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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
*Ding! Ding!* We have a winner!
    #2870968 - 07/08/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, the thousandth US soldier killed today. :frown:

Swami: Frank, tell him what he has won.

Frank: Well, Swami, he has won an all-expense paid trip to eternity plus a gen-u-wine American flag to be placed on his casket.

Swami: Wow! That is something. Anything else?

Frank: Well he goes to his rest in the knowledge that he has helped to make the world more secure for Halliburton and made millions for Cheney. What more could any young man dream of?

Swami: ....?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2870984 - 07/08/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

*whistles*
"we lost a moron in the night? wooohoooo!" -bill hicks


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Invisibletyke
eschatologist

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 153
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2870986 - 07/08/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

:nonono:


--------------------
hey, that douchebag, tyke, just made a post. let's go flame 'im!


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2871035 - 07/08/04 11:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, the thousandth US soldier killed today


I declare shennanigans........it wasn't the 1000th US soldier, it was the 1000th coalition soldier. And according to this link, it wasn't the 1000th yet, its only at 998, but it may not have been updated.

link


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Skikid16]
    #2871056 - 07/08/04 11:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Oh... well, if it's only 998 soldiers dead, then that's totally different.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 11 years, 3 days
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2871068 - 07/08/04 11:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The point was that there are only about 878 US soldiers dead.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2871076 - 07/08/04 11:23 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just saying.....


2+2 =5, right?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: d33p]
    #2871097 - 07/08/04 11:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry I celebrated early.  :crazy:

*Swami hangs head, scrapes cake into the garbage and puts away the party favors for another few months...*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2871946 - 07/09/04 06:53 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

why would you celebrate?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2871957 - 07/09/04 06:59 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

How insensitive :nonono:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: DieCommie]
    #2872467 - 07/09/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Insensitive of who? Swami didn't send the poor bastards to die for him and his corporate buddies did he?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlineld50negative1
lethal dosage

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 821
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2872518 - 07/09/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Want to complain about rich politicians?
Quote:

made millions for Cheney


I'd bitch about that Kerry fuck with his yachts

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2872581 - 07/09/04 11:21 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

yeah but his money was earned "honestly" :rolleyes:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2872607 - 07/09/04 11:28 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Did we invade a nation for their tomatoes that I am unaware of?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlineblu3
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/05/04
Posts: 2,546
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Skikid16]
    #2872819 - 07/09/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Skikid16 said:
Quote:

Yes, the thousandth US soldier killed today


I declare shennanigans........it wasn't the 1000th US soldier, it was the 1000th coalition soldier. And according to this link, it wasn't the 1000th yet, its only at 998, but it may not have been updated.

link




That link is very very sad.
Just today they shipped off another 1000 soilders out of ft. carson.
Can someone please tell me whats going on?
I thought we were suppose to be pulling out of iraq?

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InvisibletrendalM
Jâ™ 
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2872836 - 07/09/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
why would you celebrate?




It's called sarcasm...one of swami's favorite things to play with :wink:

In case you need it:

Main Entry: sar?casm
Pronunciation: 's?r-"ka-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: blu3]
    #2872852 - 07/09/04 12:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

You're link proves Swami wrong. he claimed 1000 dead US soldiers. Your link shows 880.

Thanks though for exposing yet more hyperbole.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: trendal]
    #2872942 - 07/09/04 01:06 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It's called sarcasm...one of swami's favorite things to play with




No Shit.


No Shit
adv.
no1 v. shit

1. Used to express disdain for something deemed stupid or obvious, especially a self-evident remark.
2. Really, do you mean it, as in You took her to a prizefight? No shit! This vulgar slangy interjection is used to express surprise, disbelief, or scornful acknowledgment of the obvious.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibletrendalM
Jâ™ 
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2872945 - 07/09/04 01:07 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

If it was so obvious...why bother with a reply?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: trendal]
    #2872953 - 07/09/04 01:09 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

curiosity...

cu?ri?os?i?ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kyr-s-t)
n. pl. cu?ri?os?i?ties
A desire to know or learn.
A desire to know about people or things that do not concern one; nosiness.
An object that arouses interest, as by being novel or extraordinary: kept the carved bone and displayed it as a curiosity.
A strange or odd aspect.
Archaic. Fastidiousness.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibletrendalM
Jâ™ 
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2872979 - 07/09/04 01:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Well see now you've gone and contradicted yourself :wink:

If it was obvious that he was being sarcastic and not really celebrating...you can't really by curious as to why he would celebrate, now can you?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: trendal]
    #2873003 - 07/09/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Curious as to why anyone would be sarcastic over something like that perhaps?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: trendal]
    #2873011 - 07/09/04 01:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

:rolleyes:Curious, to what his reaction would be.

let it go Obi-Wan Kenobi.... (omnipotent reference)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibletrendalM
Jâ™ 
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2873094 - 07/09/04 01:41 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not a mod here any more, my padawan learner :grin:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: trendal]
    #2873102 - 07/09/04 01:42 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

oh really, well in that case, go to hell hippy!! :mad:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2873319 - 07/09/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, only 880 instead of 1000 huh? That makes a big fuckin difference...

