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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed
    #2873692 - 07/09/04 06:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-bush-records.html
Quote:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Microfilm records related to President Bush's service in the Air National Guard three decades ago were accidentally destroyed when the military tried to improve its files, the Pentagon said on Friday.

Payroll records of large numbers of service members, including Bush, were ruined in 1996 and 1997 in a project to save large, brittle rolls of microfilm, Defense Finance and Accounting Service spokesman Bryan Hubbard told Reuters.

Bush's whereabouts during his service as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard in the United States during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue, with some Democrats accusing him of shirking his duty.

The destroyed files kept in Denver on deteriorating 2,000-foot rolls of microfilm covered three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Bush's claims of service with the guard in Alabama are in question.

``It (the film) just crumbled. We were attempting to improve the preservation,'' Hubbard told Reuters. He said he did not know why the destruction had not been previously announced.

The White House said it has already been shown that Bush performed his duties in the National Guard.

``We released all of the documents that are available. We made that clear at the time and they demonstrate that the president fulfilled his duties in the National Guard at the time. And there is nothing new in this report,'' said White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan.

HUNDREDS OF PAGES

Last February, the White House released hundreds of pages of Bush's military records. Those records did not provide new evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972, when some Democrats say he was basically absent without leave.

The White House said on Friday that it had included a footnote to those earlier records saying that files for the 3rd quarter of 1972 had apparently been lost in microfilm processing.

``This whole thing was inadvertent. It happened a long time ago at a files storage site in Denver,'' a senior defense official, who asked not to be identified, said.

The Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information said in a letter obtained by Reuters that records of a large number of National Guard members were damaged, including from the first quarter of 1969 and the third quarter of 1972.

``Searches for backup copies of the missing records were unsuccessful,'' said the letter, dated June 25 and signed by C.Y. Talbott, chief of the Pentagon's Office of Freedom of Information.

The 1969 period is not in dispute for Bush, who was training at that time to be a pilot.

But in May 1972, he moved to Alabama to work on a political campaign and, he has said, to perform his Guard service there for a year. But other Guard officers have said they had no recollection of ever seeing him there.

The New York Times, which first reported the disclosure, noted that the White House had produced records showing that Bush was paid for six days in October and November 1972, but those records did not say where he was at the time. Also provided was the record of a dental exam at a Montgomery, Alabama, air base on Jan. 6, 1973.



How convenient, accidently destroyed. If it was right there the entire time, why not release it if there wasn't anything to hide?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: daussaulit]
    #2875812 - 07/10/04 01:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

An unassuming looking visitor or employee walks into a room filled with microfilm.He carefully finds the correct films and releases a small amount of a strong gaseous oxidizer such as N2O4 into the container and then leaves.The microfilm is rendered unusably brittle in a week or so and all traces of the oxidizer have vanished.
Nah......neva happen
WR:wexican:
PS I do not run ANY scenario which I do not believe I myself could accomplish.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: daussaulit]
    #2875948 - 07/10/04 03:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, what are the chances?





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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Learyfan]
    #2876406 - 07/10/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

About 100%.

Hitler was right. Say the Big Lie and do the Big Crime in broad daylight and the sheeple will accept it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Swami]
    #2877505 - 07/11/04 09:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Swami writes:

Say the Big Lie and do the Big Crime in broad daylight and the sheeple will accept it.

The implication here, given the context of the discussion so far, is that Bush has said the Big Lie and committed the Big Crime. Would you care to identify for us specifically which of Bush's statements qualifies as the Big Lie and which of Bush's actions qualifies as the Big Crime?

Thanks.

pinky


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Phred]
    #2877526 - 07/11/04 10:02 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

One cannot show what another is UNWILLING to see.
He is a politician....there is your big lie,he is a nepotistic quasi-ruler figurehead for corporate interests.Politician implies debate and process Geedub is big on neither and is certainly no politician.

The Big Crime...The invasion, under false pretenses,of two countries for the purpose of securing oil access to the "stan" countries and the second largest(debatable) oil reserve on the planet.Including the cronyism which Dick Cheney is benefiting by and bribing corporate heads and heads of state with.
That's only two I came up with before my coffee, were I to spend my whole day filling bandwidth with links and articles outlining the questionable nature of the present regime,it would still not sway the staunchly blinded followers,sheeple I believe was used,but one must include idealogues and special interest into the equation of the american political spectacle
WR:wexican:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: whiterasta]
    #2877564 - 07/11/04 10:19 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I was actually hoping that Swami would answer, but until he shows up I guess I can spend some time on your reply....

He is a politician....there is your big lie,he is a nepotistic quasi-ruler figurehead for corporate interests.Politician implies debate and process Geedub is big on neither and is certainly no politician.

Sorry, I don't get this at all. Either he is a politician or he is not. By definition, as an ex-governor of Texas and current president of the United States, he is in fact a politician. How does the mere fact of his being a politician show he has said "the Big Lie"?

The Big Crime...The invasion, under false pretenses,of two countries for the purpose of securing oil access to the "stan" countries and the second largest(debatable) oil reserve on the planet.

How was the invasion of either country "the Big Crime"? Afghanistan was invaded because the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden. You will note that it was an international effort, and that it was one of only four UN-approved invasions ever. Why is it Bush rather than the UN being accused of having committed "the Big Crime" here?

Moving on.... Iraq was invaded (again through an international effort) because not a single one of the terms of the conditional ceasefire signed in 1991 had been fulfilled. Fraudulently signing a ceasefire agreement could be considered "the Big Crime", I guess, but it certainly wasn't Bush who did that. Help me out here.

As for the tired old "oil" argument, please note that the US has seized no oil in either country or in any other country, for that matter. The US buys its oil at the price the sellers agree to sell it for.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: whiterasta]
    #2877577 - 07/11/04 10:25 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So your cognitive process is to believe anything that you want to believe?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2877605 - 07/11/04 10:42 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Certainly I beleive what I want to,It is what I know that I act on.In fact I can believe any number of things I do not "know".I mostly post beliefs as hunting up links to argue on the internet is futile and inefectual.Beliefs can be challenged, modified or dropped.Knowlege of something is proven and much more static.
I post what I believe about our leaders and government and have signed many papers saying I will burn for telling what I "KNOW".Having several security cleared, background checked "jobs" in my past has given me insight into some of my beliefs but it is what I know which scares the shit outa me.
PS belief is just the hypothesis you use until proof and knowlege are aquired.
I can believe any number of things about our admin and I know a few things about them.What I KNOW is I wish them gone from the whitehouse and some held on charges(Dick Cheney for one).
WR:wexican:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Phred]
    #2877625 - 07/11/04 10:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I guess I can spend some time addressing your lack of understanding and condescending attitude.
Quote:

Sorry, I don't get this at all. Either he is a politician or he is not. By definition, as an ex-governor of Texas and current president of the United States, he is in fact a politician. How does the mere fact of his being a politician show he has said "the Big Lie"?
 



I always am amazed at how easily "conservatives" forget the platform Geedub ran on and how it 180ed once elected.No 9/11 is no excuse for the outright reverals of policy upon which he campaigned.This is the biggest lie as none of the campaign promises were EVER part of the plan.

Quote:

How was the invasion of either country "the Big Crime"? Afghanistan was invaded because the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden. You will note that it was an international effort, and that it was one of only four UN-approved invasions ever. Why is it Bush rather than the UN being accused of having committed "the Big Crime" here?



We have been searching for a couple years for the bastard in a world wide manhunt what on earth makes you believe Afghanistan COULD have handed him over?
BTW how is progress on the pipeline through Afghanistan from the northern Stan oil regions coming along?Has it reached all our new processing facilities in Iraq?
In addition your claim of an "international" intervention is stretching things when our staunchest allies (except our lil butt buddy Great Britain)protested our intervention and your "international" includes a couple troops from a few insignificant welfare states.
WR:wexican:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: whiterasta]
    #2877702 - 07/11/04 11:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

whiterasta writes:

I always am amazed at how easily "conservatives" forget the platform Geedub ran on and how it 180ed once elected.No 9/11 is no excuse for the outright reverals of policy upon which he campaigned.This is the biggest lie as none of the campaign promises were EVER part of the plan.

