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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2922702 - 07/24/04 01:22 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

whether bush intentionally mislead the nation (about iraq in particular) is something i really can't tell ya.

No surprises there mush. You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it? Or am I way out there?  :smirk:

You don't seriously believe the reason Bush invaded Iraq was to "protect the world from WMD" do you? Do you believe the Bush administration sat there going "Curve Ball tied one on last night but says the WMD are there - my god, we've got to invade to save the world from WMD". You don't think pushing such pathetic intelligence as propaganda was a little dishonest?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2922929 - 07/24/04 04:32 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:rotfl:

I stopped about halfway down your list.

So far all I've seen on it  are things YOU and some others see as lies, but recognize not all see them as such.

I'll comment on two.... muslim men. Having special requirments does not mean they aren't welcome here. Besides ALL should face those requirements. All.... everyone entering this country. It should be very difficult to come here.


Compassion....your quote/claim sounds as if it's referring to private citizens yet your beef is with the budget. HHS is unconstitutional anyway and should be ended.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2922935 - 07/24/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it? Or am I way out there?



It's fairly well known you're way out there.

Moores lies are easy to prove as he commits them to film.
nd a bit of research shows them

Bush's "lies" are claims as yet unproven. Once the proof is in let me know.

Edit: spelling.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/24/04 08:35 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2923169 - 07/24/04 08:23 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)


No surprises there mush. You're confident Micheal Moore lied but not Bush. That wouldn't be because you don't like Moores politics would it?


no. it's because one can actually show that moore distorted facts and made false claims, and that he knew it as he was doing so.

You don't seriously believe the reason Bush invaded Iraq was to "protect the world from WMD" do you?

it may have been a reason. do you know that bush knew that no WMD's would be found in iraq after the invasion? how do you know?

You don't think pushing such pathetic intelligence as propaganda was a little dishonest?

only if he himself was unsure about the accuracy of the intelligence, yet pushed it anyway. as none of us have any idea about what he actually believed about the WMD threat posed by iraq, none of us can say that he lied.

Edited by mushmaster (07/24/04 09:01 AM)

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Offlineel_duderino
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: shaman2b]
    #2925118 - 07/25/04 01:27 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Hey don't get me wrong I love Michael Moore! He's a funny guy and i agree with his ideas and agendas, but just like any type of editorial spin, he presents a very biased perspective on issues, he has his own agenda and ideas he wants to present along with some truth :smile: He uses good ol' fashioned propaganda techniques of dramatised music, editing, taking things out of context and all that and apparantly even just made shit up. (Re: bowling for Columbine).

But of course its the NRA lobbyist nuts trying to debunk him so It's their word against his... having not really done any sort of 1st had research i can't say who's right. But Michael Moore gets my vote cuz i agree with his ideas!

Just recently i saw Farenheit 9/11 It was a truly fantastic film! At parts a bit shamelessly tear-jerking and emotionally manipulative, but that's exactly what made it so effective! I thought it was a great movie and until another moorelies website re: this movie comes out i'll take his word for it. (besides most if the info i pretty much knew, nothing contradicting with what i thought b4 just a bunch of new info). The cutting and montage of film and music and witty comments are at times truly fantastic and worthy of applause at times i felt dragged along by long emotional scenes of women crying, further strenghtening my (already present) hate towards the Bush Admin.

I suggest everyone watch this movie without any real pre-concieved notions of what it will be and then discuss it with everyone after, this type of controversial film is what's needed to stir the pot, most people seem too content with their beer drinking and tv watching lives to give a shit, maybe this movie might change that.

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Offlineel_duderino
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Registered: 04/22/04
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925144 - 07/25/04 01:40 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

btw: I don't think bush lies at all, you can tell by looking at his eyes that this dumb muthafuka believes what he's saying.

I'm not sure if u guys are allowed to see this programme in your free-media in the good ol' USA but a really great and shocking programme i just watched here in aus recently is "The world according to Bush".

This programme just like moore's latest movie shows that the bush admin knew exactly what they were doing in Iraq and it had absolutely nothing to do with WMD's. on the day after sept 11th they already had planned to somehow pin this on IRAQ. Any pretext to invade Iraq would be a godsend. There are Some ppl that believe even that if sept 11 wasnt fully orchestrated by the govt. (not really likely) then at least it happened with their full knowledge, it was really a godsend for their piggybanks and what do a few thousand of their own citizens matter anyway? When I say the govt. obviously i'm not reffering to the puppet president.

The World according to Bush is more highly suggested by me because it pretty much just presents the facts and the interviews of experts and govt. officials without any Real spin like the moore movie and it doesn't turn into a tear-jerking session.

