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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The CBC [Re: Kasumeat]
    #2886498 - 07/13/04 02:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kasumeat said:
Stolen money? I have a deal for you. My government will stop 'stealing' your money, and you can stop stealing my land, my health care system, my protection, and my security (financial and physical), to name a few.  :rolleyes:



Who is stealing your land, your health care system, your protection and your security?  Are you saying that if the government would stop extorting money from other people to give you freebies that this is the same as stealing these freebies from you?  If your best friend is a thief, and 'generously' gives you a small portion of his stolen goods every time he takes them from one of his victims and then one day he is stopped from stealing that somehow the goods that he once gave you are now stolen from you?  Is that your line of 'reasoning?'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: The CBC *DELETED* [Re: Positronius]
    #2887130 - 07/13/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2887410 - 07/13/04 07:52 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Because of a smaller population? Are their NO SHOWS that exist without public funding...I'd be willing to call bullshit if you say yes, not that you've made such a claim to this point. As such it is clear that these 'rare exceptions' are shows that a large enough portion of the Canadian audience deem enjoyable. Clearly if shows are found enjoyable, even in a sparsely populated country like Canada, they can stay afloat without stolen money.

do your homework before you run your mouth. Look at Korean cinema for example, see how it is a massive success, why? because of government support. American media has had massive government backing in the form of forcing into into foreign markets with economic threats.

DONT AGREE????? do your homework and get back to me.

All of Canada's entertainment successes have come from government support, and they have come to reap more and more profits over the last decade.

just, please, move to the states allready. You are trying to inflict American values on to Canadians, and that is just silly, we have very divergent cultures and opinions, and measuring Canadian politics on American terms is idiotic.

free market? low taxes? like I said, that isnt Canada, nor will it be, get your head out of the sand and go get a green card application, you will be much happier. Because as of now, your views do not have a chance of ever being accepted by the Canadian public, or the government.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2887411 - 07/13/04 07:53 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

st0nedphucker said:
Thats 'cos Canada iz borings'....

You aint go no's decentz newz




says the guy from Wales.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: pB0t]
    #2887422 - 07/13/04 07:59 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

pbot:

Yet the Conservatives have 5 times the seats of the NDP. Do you honestly think the NDP is more powerful than the Conservatives?

seats are irrelevant in this matter. Think it through, The liberals are left-leaning, the bloc is left-leaning, and the NDP is left.

how does a right-wing party fit into this equation?

If the liberals propose something that both the Bloc and the Cons oppose, its up to the NDP. If Cons propose anything, it will automatically be voted down by the libs/ndp/bloc.

who has more power in this situation? the cons only have a chance if the libs swing right....which doesnt seem very likely.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Positronius]
    #2887831 - 07/13/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

do your homework before you run your mouth. Look at Korean cinema for example, see how it is a massive success, why? because of government support. American media has had massive government backing in the form of forcing into into foreign markets with economic threats.



We are arguing on different grounds. You are arguing that for a legitimate number of shows to succeed in Canada, government has to support some stations. I am arguing that for government to do this is IMMORAL. It is curious indeed that you did not respond to my ice sculpture museum analogy...

Quote:

All of Canada's entertainment successes have come from government support, and they have come to reap more and more profits over the last decade.



You said before that there were at least 12 self-sustaining entertainment shows. I cannot say if this number is lower of higher not living in Canada but your statement contradicts the above regardless.

If they're reaping profits, meaning people are watching them and they are generating advertising revenue, perhaps it is time government stops funding them?

Quote:

just, please, move to the states allready. You are trying to inflict American values on to Canadians, and that is just silly, we have very divergent cultures and opinions, and measuring Canadian politics on American terms is idiotic.




I live in the United States my friend.

Quote:

free market? low taxes? like I said, that isnt Canada, nor will it be, get your head out of the sand and go get a green card application, you will be much happier. Because as of now, your views do not have a chance of ever being accepted by the Canadian public



Have you had an articulate defender of laissez-faire present his/her argument to each and ever canadian of voting age, and followed it up with a survey as to whether they'd prefer to keep their kleptocracy? If not, maybe you should stop with the false generalizations.