So the fact that Bush hasn't delivered on his campaign promises (which ones, by the way?) qualifies as "the Big Lie"?

1) All politicians default on campaign promises.
2) Doing so is not "the Big Lie".

We have been searching for a couple years for the bastard in a world wide manhunt what on earth makes you believe Afghanistan COULD have handed him over?

The undisputed fact that the head of the Taliban and bin Laden were asshole buddies. Countless witnesses have described seeing the two together.

However, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that after September 11, 2001 bin Laden severed all contact with his Taliban buds and went into hiding. The Taliban still refused to allow UN personnel to enter Afghanistan and search for bin Laden. The Taliban even went so far as to threaten to attack any neighbouring countries who allowed US troops to enter.

Come on, WR -- this is old news. The media has reported extensively on all of this.

BTW how is progress on the pipeline through Afghanistan from the northern Stan oil regions coming along?

It's dead in the water. Unocal dropped all interest in the matter in 1998. No Western country has as yet chosen to bid on such a project. To the best of my knowledge, no Eastern country has either.

Has it reached all our new processing facilities in Iraq?

Seeing as how the proposed trans-Afghanistan pipeline was a natural gas pipeline, no processing would have been required, had anyone ever chosen to bid on the project in the first place.

And of course -- as anyone with the inclination to look at a globe or to call up a map of the world on an internet site could tell you -- in order for anything flowing through a pipeline in Afghanistan to be processed in Iraq, the pipeline would have to cross several hundred miles of Iranian real estate. What do you think the odds might be of the Iranians buying into that?

In addition your claim of an "international" intervention is stretching things...

A UN-approved intervention (Afghanistan) doesn't qualify as international in your book? Okay then. A group of more than thirty countries doesn't qualify as international? Remember there are only around 190 countries in the world.

... when our staunchest allies...

Germany and France, you mean?

... (except our lil butt buddy Great Britain)protested our intervention and your "international" includes a couple troops from a few insignificant welfare states.

Italy, Spain, Australia, Poland... these are "insignificant" in your view? Okay then. I'll admit they are welfare states, but then so is pretty much every country in the world these days. Germany and France certainly are.

pinky


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Phred]
    #2877909 - 07/11/04 01:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

www.bushlies.net

Conveniently breaks Bush's many, many lies into four different categories: 9-11 Lies, Tax and Deficit lies, Lies A to Z, and Campaign Lies. Provides references.

You may find it educational since you apparently cling to the irrational belief that the man is trustworthy.


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: daussaulit]
    #2877965 - 07/11/04 01:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed"

Oh my... isn't that convenient :laugh:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2877987 - 07/11/04 02:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Context, EchoVortex, context. The phrase "The Big Lie" has a specific connotation. I merely ask Swami to provide for us which of Bush's statements he feels qualifies as "The Big Lie".

pinky


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Phred]
    #2879853 - 07/12/04 12:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

One of the "Big Lies" is that there is a Saddam-al-Qaeda connection. Cheney (with the tacit approval of Bush, who has said nothing to the contrary) continues to reiterate this Big Lie despite the fact that the 9/11 Commission has dismissed it. Of course one of the characteristics of a "Big Lie" is that numerous other lies have to be fabricated to sustain it, which is what Cheney does when he claims for example that he has access to classified information about the matter that the commission doesn't--he doesn't. And even if he did, to claim that anything US "intelligence" coughs up is proof of anything is erroneous, given the abominable track record of same. They've cried "Wolf!" one too many times for that trick to work again. Actually, as I recall, that was one of your own favorite tactics in the run-up to war--"They have access to intelligence we don't! They know things about Saddam we don't!" LOL. They didn't know shit.

So tell me anyway, do you think Bush is not a liar? Given your recent spate of "such and such is a liar!" posts, you make it sound as if in any case of Bush's word against somebody else's, you'll take Bush's word.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2881232 - 07/12/04 06:39 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

EchoVortex writes:

One of the "Big Lies" is that there is a Saddam-al-Qaeda connection.

Oh, come on! That's not a "Big Lie," that's not even a fib. There was a Saddam - Al Qaeda connection. That is not debatable. Hell, even Time and Newsweek and others have reported on connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq as far back as the late Nineties.

