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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Shay's Rebellion
    #2876865 - 07/11/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think I'm going to start bringing up history every so often.

Since the topic of our founding fathers has been brought up recently, I thought I'd bring up Shay's Rebellion.
links:
(1)
(2)
(3) <- letter by Thomas Jefferson


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2878929 - 07/11/04 07:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Everyone in here has an opinion... but it's only about the stuff that's currently in the media.

Didn't there used to be a phrase about history... doomed... and repeating and stuff? Oh well, that's just some old hoohah from too long ago...


Back to Shay's Rebellion...

The founding fathers never defined "liberty." This means that they didn't have to address slavery, indentured servants, and the like. Also, few history books mention exactly why the Second Continental Congress boarded up all the windows and locked the doors on that sweltering July day. Maybe it's because much of the discussion that day was technically illegal (based on the first Constitution which they had drafted earlier). It seems that money was a big issue for these men... more specifically BONDS. The new constitution created a government which would be able to honor those bonds - can you say taxes?

The bottom line has always been stability... for the men with the most money.

So, now go and click those links and read up on Shay's Rebellion... keeping in mind the people who controlled this new republic.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2884618 - 07/13/04 02:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Why am I not surprised at the lack of replies?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2884758 - 07/13/04 03:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Because you have a low astonishment gene?

Because you expect little intelligent response except ad-hominem and other puerile attacks from most members?

*takes a toke* I gotta get back to watching Jerry Springer now...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Swami]
    #2884921 - 07/13/04 05:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Of course in your attempt to be condescending you fail to note that no-one from any "side" responded.

It seems the topic wasn't of sufficient interest.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Swami]
    #2885517 - 07/13/04 12:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Swami: Because you expect little intelligent response except ad-hominem and other puerile attacks from most members?
You know, I really don't want such low expectations.

lds: It seems the topic wasn't of sufficient interest.
No seeming about it, it's obvious that those of the psittacidae family aren't able to grasp certain subjects.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2886361 - 07/13/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:rotfl:

So because people don't share your interest in this subject they're parrots?

Right.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2886410 - 07/13/04 04:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i'm familiar with Shays rebellion, what do you want to discuss?

usually when you start a thread you're supposed to start the dialogue.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2886478 - 07/13/04 04:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with Jefferson's sentiments.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinefalcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 6,927
Last seen: 21 hours, 1 minute
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2886514 - 07/13/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whiskey rebellion
Rebellion number two


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2887093 - 07/13/04 07:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I would argue that the people of Shays rebellion wanted more government. It is amazing that we set up a country without a means of official exchange. The Government wasn't printing money, and these guys wanted a standard currency. It was a great idea. It seems obvious now, but most great ideas are usually marked by their simplicity. The federal government didn't start printing legal tender notes until 1862. That was about 76 years after Shays rebellion.

Early attempts at money by the Continental Congress proved worthless when they printed so much money that they made it worthless due to inflation.

Oddly enough, at the time the best money you could have was a bale of tobacco. The second best type of money you could have was promissory note backed by tobacco. They had these huge warehouses full of tobacco where you could go and either redeem your note for a bale or give them your bale for a note. Before the gold standard, the entire economy was based on tobacco. Isn't that just nuts?

Most of the early money was basically promissory notes issued by banks. In the years between Shays rebellion and the official release of legal tender notes, we had the era of wildcat banking where anybody and their mother could open up a bank and print money.

I think that is interesting and related to the anarchist capitalist thread. Anyone that thinks that capitalism is feasible without government has to come to terms with the fact that you switch the role of printing money from a central power to the vagaries of the market. Anyone could print money back then, and you had to be savvy about whose money you would accept to satisfy a debt. If the bank went out of business, your money was worthless. The phrase "throwing good money after bad" came from this era. You spent your "bad money" first. Whatever notes you had were the most questionable, they were first out the door. You held your stongest money closest to your heart.

Another part of Shays Rebellion was to seek another option apart from debtors prisons. Think about how horrible the available options were in a depression. People didn't have money, and the money they had was suspect and losing value. Because of poor market conditions and the declining value of the money they did have, they couldn't satisfy their own debts. When this happened on a widespread scale, the government comes in and starts throwing people in jail. The whole history of money is just crazy. Today we have the bankruptcy process. It is probably too lax and people abuse it, but it is a satisfactory way for the market to dispose of debts compared to the alternative back in the day.

The history of money truly is whacked. Confederate currency actually came out before the US Government started issuing legal tender notes. Then people with printing presses in the north started to counterfeit the Confederate notes to flood the market and make them worthless. Brilliant. Our first US Legal Tender note was actually a reaction of the Civil War. The government had to raise money to fight it, so they created a currency and made it legal tender for all debts, public and private. If you didn't accept it you were in big trouble, or at least they told you.

Funny thing is, they should have listened more to the idea of Shays rebellion and created a stable national currency. The whole economy would have been much farther ahead if people had used a common currency between the 76 years it took from Shays to the 1862 issue. We may have even been able to avoid the civil war. If the well off in the south who made the decisions had their wealth in US Dollars, they would have been reticent to walk away from that wealth and start the Confederacy. They would have too much to lose.

To be sure though, I really don't know what the hell I am talking about.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Sclorch]
    #2887242 - 07/13/04 08:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So what do you want people to do? Besides Think? To act... act on what? What do we have to act on... where can we draw from a historical perspective a much more updated and modern one?


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What?


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2887869 - 07/14/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I have no idea what he was getting at, I just went off on my own tanget. His post was both curious and furious. He was furious that we haven't learned from the Shay Rebellion, but he curiously ommitted what specific lesson that we should have learned.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2889239 - 07/14/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're right... there was an omission.
There has never been a golden age in this country, as far as people's rights are concerned. There has always been a powerful elite. It has always been about the bottom line. Those with the most money have the most rights... and eventually (or merely sometimes) some of those rights trickle down to the rest of us.

To obtain yet another perspective on the founding fathers, check out An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution. keyword: bonds


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Shay's Rebellion [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2889246 - 07/14/04 01:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
:rotfl:
So because people don't share your interest in this subject they're parrots?
Right.



Marketing.
I got 7 more replies with that one.


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