Listen, I understand where you're coming from and I am also aware of the infinite amount of knowledge you have of Canada and Canadians relative to me. I must tell you though that I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THAT. Call me narrow-minded, perhaps I am, but with every passing day it becomes harder and harder for me to see good in any system that denies liberty. Socialism is theft and to permit theft is to have a total disregard of property rights. The TRUE(see: not fucking healthcare) rights of humans are derived from property and thus the socialist system really works against life itself.*

*-Minor thieving of Pinky's sig quote.

edit:
Quote:

or the government.



Shucks, why'd you wait till the end to throw that zinger in. Could have saved me a lot of typing! If the current Canadian government disapproves of liberty clearly I'm off-base in my thoughts and downright stupid in my desires. Thank you for showing me the light O Government of Canada!


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Edited by Ancalagon (07/13/04 11:21 PM)

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2888050 - 07/13/04 11:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I live in the United States my friend.

wow, then why are you so concerned about Canadian governmental policy which has absolutely nothing to do with you and which the vast majority of Canadians support?

I am arguing that for government to do this is IMMORAL.

well, the vast majority of Canadians do not, so I guess that means morals are relative.

You said before that there were at least 12 self-sustaining entertainment shows.

I did.....?


If they're reaping profits, meaning people are watching them and they are generating advertising revenue, perhaps it is time government stops funding them?


The government doesnt fund projects that reap profit.

kleptocracy?

wow, thats intelligent. Yes, you dont agree with Canadian values, thats been established, but for you to label us a "kleptocracy" is just hopelessly ignorant. when 70% of Canadians vote for parties that will maintain our current tax level, or raise tax rates, it indicates that Canadians agree with the system, and thus it is not theft.

it must be fun for you to throw around words like kleptocracy is such a shallow manner though, Azerbaijan, that is a kleptocracy, go do some research to further your understanding of the word's actual meaning.

I must tell you though that I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THAT

so you dont give a damn about what Canadians actually want, and you think they should be subjected to your American ideals....

and then you talk about liberty. Interesting.

You are an ideologue with no respect for democracy, an ideologue who thinks that YOUR ideals should be what...forced? upon people who dont want them....

thats not liberty McGenius, thats totalitarianism.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Positronius]
    #2888934 - 07/14/04 09:10 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wow, then why are you so concerned about Canadian governmental policy which has absolutely nothing to do with you and which the vast majority of Canadians support?



The lack of liberty anywhere is a concern of mine.

Quote:

well, the vast majority of Canadians do not, so I guess that means morals are relative.



I don't care much for a code of morals that condones and encourages blatant theft.

Quote:


I did.....?



Sorry about that, didn't realize I had first argued with Kasumeat and then with you. The redness of your avatars threw me off. One of you does happen to be wrong though.

Quote:

The government doesnt fund projects that reap profit.




This is WHAT YOU JUST SAID:
Quote:

All of Canada's entertainment successes have come from government support, and they have come to reap more and more profits over the last decade.




So does your government stop funding those shows once they are self-sustaining? Did I misinterpret what you said? A little help please.

Quote:

wow, thats intelligent.



Thank You!

Quote:

Yes, you dont agree with Canadian values, thats been established



I don't agree with your current system of government just as I don't agree with the current system of government within the United States.

Quote:

but for you to label us a "kleptocracy" is just hopelessly ignorant.



Kleptocracy, being a government run by thieves, I believe VERY accurately describes any 'socialist democracy'. Do you deny that Socialism is theft?

Quote:

when 70% of Canadians vote for parties that will maintain our current tax level, or raise tax rates, it indicates that Canadians agree with the system, and thus it is not theft.



2+2=5. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Etc. Because a majority of people believe something, that something is true? What about the other 30%? If they don't particularly care for socialized medicine are you not stealing from them and violating their rights?

Quote:

it must be fun for you to throw around words like kleptocracy is such a shallow manner though, Azerbaijan, that is a kleptocracy, go do some research to further your understanding of the word's actual meaning.




It's very fun, and sometimes I even hit the target in my throwing of such a word. This is one such case.

Quote:


so you dont give a damn about what Canadians actually want, and you think they should be subjected to your American ideals....