Okay, now how many are alive but no longer have [insert vital body part here] ?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Grav]
    #2873337 - 07/09/04 02:32 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That makes a big fuckin difference



Yes, 120 IS a big difference.

Gold star for you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2873345 - 07/09/04 02:34 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Yes, 120 IS a big difference.





3 is a big difference, every time a headline comes on its 2 or 3 or 4 soldiers dead, seems to have people up in arms. If 2-3 is big, 120 is fucking massive.

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! *DELETED* [Re: Redo]
    #2875025 - 07/10/04 12:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflineRedo
CTA

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: pB0t]
    #2875036 - 07/10/04 12:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
All you pussies need to shut the fuck up.




I love nice people

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Offlinepsikooz
Stranger
Registered: 07/19/03
Posts: 1,023
Loc: Los Angeles
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Redo]
    #2875208 - 07/10/04 02:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

you guys are something else.. i tell yeah!


lol

peace and love.


IF all these americans are dieing for "disfreedom" think about how many are going to have to die for true freedom.

:eek: :mushroom2:

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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
Male
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 1,047
Loc: Wales (yes it is a countr...
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Grav]
    #2875351 - 07/10/04 04:15 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, now how many are alive but no longer have [insert vital body part here] ?




Not many I'd imagine seeing as vital means neccessary for life..
:crazy2:

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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Grav]
    #2875630 - 07/10/04 09:27 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, now how many are alive but no longer have [insert vital body part here] ?


I couldn't find how many of the casualties were missing body parts, but the total number of coalition casualties, at least according to the link and if I'm reading it correctly, is 5394.

This link has some really random, interesting way of reporting casualties, for example:


US deaths since July 2, 2003: 674
(Pres. Bush announces, "Bring Them On")


Total Fatalities since December 13, 2003: 456
(Saddam Hussein is captured)



Its also weird because they list hostile casualties, I'm no military expert, but I assume that is the number of confirmed deaths by the coalition on enemy combatants? If so, we've been loosing this year.

Total Fatalities since December 13, 2003: 456
(Saddam Hussein is captured)

Total Hostile Fatalities since December 13, 2003: 373
(Saddam Hussein is captured)


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Skikid16]
    #2875640 - 07/10/04 09:40 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Its also weird because they list hostile casualties, I'm no military expert, but I assume that is the number of confirmed deaths by the coalition on enemy combatants? If so, we've been loosing this year.

Total Fatalities since December 13, 2003: 456
(Saddam Hussein is captured)

Total Hostile Fatalities since December 13, 2003: 373
(Saddam Hussein is captured)



No, almost sure the latter number is not enemies killed. It is simply a specific categorization of coalition troops killed, the manner in which they died, etc. I believe the government currently has a policy in place that involves not reporting or attempting to report enemies dead or injured.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2875678 - 07/10/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, thanks for the explination.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: BleaK]
    #2875702 - 07/10/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
*whistles*
"we lost a moron in the night? wooohoooo!" -bill hicks




I just felt the world get lighter!!!

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! *DELETED* [Re: Redo]
    #2876074 - 07/10/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: pB0t]
    #2876201 - 07/10/04 03:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

And if anyone else uses the word "only" in front of the phrase "880 deaths", I will do what I can from my current location to curse you and your future offspring with lice and scabies for all eternity.

Only 880 deaths.
Fuck that.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2876238 - 07/10/04 04:06 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And if anyone else uses the word "only" in front of the phrase "880 deaths", I will do what I can from my current location to curse you and your future offspring with lice and scabies for all eternity.



only 880 deaths.




Well... you knew somebody would do it.    :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Put it in perspective [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2876288 - 07/10/04 04:26 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Only 800 deaths is right. We lost almost 60,000 kids in Vietnam. We could fight for another 5 decades in this "horrible quagmire" or Iraq, and we wouldn't begin to equal the losses of Vietnam. This war is going well. If you would have told me at the begining of the war that we would be where we are today with only 800 lost lives, I would have called you crazy.

