda than NRA-nut propaganda or the free-media we all love in our democratic countries which is equally full of shit. It's still propaganda tho which i don't really agree with no matter from whose side it is...

If the claims about Moore lying ARE true then that just sux! I want the fighters of the good fight to be credible cuz otherwise our side looks bad as a whole. A bunch of lying, socialist, communist, hippies.

It's been a while since i've actually read the moore lies website, i remember that there was some clever editing and taking things out of context as well as intentional misleading. But this is all coming from just this one website, not having seen the original footage myself i can't know who's right. If anyone has the link i'd be very appreciative.

Regardless, Farenheit 9/11 is kickass! I suppose time will tell if any of that is also (supposedly) full of shit.



Also another Bush Lie (well i'm sure he believed it but it still wasn't true). It's a good one!

from http://www.clw.org/16distortions.html
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -Dubya

from website - "This allegation has been repeatedly proven false, and based on forged documents. The fact that this allegation was untrue was well known in the intelligence community before the State of the Union address. CIA Director George Tenet admitted on July 11, 2003: "These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President." However, finger pointing among Administration officials has continued over who is responsible for this portion of the speech."

Of course Dubya is totally clueless and has speech writers that write this stuff for him. I remember on 'the world according to Bush' programme a French intelligence fellow on request of America investigated the claim about Saddam seeking Uranium, he concluded that it is unfounded and most likely totally untrue, haha they went ahead to state it as fact. (can't remember the speech but i think i recall bush using the words "we KNOW that...")

Even if he doesn't lie he is just playing the role. Face it! America has a puppet president. The CIA has been installing puppet governments all over the world why not in their own land of the free?
He is a bumblimg moron and, if he has any real control is dangerously uneducated, stupid and incompetent. He might be a great bloke but no fucking way in hell should he have any control over the worlds biggest super power.

I'll watch the programme again and use proper names and quotes as my memory is hazy and i'm fucking tired!

"go back to sleep America you're government is in control!" - Bill Hicks

g'nite all!

[edit] stupid spelling mistakes etc, goddamn i'm tired!

Edited by el_duderino (07/25/04 03:11 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2928656 - 07/26/04 12:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

no. it's because one can actually show that moore distorted facts and made false claims, and that he knew it as he was doing so.

So do you have examples? And you have absolutely no examples where Bush or his administration distorted facts and made false claims about WMD? You believe no-one in the Bush administration had any doubt whatsoever about what they were saying about WMD?

as none of us have any idea about what he actually believed about the WMD threat posed by iraq, none of us can say that he lied.

And are you this forgiving about Moore? How do you know what Moore "actually believed"? Until you do how can you say he lied?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2931904 - 07/27/04 09:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So do you have examples?

quite a few, but i needn't bother posting them. moore has admitted it himself on different occasions with the excuse that he is an "entertainer", not a journalist.

And you have absolutely no examples where Bush or his administration distorted facts and made false claims about WMD?

we've covered this already. making false claims is not equivalent to lying. one must knowingly make false claims. distorting facts implies that one was willfully deceitful. i can't think of any examples where i know that the administration distorted facts. can you?

You believe no-one in the Bush administration had any doubt whatsoever about what they were saying about WMD?

no one in the administration? there were probably some in the administration who felt that hussein was 100% clean. there may have been others who truly felt he had enormous stockpiles and was an immediate threat. since we are talking about the honesty of statements that bush communicated, what matters is what bush believed.

as i've already said, i believe that bush himself actually believed what he was saying about WMD's (whatever that's worth), but i don't know what he believed, and neither do you.

And are you this forgiving about Moore? How do you know what Moore "actually believed"? Until you do how can you say he lied?

because one can actually find documented examples of moore knowingly manipulating the "facts" which he communicates. his editing techniques on "bowling for columbine" speak for themselves. one cannot splice film or stage reenactments in order to portray non-events as reality without the knowledge that one is potraying falsehoods as facts.

not to mention that moore has admitted it himself.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932056 - 07/27/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

moore has admitted it himself on different occasions with the excuse that he is an "entertainer", not a journalist.

Not sure what he's "admitted" is the same thing you're saying it is. And remember, he is a comedian. I'm a little more relaxed about a comedian making propaganda to make you laugh than someone making propaganda in order to slaughter thousands of innocent people. I hope you are too.

i can't think of any examples where i know that the administration distorted facts. can you?

You mean apart from saying WMD were there when they wern't?

one must knowingly make false claims

Well, we'll have to disagree with how pure of heart the Bush administration are mush. You think the WMD propaganda was in good faith, I don't.

because one can actually find documented examples of moore knowingly manipulating the "facts" which he communicates

And you don't think Bush knowingly manipulated the "facts" about WMD? You seriously believe he sat there, someone told him about WMD one day and he suddenly said "My god, lets invade"? You don't believe there was any other thought in his mind but to save the world from WMD?

not to mention that moore has admitted it himself.