What the hell? I'm debating with you buddy, not outlining my plans for a Coup that will overthrow your government and set up what I feel is a better one. I am of the opinion that socialism is a horrible and immoral system that consists of total theft and denial of property rights and thus human rights.

Quote:

and then you talk about liberty. Interesting.




Wise up. I have yet to, and never will seek to FORCE my will upon anyone, I am merely trying to persuade you to look at socialism as I do. Please show me how and where any force is involved. Please.

Quote:

You are an ideologue with no respect for democracy



More than that I absolutely DESPISE democracy. You have at the very least nailed that point.

Quote:

an ideologue who thinks that YOUR ideals should be what...forced? upon people who dont want them....




You what...would like to see everyone with down syndrome shot in the face? No? Are you going to continue putting words in my mouth and making up shit?

Quote:

thats not liberty McGenius, thats totalitarianism.



You must have been very satisfied by the end of that post. You went from attempting to counter my points at the beginning to discovering my inherent totalitarianism at the end. A job well done detective! Now if you could just deal with what I write as opposed to what you would have liked me to have written for your argument's benefit, this discussion can be a lot more productive.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineKasumeat
Truism

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2890440 - 07/14/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:2+2=5. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Etc. Because a majority of people believe something, that something is true? What about the other 30%? If they don't particularly care for socialized medicine are you not stealing from them and violating their rights?




Wow, I can't believe an American is accusing Canada of being an Owellian society.

Absolutely not, that is not stealing in any way. They are not being forced to live in Canada. Taxes are 100% voluntary. If you don't want to pay them, you have every right not to get a job, and then leave Canada.

If you're propsing that a tax-free government is the way to go, all I can say is, 'no thanks'.


--------------------
A utopian government is the best type.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The CBC [Re: Kasumeat]
    #2890543 - 07/14/04 04:05 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kasumeat said:
They are not being forced to live in Canada. Taxes are 100% voluntary. If you don't want to pay them, you have every right not to get a job, and then leave Canada.



Sounds quite similar to the way the mob operates a protection racket. "Hey, it's a free country. You don't like it, stop doin' business in our territory and leave before we come lookin' for ya'..."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Kasumeat]
    #2890935 - 07/14/04 06:01 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Wow, I can't believe an American is accusing Canada of being an Owellian society.




What the fuck is with you people? Can you PLEASE just read what I say and not assume anything. He said that because 70% of Canadians voted for theft, it wasn't theft. The 1984 reference dealt with a complete fallacy being expoused [as truth] because the majority believed(voted) it. I in no way called Canada an Orwellian society.

Quote:


Absolutely not, that is not stealing in any way. They are not being forced to live in Canada. Taxes are 100% voluntary. If you don't want to pay them, you have every right not to get a job, and then leave Canada.




Bullshit. You would tell a Jew in 1938 Germany that them being rapidly stripped of civil liberties and potentially dissapearing is completely voluntary in the sense that they can leave whenever they want(disregard instances of them being prevented from leaving, that is not the issue at hand)? A person should give up their livelihood, their friends, and their family because the majority of people in your country support theft and thieves? I don't see how you can say socialism is not theft...Your property is being seized from you BY FORCE in order to serve some greater good. That is theft buddy, motive does not matter.

Quote:

If you're propsing that a tax-free government is the way to go, all I can say is, 'no thanks'.



Feel free to tax people for the legitimate functions of government, DON'T tax them for each and every petty little project a politician feels would benefit society.

[x]=edit.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

Edited by Ancalagon (07/14/04 07:12 PM)

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: The CBC *DELETED* [Re: Evolving]
    #2890959 - 07/14/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by pB0t (07/14/04 10:10 PM)

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: The CBC [Re: pB0t]
    #2891290 - 07/14/04 08:16 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed. As one who lived through the Trudeaupian years (and yes, I remember when martial law was declared in Canada -- by Trudeau) I can honestly say that Trudeau was very probably the worst thing that ever happened to that poor sad sack of a country.

That reminds me -- to all you Canadians (and remember, I was born and raised in Canada -- spent the first three and a half decades of my life in Canada) who think the US is a police state, could one of you please tell me the last time martial law was declared in the US?