Every death is indeed a tragedy. The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies. The lives we are losing in Afganistan are all tragedys. For some political reason, nobody seems to want to count those, or show the faces of the dead from Afganistan on Nightline.

War is hell. Our President wanted to go to war. He took it to our elected representatives in Congress and they voted for it. John Kerry voted for it. Our country is now at War, and the best thing to do now is win it. It is the only option in my opinion.

Considering the circumstances, things are going very well in Iraq.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2876398 - 07/10/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Male

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Swami]
    #2876454 - 07/10/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?




Because our liberal media has so ingrained it in the heads of Americans as a fucking excuse for this unjust and illegal war that even otherwise intelligent and thinking human beings use it as a self-rationalization, which is complete and utter bullshit, and we as human beings are beneath it.

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever - and to use bullshit arguments to justify the number of dead people to yourself or to other people make us all less than what we truly are. You should be ashamed of yourself, cuz I damn sure am ashamed for you. (not you, Swami...)


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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InvisiblepB0t
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Re: Put it in perspective *DELETED* [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2876488 - 07/10/04 05:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2876816 - 07/10/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston: Because our liberal media...

If you want better news, quit watching Fox or CNN and switch to the BBC. Though I'm still baffled as to why the British Parliament haven't called for a vote of confidence in Mr. Blair.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: pB0t]
    #2876921 - 07/10/04 10:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There were more losses in the first 12 months in Iraq than there were in the first 12 months in Vietnam. I'm not saying that Iraq is going to turn out the same, just that linearly extrapolating the death rate is meaningless.

Don't attempt to use logic and facts when someone is on an emotional bent. When in this mindstate, irrationality is king.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2877021 - 07/10/04 11:27 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Did we invade a nation for their tomatoes that I am unaware of?





Yes, the American revoilution was about tomatoes in much the same way that the gulf war is about oil.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2877132 - 07/11/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So you're saying that the revolutionary war was about tomatoes, then? Man, you learn something new on these boards every day, dontcha?


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2877153 - 07/11/04 12:20 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

We invaded ourselves?


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Swami]
    #2877321 - 07/11/04 02:25 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?




Sorry for the typo. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I think that 9-11 is related to the war on terror, which includes nations that habour terrorists. That is my opinion, and that is why I think it is relevant. I guess my mistake was assuming that you had heard of the war on terror.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Sclorch]
    #2877366 - 07/11/04 03:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

If you want better news, quit watching Fox or CNN and switch to the BBC.

Apparantly the BBC broadcast fewer criticisms of the WMD bullshit in the runup to the war than the american channels.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877387 - 07/11/04 03:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever - and to use bullshit arguments to justify the number of dead people to yourself or to other people make us all less than what we truly are. You should be ashamed of yourself, cuz I damn sure am ashamed for you. (not you, Swami...)




I wish nobody ever had to die. I wish that everybody thought like you, but the fact is that everybody doesn't. We are at war. Your views are simplistic and child like. Under your philosophy, we couldn't even take out Hitler. Don't be ashamed for me, try to embrace the contradictions of your own naivete.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: pB0t]
    #2877394 - 07/11/04 03:57 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Only 800 deaths is right. We lost almost 60,000 kids in Vietnam. We could fight for another 5 decades in this "horrible quagmire" or Iraq, and we wouldn't begin to equal the losses of Vietnam. This war is going well.




There were more losses in the first 12 months in Iraq than there were in the first 12 months in Vietnam. I'm not saying that Iraq is going to turn out the same, just that linearly extrapolating the death rate is meaningless.




I am expliciting saying that Iraq will not turn out the same as Vietnam. We will not have the deaths that some people have predicted. We have lost 800 thus far, we have a long way to go to 60,000. I don't expect us to get to 10,000, though I did at the begining of the war.

When nations decide to go to war, people will die. I don't like that. Nobody should like people dying. But since people do die, maybe we should have a reasonable estimate of what is a good figure. I think that only 800 deaths to this point is well beyond resonable expectations. This war has been fought well, and it is a credit to our troops and the commanders on the ground.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2877421 - 07/11/04 04:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

A war is going well if it doesn't match Vietnam death toll numbers? Makes sense.

I like how you tied the Iraq war with the 3000 lives lost on 911, Geoerge.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2877512 - 07/11/04 07:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, the honkies invaded the Americas in the late 15th century.