Like I say, I'm not sure he's admitted what you think he's admitted.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2932148 - 07/27/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You mean apart from saying WMD were there when they wern't?

that isn't "distorting facts" unless they knew what they were saying was untrue. it wasn't a lie unless they knew the statements to be untrue. like i said, aristotle was not "distorting facts", nor was he lying, when he said that the earth was the center of the universe, even though it wasn't.

Well, we'll have to disagree with how pure of heart the Bush administration are mush. You think the WMD propaganda was in good faith, I don't.

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

Edited by mushmaster (07/27/04 11:07 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932570 - 07/27/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

that isn't "distorting facts" unless they knew what they were saying was untrue

Well, it sure sounds like Colin knew.

Colin Powell 2001: "He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction".

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

Because I don't believe for a second Bush decided to invade Iraq to save the world from WMD. Because after no WMD were found his reaction was to crack jokes and laugh about it. Does that strike you as the behaviour of a man who genuinely believed in WMD?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932961 - 07/27/04 02:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

when stephen hawking claimed that information about the matter in a black hole never leaves it, a claim contested by other physicists and which he recently retracted, he was not lying.

Ok, excellent point. So Bush didn't "lie" about Iraq...

The difference is that when Hawking makes a "mistake", 900 US soldiers and over 10,000 Iraqi's don't die because of it :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2932962 - 07/27/04 02:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

When you take into account what Powell and Rice said added to the claims by some weapons inspectors that Iraq had complied with 95% of the requests made of them during the 90's and then remember that the testimony of some Iraqi exiles, which also claimed Iraq had destroyed all WMDs, was supressed, You surely start to think 'was this really intelligence failure or just a big pack of lies?'


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2933144 - 07/27/04 03:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well, it sure sounds like Colin knew.

1. we are not talking about what colin powell knew, but what bush knew.
2. even if that statement was made by gdub, it still wouldn't prove he lied. people reexamine new evidence and arrive at different conclusions all the time.

Because I don't believe for a second Bush decided to invade Iraq to save the world from WMD.

how do you know that it wasn't a reason? i ask you again:

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

i don't know what bush believed. i have to say that it wouldn't surprise me if he believed what he was saying to be the truth. however, i don't know, and neither do you, and what's more, at this time, we have no way of knowing.

the point i sought to make when i posted in this thread is that in order to lie, one must be willfully dishonest. i'm not going to debate you on which one of our conjectures is the most probable. it's fruitless. if you have proof that bush actually lied about WMD's, i would be very interested to see it. short of that, this thread is a waste of my time.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2933166 - 07/27/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

tsk tsk. Still hoping facts make a difference?

:rolleyes:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933173 - 07/27/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)


tsk tsk. Still hoping facts make a difference?


i've been around here long enough to know that even provable facts don't matter, so i'm sure as hell not going to waste my time debating who's got the better guess.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2933883 - 07/27/04 06:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

This should be cast in stone or at least flashed in big neon letters at the top of this forum --

"I've been around here long enough to know that even provable facts don't matter, so I'm sure as hell not going to waste my time debating who's got the better guess."

An instant classic. I bow down in humbleness.

pinky


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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2934363 - 07/27/04 09:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"Argueing over the internet is like running in the special olymics.........even if you win...you're still a retard"

Lets face it......anyone that thinks that monkey look alike (more than most), should remain in that nice house, in middle of the D.C. ghetto is a fool.

We all know he's not making the decisions, so why not at least get a guy in there that can put together 8 words and make a sentence?

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InvisiblePsyllyMe
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Phred]
    #2934581 - 07/27/04 10:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hope that wasnt "flaming"

geez when i was young,"flaming" was a word to describe men that liked to do......well lets just say, some things other men didnt

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2935926 - 07/28/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?


Where are you going with this mush? What "proof" are you looking for exactly? Bush saying "I am lying but WMD are a threat"? He isn't going to do that. As far as I'm aware Moore hasn't said "I am lying right now.." either. So why do you believe Moore lied?

I guess this means you think Hitler didn't know about the holocaust because he didn't sign a peice of paper saying "Dear Heinrich, Please kill all the jews, Yours truly, Adolf"?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2936601 - 07/28/04 02:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

however, i don't know, and neither do you, and what's more, at this time, we have no way of knowing

Let me get this theory of yours straight mush...You're saying that the only time we can say whether or not George Bush is lying is when he TELLS US HE IS?

That's your theory?  :eek:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #2937632 - 07/28/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm smarter than you when I'm falling down drunk and I would much rather have GW than JFK (either one) in the White House


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: PsyllyMe]
    #2937637 - 07/28/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hope that wasn't flaming.


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