Thanks in advance.

pinky


--------------------

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OfflineKasumeat
Truism

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 86
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2891876 - 07/14/04 11:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:What the fuck is with you people? Can you PLEASE just read what I say and not assume anything. He said that because 70% of Canadians voted for theft, it wasn't theft. The 1984 reference dealt with a complete fallacy being expoused [as truth] because the majority believed(voted) it. I in no way called Canada an Orwellian society.




In retrospect, you didn't really do either. You were being vague, and I misinterpereted you. Sorry.

Quote:

[Holocaust=taxes]




That's the most disgusting thing I think I've ever heard come up in a serious political debate. You quite literally equated socialism with surpression of humans rights, which resulted in the killing of millions.

You're not worth any more of my time.


--------------------
A utopian government is the best type.

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: pB0t]
    #2892114 - 07/15/04 01:23 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
I'm reading a lot of things here about "Canadian values". Not everyone in Canada, especially WEST of Ontario, shares these values. Indeed these "Canadian values" were mostly the values of politicians like Pierre Trudeau, who swung Canada hard to the left when he became PM. Canada used to be a lot more middle of the road than it is now.

Of course, the implication is that if you don't agree with the Liberals, you aren't Canadian. Worked well for Martin this last election in attacking Harper.

EDIT: Whoops, huge blunder there; I wrote east and not west. My bad.




shit, Im sorry, I thought for some reason the voting patterns of Canadians somehow reflected their values.

????????????

no, you are still Canadian if you dont agree with the other 70% of Canadians, but guess what? if 70% of Canadians hold these values, and have for the past 30 years, then its pretty logical to say that these are "Canadian values".


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2892123 - 07/15/04 01:30 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Ancalagon:I don't care much for a code of morals that condones and encourages blatant theft.

yes, you cant see outside your dogma, congrats. When a bunch of people pool their money together to pay for things of mutual benefit, it isnt theft......think that idea through before you use the word "theft" again.

Ancalagon: What the hell? I'm debating with you buddy, not outlining my plans for a Coup that will overthrow your government and set up what I feel is a better one. I am of the opinion that socialism is a horrible and immoral system that consists of total theft and denial of property rights and thus human rights.


haha, okay. So you believe their is only ONE correct political choice, right? your way is the only "moral" way. And even if a nation such as Canada democratically chooses a way that we think is best for us, we are still wrong, and we are immoral.

thats very disturbing.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: The CBC [Re: Phred]
    #2892233 - 07/15/04 02:35 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

How bitter can a country make somebody?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The CBC [Re: Positronius]
    #2892319 - 07/15/04 03:56 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When a bunch of people pool their money together to pay for things of mutual benefit, it isnt theft



As long as they pool their monies by their own choosing. Once their money is pooled for them, it's a different matter.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: The CBC [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2892333 - 07/15/04 04:25 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

everyone in Canada has the option to not pay taxes and move into the wilderness where they dont have to be burdened by all those terrible things taxes creat: roads, schools, hospitals, universities, police, parks etc etc


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: The CBC [Re: Kasumeat]
    #2892658 - 07/15/04 07:59 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

In retrospect, you didn't really do either. You were being vague, and I misinterpereted you. Sorry.




I was being crystal clear, but apology accepted.

Quote:

[Holocaust=taxes]



Why do you have such a problem with refuting what I say as opposed to your deranged fucking interpretation of what I say? I did not say taxes are equal to the events of the Holocaust, AT ALL, EVER, ANYWHERE. I said that your logic of taxes being voluntary because someone who disagrees can leave at any time is the same logic that could have been presented to a jew in 1938 Germany...that argument is spurious.

Quote:


That's the most disgusting thing I think I've ever heard come up in a serious political debate.



Cry me a fucking river. YOU interpreted it in such a way that it was disgusting, I did not intend it to be construed in that manner(if I did, I would have written it as such).

Quote:

quite literally equated socialism with surpression of humans rights,



Socialism remains the surpression of rights. I still await a response to that besides the 'it's not forced, you can leave whenever you want, go!' nonsense. It is a violation of human rights. A majority of people are taking money that you have earned and distributing it as they see fit. Please, show me how this is not theft.

Quote:

You're not worth any more of my time.



That's a shame.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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