Read a book!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877528 - 07/11/04 08:03 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston writes:

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever -

Ah. I've been reading your posts with some interest since you first started contributing to this forum. Some of them puzzled me, but now it all makes sense. I hadn't realized until now that you were a Pacifist.

Of course a Pacifist would object to deposing Hussein by force. Although I don't agree with the philosophy behind the Pacifist position, I do understand that it is a genuine philosophical/religious belief held sincerely by many.

pinky

P.S. -- what's with the quote from a former Enron advisor doing in your signature line?


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Phred]
    #2877779 - 07/11/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

You know, I've thought about my statement and I don't think I agree with myself. There certainly are wars that are just and needed to be fought - the US entering WWII comes to mind. Casualties, while unpleasant, can be thought to contribute to the greater good and thus become relevant, if not entirely acceptable.

I think what I meant to say in an admittedly impassioned statement was something more along the lines that I believe this war, much like Vietnam, is an unjust war; an occupation serving the interests of the few with little regard to the good of the many. The casualties of this war could have been avoided, and therefore are entirely unacceptable.

As to whethere I'm a pacifist... I'm not. I'd have been happy if an Army Ranger team had been able to put a bullet through his frontal lobe prior to this conflict. He was a bad man, and the people of Iraq deserve better. Not only would I be willing to maim or kill someone who threatened the life of myself or my wife, I have gone out of my way to get trained to do so if necessary. Idealist, perhaps. Pacifist - I honestly don't think so.

Quote:

P.S. -- what's with the quote from a former Enron advisor doing in your signature line?



I found it quite relevant.

Of course I could ask:
"What is the former chief lobbyist for Chevron doing running our national security?"
"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"
I could go on...

But honestly, Pinky - thanks for the honest dissemination. I don't usually agree with you, but I have respect for your opinions. While in the end I don't agree with your pacifist notation, you at least got me to think more honestly about my own opinions on the matter.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877973 - 07/11/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston asks --

"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"

Two points on this one:

1) Despite what Michael Moore says, Karzai was never an advisor for Unocal. This urban legend has been repeated so often by the Liberal media that it has come to be accepted as fact, but it is not. This is easily verifiable.

2) The Loya Jirga (Jurga?) has confirmed Karzai as interim president.

pinky


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Phred]
    #2878197 - 07/11/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"

Two points on this one:

1) Despite what Michael Moore says, Karzai was never an advisor for Unocal. This urban legend has been repeated so often by the Liberal media that it has come to be accepted as fact, but it is not. This is easily verifiable.





I call shenanigans on this one. It is a well known  fact that Hamid Karzai  was a former advisor to UNOCAL. It's been documented  many different times from  many different sources. I'd like to see your sources showing that Karzai being an advisor to UNOCAL is an "urban legend" propogated by the "liberal media". :rolleyes:

Quote:


2) The Loya Jirga (Jurga?) has confirmed Karzai as interim president.

pinky




That doesn't mean that he (or the Loya Jirga) are running the country. Much like the "transfer of sovereignty" back to Iraq, Karzai's confirmation as president served as nothing more than a puppet show.


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"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2878713 - 07/11/04 04:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin



actually, Babs has it right. If you don't encourage your children to read, there is nothing for them to question.

Score: Babs 1, George 0. well, let's give him a 1/2.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2878829 - 07/11/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

SquattingMarmot writes:

I call shenanigans on this one. It is a well known fact that Hamid Karzai was a former advisor to UNOCAL.

So sorry, but that is incorrect. It is not a fact at all. One of the links you provided is in Dutch, and since I can't read Dutch I can't comment on it other than to say that I would be extremely surprised if they provided any source for the allegation. None of the other links you posted provided any sources either.

I'd like to see your sources showing that Karzai being an advisor to UNOCAL is an "urban legend" propogated by the "liberal media".

I've posted this before, but it's in the archives now. Here it is again. From http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/lane.htm --

*********************************************************
Jared Israel: You're right. It's not a direct quote. The only thing they're quoting are the words, "lead company." The other thing that is being asserted everywhere is that Hamid Karzai, the current head of the Afghan 'government' once worked for you.

Barry Lane: Yeah. Yeah, well that's probably one of the great urban legends. He never worked for us.

Jared Israel: He didn't work for somebody else who worked for you?

Barry Lane: No. No, not him. He was never a consultant, never an employee. We've exhaustively searched through all our records to try and find out where the hell that came from.

Jared Israel: Le Monde. