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TantricBioHacker
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Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems
#28745115 - 04/22/24 01:53 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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Some background feel free to skip to get to the root of the problem
So I am living in the far north of Europe so its cold and dry (during the winter months also dark).
After starting to immersing more into Norse paganism and cultures I met a shaman (Völva) who introduced me to different strains of mushrooms both from our fauna and ones more famous ones that have been cultivated.
She orders grow kit. Noticed my interest and the path so got two growth kits of B+ off of her.
Very early on me and one of my partners felt the urge to start exploring the technique and to start to grow it. During my micro-dosing.
During our second yield Start My partner took some beautiful spore prints.
Spore to Agar We had watched Philly Golden Teachers stuff mostly along with some other stuff but we followed the agar files as the bible. We got some great petri dishes and instant results with little contam despite not using the boxes, laminar air flows or other things. But gloves masks, scalpels and lots of iso-propane alcohol, pressure cooker.
So made agar several times transferred mycelium from the strongest petri into new ones and kept on refining the culture.
Agar into Grain Following Philly Golden Teachers advised we used popcorn kernels and brown rice for the inoculation.
First round was with popcorn No soaking or pre boiling I just pressured cooked (pasteurized) and maybe a bit hasty since its suppose be food grade quality I figure no need to overdo it as with birdseed. I inoculated my first agar petri dish of mycelium to it and then sealed kept it in my warmest cupboard above the refrigerator where my grow kits thrive. so basically 70-80f (21-23c)
This one might of been spoiled by the popcorn kernels that were a bit too warm still. One week later I used brown (raw rice) also no pre cooking pasteurizing for under an 40min. And dry. I inoculated that as well.
I am now 4 weeks in and getting desperate as nothing has happened 4 (weeks with Popcorn) 3 (week with brown rice) 2 (weeks ago I added another petri dish of agar in the corn jar) The Brown rice has gotten some sticky clusters around the agar of rice but it hasn't been open.
So I started researching. People are talking about air exchange. That if I'm using sealed containers I should air them (something that Philly GT completely omitted feel like a student lead astray here)
I watched more grain videos from Fungalia HE talks about cooking and soaking. Everybody talks about inoculation with liquid culture.
I have now cooked up my first liquid. Still haven't inoculated it. I have like to petri dishes of perfect mycelium on agar left that were ripe already half a week ago and that now risk getting contam soon.
Being forced to field a lot of probing questions from people as I asked my family if I can get some syringes.
There is a really funky smell like cheesey coming from the grain jars. I have started airing them and am currently covering them with a rubber band and some baking paper instead of the traditional closed lid.
Specific Questions
1. What should I do with my last petri dish (transfer to liquid with scalpel, wait for syringe and transfer to liquid, make a new grain batch and transfer to liquid?
2. Is there any hope for my grain jars where the mycelium is from what I understood in Stasis
3. How do you guys store inoculated grain jars?
Edited by TantricBioHacker (04/22/24 02:02 AM)
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker] 1
#28745138 - 04/22/24 03:05 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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How long did you pressure cook them for and at what pressure exactly? Did you vent the PC properly before and after sterilizing? Did you use a still air box?
1. Keep it around if it's clean and make other transfers to have more to propagate
2. Probably not if it smells like ass it means your mycelium has to compete with other micro organisms and in the case of p. cubensis and most other psilocybes that means they're fucked
3. On a shelf in a room with ambient light or near my tubs with 12/12 light cycles, nothing special. Make sure that if your lids are not modded you give them a little turn just so they're not tightly screwed on, and don't move them around too much
PS: Petri dishes will not contam if you don't introduce contams to them and store them properly. Same with anything if it's sterilized properly beforehand really, except maybe some grains and extreme cases (like storing a jar for over a month without inoculation)
PPS: I recommend you read more information on this forum rather than watching youtube videos which are often misleading, I'm not sure about philly in particular but your odds will be much better in any case. Start with the Hitchhiker's Guide
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LyleChipperson


Registered: 09/29/23
Posts: 130
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong] 2
#28745146 - 04/22/24 03:18 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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What I understood from your post is that you tried to inoculate grain jars that were not hydrated by boiling the grain, but instead you pressure cooked them dry? I wouldn't expect anything from jars prepped this way. Good spawn smells like clean mushrooms, so the ones that smell like cheese are most likely garbage.
I'd advise you to first read these threads: Hitchhiker's guide, Updated PF tek, SAB tek, Lid Tek, Contamination
Stop watching random videos, the information is almost always incomplete or outright false, leading to a lot of failures and misunderstanding the cultivation process. Read the up-to-date teks here on the forum instead. Learn how to use the search engine, limit results to the last 2-3 years for the most current information.
Make an SAB if you don't use one already. Prep your lids to allow gas exchange, don't open jars that aren't fully colonized yet. Learn the difference between pasteurization, sanitization and sterilization.
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745166 - 04/22/24 03:48 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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MrJong:
I pressure cook at 15psi I have the IKEA pressure cooker so there are just three mods on it: Off, I, II (the II should correspond to 15psi) I pressure cook grain for quite short time as I thought its food grade and that the mycelium should be at a stage where it can outcompete other bacteria.
Recommended time for pressure cooking grain was like +2hours but I thought thats not so enviornmental friendly.
Regarding the Still Air Box I will never use that.
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker]
#28745169 - 04/22/24 03:54 AM (2 months, 4 days ago) |
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You will need a pseudo/sterile environment to inoculate properly, if you want high success rates. Inoculating in ambient air will make you grow mold over anything else. Cubensis does not outcompete bacteria and mold, it depends on very specific beneficial bacteria in the wild to survive (granted wild ones might be a bit more resilient than domestic, but they still rely on it greatly).
That is a still air box or a laminar flow hood. As far as sterilization goes, I think it's much more environmentally friendly to run it once for 2 hours and make sure you go through rather than do 8 40 minutes attempts that only grow slime and green.
Although to be fair, at 15 PSI you're looking closer to 1:10 to 1:30. But I doubt 40 mins cuts it. Your biggest issue though is the lack of a sterile inoculating environment.
Your other solution is doing outdoor grows if you're really after environmental friendliness. Potentially look into wood loving species for that purpose. They will kick your ass beyond any cubensis or manure loving species.
Up to you anyway. We've given you the choice.
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745171 - 04/22/24 04:02 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Also - Lyle is right on the money. Understand the differences between pasteurization, sterilization and sanitization, and how contaminants live and work. You will understand by yourself the need for everything we've mentioned.
It might have come off as rude to you but we're really just trying to give you the most straightforward correct information.
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745174 - 04/22/24 04:18 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Lyle Thanks will read up on these!
Thanks so for sure the corn spawn is getting dumped then. Also the agar in it got dark after a couple of weeks.
I mean the videos I've watched still helped me to get real nice agar cultures and spore prints. So I feel that they do hold some value. But they obviously fall short in the grain inocculation stage.
I have read the most of the hitchhiker guide and zeroed in on the spawn chapter but still that part is like 8-9 sentences long so I feel. I still need more information there. So will probably go into the rabbit holes.
I read the entire hitchhiker guide But in terms of detail I still feel that Fungalia video provide a lot of nuance (Philly Golden Teacher) less so.
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745176 - 04/22/24 04:22 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Thanks Mr.Jong
Its not my intention to come off of stubborn or obtuse.
I have however been very successful with the spore to Agar technique and have cloned several petri dishes Doing Agar to Agar. Petridishes with any trace of contam have been in the low 15-20% range.
Are you saying the actual Agar to Spawn stage is way more sensitive contamination wise? Hence the need for "Still Air Box" I rather meticulously clean the whole apartment and wipe it down with alchohol and hydrogen peroxide than have a still air box. As I feel that the still air box takes the soul out of it.
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker]
#28745177 - 04/22/24 04:26 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Basically you have to understand that mold spores are everywhere around in the air. Not just billions, a literal infinity. Numbers too large for us to ever even comprehend. And you also have them on your skin, as well as bacteria and all kinds of other micro organisms. Any single one of them that will land on a suitable environment (nutrients and water) will germinate and spread. A lot of molds are mycophages, they will entangle around other mycelium and eat them from the inside. At that point it's already over. This is why still air / sterile air (laminar flow hood) inoculation is important.
ANY suitable nutrient source must be properly sterilized and kept away from the ambient air at all times, until it's fully colonized. Once fully colonized, the mycelium will prevent the vast majority of contaminants from germinating or doing anything to them - They've already got the upper hand. What we do is basically just allowing them to do this precisely.
You can get away using a very still room and closet probably with masks and being very careful, it's just really a pain in the ass and provides quite random results when you can just get a plastic tote and cut holes in it.
In a still air environment, gravity becomes the dominant force and will pull those contaminations right down to the floor after a while.
Both those youtubers use either a still air box or a flow hood to do their work - regardless of whether the info they give out is entirely correct or not, they've still got sterile technique nailed down to a point.
I'm glad you're open to learning - you didn't sound so open in your previous post in my eyes.
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745179 - 04/22/24 04:31 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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The still air box does not take the soul out of it. You have to understand what you are working with and what you are working against. You have to see it as giving your mushrooms the best chance to live their life properly without getting annihilated by a competitor organism.
Alcohol and hydrogen peroxide will kill some organisms, not all. They are ineffective against mold spores and bacterial endospores. Bleach would be much better as a surface sanitizer, but you'll get the horrible stench stuck for 2 days.
What you have to understand here is that overkill sanitization will not make up for it to the extent you believe it will.