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925592 - 07/25/04 09:33 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

having not really done any sort of 1st had research i can't say who's right. But Michael Moore gets my vote cuz i agree with his ideas!

:oogle:

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: el_duderino]
    #2925822 - 07/25/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

So... facts don't matter?

Good to know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineel_duderino
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Registered: 04/22/04
Posts: 407
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2926079 - 07/25/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Haha yeah when you quote it like that it does sound really stupid! You have a good point. The thing is, I was always a big fan of Michael Moore until I heard he is supposedly full of shit and lacks credibility. I was quite the bit disillusioned. My point is that the anti-Moore information could just as likely be just as full of shit. It's pretty much just their word against his. Because who really researches all this stuff 1st hand. What i mean is you might look at a few articles or websites but that's all 3rd party information, you don't really know if they are just bullshitting you cuz who's going to double check everything they claim?

Regardless of whether the info is 100% true or not, i prefer Moore propaganda than NRA-nut propaganda or the free-media we all love in our democratic countries which is equally full of shit. It's still propaganda tho which i don't really agree with no matter from whose side it is...

If the claims about Moore lying ARE true then that just sux! I want the fighters of the good fight to be credible cuz otherwise our side looks bad as a whole. A bunch of lying, socialist, communist, hippies.

It's been a while since i've actually read the moore lies website, i remember that there was some clever editing and taking things out of context as well as intentional misleading. But this is all coming from just this one website, not having seen the original footage myself i can't know who's right. If anyone has the link i'd be very appreciative.

Regardless, Farenheit 9/11 is kickass! I suppose time will tell if any of that is also (supposedly) full of shit.



Also another Bush Lie (well i'm sure he believed it but it still wasn't true). It's a good one!

from http://www.clw.org/16distortions.html
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -Dubya

from website - "This allegation has been repeatedly proven false, and based on forged documents. The fact that this allegation was untrue was well known in the intelligence community before the State of the Union address. CIA Director George Tenet admitted on July 11, 2003: "These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President." However, finger pointing among Administration officials has continued over who is responsible for this portion of the speech."

Of course Dubya is totally clueless and has speech writers that write this stuff for him. I remember on 'the world according to Bush' programme a French intelligence fellow on request of America investigated the claim about Saddam seeking Uranium, he concluded that it is unfounded and most likely totally untrue, haha they went ahead to state it as fact. (can't remember the speech but i think i recall bush using the words "we KNOW that...")

Even if he doesn't lie he is just playing the role. Face it! America has a puppet president. The CIA has been installing puppet governments all over the world why not in their own land of the free?
He is a bumblimg moron and, if he has any real control is dangerously uneducated, stupid and incompetent. He might be a great bloke but no fucking way in hell should he have any control over the worlds biggest super power.

I'll watch the programme again and use proper names and quotes as my memory is hazy and i'm fucking tired!

"go back to sleep America you're government is in control!" - Bill Hicks

g'nite all!

[edit] stupid spelling mistakes etc, goddamn i'm tired!

Edited by el_duderino (07/25/04 03:11 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2928656 - 07/26/04 12:56 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

no. it's because one can actually show that moore distorted facts and made false claims, and that he knew it as he was doing so.

So do you have examples? And you have absolutely no examples where Bush or his administration distorted facts and made false claims about WMD? You believe no-one in the Bush administration had any doubt whatsoever about what they were saying about WMD?

as none of us have any idea about what he actually believed about the WMD threat posed by iraq, none of us can say that he lied.

And are you this forgiving about Moore? How do you know what Moore "actually believed"? Until you do how can you say he lied?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2931904 - 07/27/04 09:31 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

So do you have examples?

quite a few, but i needn't bother posting them. moore has admitted it himself on different occasions with the excuse that he is an "entertainer", not a journalist.

And you have absolutely no examples where Bush or his administration distorted facts and made false claims about WMD?

we've covered this already. making false claims is not equivalent to lying. one must knowingly make false claims. distorting facts implies that one was willfully deceitful. i can't think of any examples where i know that the administration distorted facts. can you?

You believe no-one in the Bush administration had any doubt whatsoever about what they were saying about WMD?

no one in the administration? there were probably some in the administration who felt that hussein was 100% clean. there may have been others who truly felt he had enormous stockpiles and was an immediate threat. since we are talking about the honesty of statements that bush communicated, what matters is what bush believed.

as i've already said, i believe that bush himself actually believed what he was saying about WMD's (whatever that's worth), but i don't know what he believed, and neither do you.