What is debatable is whether or not Hussein had anything to do with the attacks of September 11, 2001. And you will note that no one in the Bush administration has ever claimed he did, and when asked point blank by reporters whether they think he did, both Bush and Rumsfeld have said they don't.

Try again.

So tell me anyway, do you think Bush is not a liar?

No more than any other politician and better than many.

Given your recent spate of "such and such is a liar!" posts, you make it sound as if in any case of Bush's word against somebody else's, you'll take Bush's word.

"Spate"? Good grief. I posted exactly two -- one about Michael Moore which had nothing to do with Bush but rather with Tom Daschle (no Bush fan), the other to do with Joseph Wilson's self-serving gibberish.

pinky


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Key Bush Military Service Files Destroyed [Re: Phred]
    #2881404 - 07/12/04 09:55 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, come on! That's not a "Big Lie," that's not even a fib. There was a Saddam - Al Qaeda connection. That is not debatable. Hell, even Time and Newsweek and others have reported on connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq as far back as the late Nineties.

No Pinky, you come on. What exactly do you mean by "connections"? What, that an Iraqi military officer may have once had coffee with somebody from al-Qaeda? There is no evidence of a collaboration, no evidence of a working relationship, and certainly no evidence of a 9-11 link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/politi...tner=ALTAVISTA1

WASHINGTON, July 11 - The commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks is nearing completion of a final, probably unanimous report that will stand by the conclusions of the panel's staff and largely dismiss White House theories both about a close working relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda and about possible Iraqi involvement in Sept. 11, commission officials said.

[ . . . ]

The panel's staff created controversy last month with an interim report that largely discounted theories about close ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, another major justification cited by the Bush administration for invading Iraq.

The staff report found that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and Al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States" and that repeated contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda "do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship."

The staff also said that it did not believe a widely circulated report from Czech intelligence that a ringleader of the Sept. 11 attacks met in Prague with an Iraqi intelligence officer in April 2001, suggesting Iraqi involvement in the attacks.

The findings were in marked contrast to statements by President Bush and, more often, Vice President Dick Cheney, who has been the administration's lead spokesman in arguing that an alliance existed between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

Though Mr. Cheney insisted that he had no major differences with the commission and that the debate was being mischaracterized in news reports, the vice president responded to the staff report last month by telling a television interviewer that "there clearly was a relationship" between President Saddam Hussein of Iraq and Al Qaeda and that "the evidence is overwhelming," noting that he "probably" had access to intelligence information not reviewed by the commission. He also insisted that the Czech intelligence report might be credible.

Despite initial suggestions from the commission's leaders that they might rewrite the staff report to limit its conclusions that discounted a possible Iraq-Qaeda tie, commission members and the panel's chief spokesman said last week that the panel had decided to stand by the staff in the final report.

That reasoning was bolstered last week by the findings of the Senate intelligence committee, which cited several classified intelligence reviews prepared by the C.I.A. after Sept. 11 that suggested that evidence of a close relation between Iraq and Al Qaeda was "murky" and at times contradictory. The Senate committee said the C.I.A. had "reasonably concluded" that contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda "did not add up to an established formal relationship" between Mr. Hussein and the terror network.


What is debatable is whether or not Hussein had anything to do with the attacks of September 11, 2001. And you will note that no one in the Bush administration has ever claimed he did, and when asked point blank by reporters whether they think he did, both Bush and Rumsfeld have said they don't.

Do you have any sources on that? Given that Rumsfeld said "we know where they are" before the war in reference to the WMD, he's pretty much capable of saying anything he happens to pull out of his ass.

So tell me anyway, do you think Bush is not a liar?

No more than any other politician and better than many.


Oh man, this is too funny. You bend over backwards repeatedly not only to give the benefit of the doubt to, but actually to support the veracity of one of the most dishonest presidents in modern history, not to mention one who has overseen a massive expansion in the size and intrusiveness of federal government. You join in on the smear campaigns and ad hominem attacks against his critics and detractors and yet defend his integrity on practically every factually false statement he has made. With "minarchists" like you around, who the hell needs Statists?

Bush's statements, and the facts that contradict them, are a matter of public record. Keep living in your world of delusions, the facts won't change.


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