Fire for tools will get rid of anything on them. You can't flame the air and your hands and your house in general, so you have to find a workaround for that part.
I understand where you're going from and what you're getting at - but really we are all environment lovers just as much around here, for the most part. We just want you to have the same success we do.
Edited by MrJong (04/22/24 04:37 AM)
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745212 - 04/22/24 06:10 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Ok so for the sake of getting productive in the conversation lets just assume that I'm using a SAB (still air box).
I dumped my first spawn jar in the composte I could see that some of the agar wedges had turned transformed into like long noodle shaped substance. There was green mold on some of the agar on these. However little to no inoculation so this was clearly a failure.
Thinking of pouring some of the glucose substance I had prepped for the Liquid culture on the the dry rice spawn as a last ditch gamble since it hasn't been pre cooked or soaked just dried pasterized or maybe start misting it....
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LyleChipperson


Registered: 09/29/23
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker] 3
#28745235 - 04/22/24 07:01 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I get that you're eager to get some results from your efforts so far, but there's no point in doing any last ditch gambles. You'll spend a couple weeks waiting on them and chances aren't on your side at this point in time because you are still missing crucial pieces of the process.
It would be more productive to take a couple days off, read the teks and allow some time to digest the information. It's a lot to take in at once but once you get up to date and know the reasoning behind the techniques, it will all make sense. Then you can do things properly and massively increase your chances of success.
The PF tek guide I linked above is very detailed and the tek is more resistant to contamination and cultivator mistakes compared to using grain and tubs. Probably the easiest way for you to have some success and learn how to improve would be to start a PF tek grow. Think of it as training wheels - it's generally easier to pull off than grain spawn, but it will also teach you the proper things to focus on, such as spotting contamination, spreading your risk by using several smaller containers, and learning proper surface conditions when fruiting.
While it's underway you can work on developing good SAB technique doing agar transfers and cleaning up cultures. By the time the PF tek is hopefully successful, you might have enough clean cultures on agar to inoculate grain for spawning tubs. Here's a sample grain prep tek: Rye prep. These will sometimes need to be tweaked depending on your local grain. I do my rye by boiling for 20 mins then soaking in the hot water for 30 minutes. It works the best for me. The important part is that the grain needs to be hydrated before being inoculated, so don't bother with any of the dry grains you have going currently. This is a fundamental step that hasn't been explained in the materials you've seen, and it's leading you to shooting your grow in the foot before the race has even started.
Look up which would be cheapest for you to get from rye, oats, wheat, wbs or millet, search the forums for ""whatever grain you choose" prep tek" and you'll be able to find guides that will give you directions for your grain of choice.
Once you have more agar going, you can post pictures of your cultures and get some feedback. The more experienced growers will be able to help confirm that your plates are clean and spare you some trouble down the line.
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: LyleChipperson]
#28745269 - 04/22/24 07:57 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Thank you Very good feedback LyleChipperson!
Stupid question what does PF mean? I am skimming through the PF Guide and got a bit confused as it speaks about drowning/submerging the cakes (something I have done successfully with my pre ordered growth kits to produce multiple flushes).
It also brings up both vermiculate and coir which are the two substances I was planning to make my substrate tubs on.
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LewDoja
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker] 1
#28745440 - 04/22/24 12:04 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
TantricBioHacker said: Regarding the Still Air Box I will never use that.
Or a flow hood?
There are some ppl that use clear trash can liners as a SAB.
Anywho, you do you. Just don't expect great results or better answers to why you have no shrooms and funky smells coming from cupboard.
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LewDoja
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker]
#28745444 - 04/22/24 12:08 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
TantricBioHacker said: Thank you Very good feedback LyleChipperson!
Stupid question what does PF mean? I am skimming through the PF Guide and got a bit confused as it speaks about drowning/submerging the cakes (something I have done successfully with my pre ordered growth kits to produce multiple flushes).
It also brings up both vermiculate and coir which are the two substances I was planning to make my substrate tubs on.
https://www.zamnesia.com/content/545-how-to-prepare-a-pf-tek
Quote:
The Psilocybe fanaticus technique (PF tek) was developed by Robert “Billy” McPherson in 1991. It describes a method of cultivating Psilocybe cubensis (magic mushrooms) at home, without the use of specialist equipment. It was the first, and by many considered the best, method for fairly straightforward home growing. That’s not to say that a PF tek doesn't have some degree of difficulty, but that it is open to anyone, of any skill level.
It's just that guy's nickname/username.
Edited by LewDoja (04/22/24 12:09 PM)
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker]
#28745472 - 04/22/24 12:42 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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Just passing by to add that nothing's ever soulless by the way. It's all dependent on how you look at it. If it takes me being a fookin' hardcore lab-dwelling scientist to make my mycelium happy, then I'll do it no problem. I like working with that organism and providing everything it needs to live the best life it can, if you will.