And are you this forgiving about Moore? How do you know what Moore "actually believed"? Until you do how can you say he lied?

because one can actually find documented examples of moore knowingly manipulating the "facts" which he communicates. his editing techniques on "bowling for columbine" speak for themselves. one cannot splice film or stage reenactments in order to portray non-events as reality without the knowledge that one is potraying falsehoods as facts.

not to mention that moore has admitted it himself.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932056 - 07/27/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

moore has admitted it himself on different occasions with the excuse that he is an "entertainer", not a journalist.

Not sure what he's "admitted" is the same thing you're saying it is. And remember, he is a comedian. I'm a little more relaxed about a comedian making propaganda to make you laugh than someone making propaganda in order to slaughter thousands of innocent people. I hope you are too.

i can't think of any examples where i know that the administration distorted facts. can you?

You mean apart from saying WMD were there when they wern't?

one must knowingly make false claims

Well, we'll have to disagree with how pure of heart the Bush administration are mush. You think the WMD propaganda was in good faith, I don't.

because one can actually find documented examples of moore knowingly manipulating the "facts" which he communicates

And you don't think Bush knowingly manipulated the "facts" about WMD? You seriously believe he sat there, someone told him about WMD one day and he suddenly said "My god, lets invade"? You don't believe there was any other thought in his mind but to save the world from WMD?

not to mention that moore has admitted it himself.

Like I say, I'm not sure he's admitted what you think he's admitted.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2932148 - 07/27/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You mean apart from saying WMD were there when they wern't?

that isn't "distorting facts" unless they knew what they were saying was untrue. it wasn't a lie unless they knew the statements to be untrue. like i said, aristotle was not "distorting facts", nor was he lying, when he said that the earth was the center of the universe, even though it wasn't.

Well, we'll have to disagree with how pure of heart the Bush administration are mush. You think the WMD propaganda was in good faith, I don't.

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

Edited by mushmaster (07/27/04 11:07 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932570 - 07/27/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

that isn't "distorting facts" unless they knew what they were saying was untrue

Well, it sure sounds like Colin knew.

Colin Powell 2001: "He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction".

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

Because I don't believe for a second Bush decided to invade Iraq to save the world from WMD. Because after no WMD were found his reaction was to crack jokes and laugh about it. Does that strike you as the behaviour of a man who genuinely believed in WMD?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2932961 - 07/27/04 02:34 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

when stephen hawking claimed that information about the matter in a black hole never leaves it, a claim contested by other physicists and which he recently retracted, he was not lying.

Ok, excellent point. So Bush didn't "lie" about Iraq...

The difference is that when Hawking makes a "mistake", 900 US soldiers and over 10,000 Iraqi's don't die because of it :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2932962 - 07/27/04 02:35 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

When you take into account what Powell and Rice said added to the claims by some weapons inspectors that Iraq had complied with 95% of the requests made of them during the 90's and then remember that the testimony of some Iraqi exiles, which also claimed Iraq had destroyed all WMDs, was supressed, You surely start to think 'was this really intelligence failure or just a big pack of lies?'


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: Xlea321]
    #2933144 - 07/27/04 03:06 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Well, it sure sounds like Colin knew.

1. we are not talking about what colin powell knew, but what bush knew.
2. even if that statement was made by gdub, it still wouldn't prove he lied. people reexamine new evidence and arrive at different conclusions all the time.

Because I don't believe for a second Bush decided to invade Iraq to save the world from WMD.

how do you know that it wasn't a reason? i ask you again:

what makes you think bush knew that what he was saying was false as he said it?

i don't know what bush believed. i have to say that it wouldn't surprise me if he believed what he was saying to be the truth. however, i don't know, and neither do you, and what's more, at this time, we have no way of knowing.

the point i sought to make when i posted in this thread is that in order to lie, one must be willfully dishonest. i'm not going to debate you on which one of our conjectures is the most probable. it's fruitless. if you have proof that bush actually lied about WMD's, i would be very interested to see it. short of that, this thread is a waste of my time.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2933166 - 07/27/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

tsk tsk. Still hoping facts make a difference?

:rolleyes:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933173 - 07/27/04 03:12 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)


tsk tsk. Still hoping facts make a difference?


i've been around here long enough to know that even provable facts don't matter, so i'm sure as hell not going to waste my time debating who's got the better guess.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Moore lied! (again) [Re: ]
    #2933883 - 07/27/04 06:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This should be cast in stone or at least flashed in big neon letters at the top of this forum --

"I've been around here long enough to know that even provable facts don't matter, so I'm sure as hell not going to waste my time debating who's got the better guess."

An instant classic. I bow down in humbleness.

pinky


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