Take care of it and it will take care of you as they say.
A bit of a tangent but it's just like how people mistake "synthetic" and "chemical" all the time. Every compound ever IS in fact, natural - and every natural compound is in fact, a chemical. They are all made of the same atoms arranged differently, etc. Humans are part of nature. Mushrooms are mini-chem labs. Very fuckin' wild ones at that because the biosynthesis they perform is still above our heads especially at their scale. We both as species manipulate atoms to transform them into other things. We just have different ways of doing so.
All you need is just to view things under a different angle.
...Which mushrooms should allow you to do. Boom, full circle.
Edited by MrJong (04/22/24 12:50 PM)
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MethodicalMystical
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28745584 - 04/22/24 03:48 PM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I've seen people treating their SABs like altars. It's only soulless if you deprive it of that yourself
-------------------- I know I'm a fool, but that's why I keep trying to learn.
 
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: LewDoja]
#28746095 - 04/23/24 02:45 AM (2 months, 3 days ago) |
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I read up on the PF Tek so will definetley try this as a pararell method. There is a problem my current agar inoculation won't work with PF TEK.
So I will need to develop a liquid culture prior to creating the cakes. Also found a video on it (that most of you will hate but it helps me tie a lot of the nots together)
Its from Fresh Cap Mushrooom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jkZKbip3Po
- - This guy is basically using no SAB or Laminar Air flow.
- - He seems to be not wearing gloves or masks (something I always do)
- - He works in his kitchen which after bathroom/toilet is second most bacteria and mold friendly spot
- - He is using mostly his fingers along with blunt kitchen appliances such as forks and knives (rather than scalpels and the like)
So is PF tek so much more contamination reslient?
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MrJong
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: TantricBioHacker]
#28746131 - 04/23/24 04:33 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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For PF tek all you need is to have the syringe red hot when you plant it into it. The first part where you make your own liquid inoculant definitely needs more advanced sterile technique though.
To make a liquid culture/inoculant the best process is as follows:
Spores -> Agar -> Clean piece to liquid culture -> Suck up liquid culture into syringe -> Test cleanliness on agar -> If clean, shoot into PF tek
Bacteria has a harder time spreading in PF cakes (especially if it's a bit on the drier side, not TOO dry tho) than grains, and rice flour is usually very low on contams in the first place and that means it's also easier to sterilize. Low volume and compactness means the heat spreads better throughout too.
Doesn't mean it's impossible for cakes to get turbo bacterial though.
Gloves (they can help with pieces of skin and hair flying off your hands) and masks aren't generally useful but if you're working outside of a SAB/Hood it's recommended you do because your breath and slightest bodily movement will create large air movements in your surroundings.
If you plan on doing open air inoculation I'd recommend you look into hypochlorous acid. It's a sanitizer but it is actually quite effective against a very large spectrum of contams.
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TantricBioHacker
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Re: Maiden Voyage from Spore to Mushroom grain inoculation problems [Re: MrJong]
#28746156 - 04/23/24 05:23 AM (2 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
MrJong said: For PF tek all you need is to have the syringe red hot when you plant it into it. The first part where you make your own liquid inoculant definitely needs more advanced sterile technique though.
To make a liquid culture/inoculant the best process is as follows:
Spores -> Agar -> Clean piece to liquid culture -> Suck up liquid culture into syringe -> Test cleanliness on agar -> If clean, shoot into PF tek
Bacteria has a harder time spreading in PF cakes (especially if it's a bit on the drier side, not TOO dry tho) than grains, and rice flour is usually very low on contams in the first place and that means it's also easier to sterilize. Low volume and compactness means the heat spreads better throughout too.
Just ordered syringes with needles which in my country is viewed as a controlled material (enabler to prohibited controlled substances). Many of the pharmacies only give out with recipes, or you can bulk order but then you have to do it as a company.
So hopefully this doesn't shed unwanted light on my burguoning mycology voyage... Which is a bit frustrating as I might of just as well have ordered them straight with LC from Zamnesia then.
@MrJong So if I understand you correctly regarding liquid culture
1.Spore on Agar 2. Get the good mycelium on agar going 3. Create glucose base for liquid culture. 4. Add some of the glucose liquid (with clean syringe) on mycelium on agar dish 5. Scrape of agar into liquid culture 6. Suck up with needle 7. add mycelium in liquid to Glucose liquid 8. Wait for it to turn to liquid culture 9. Test it on clean agar petri dishes 10. if it leads to mycelium growing in 4-5 days the Green light remaining LC for inoculation of cakes 11. Inocculate PF cakes (Brown rice, vermiculate mixture) 12. put into fruiting tub wait for fruiting
So how long would you say the contam test on (point 9) on agar dish would need to take to see that my LC is clean enough?</font>
Edited by TantricBioHacker (04/23/24 05:25 AM)
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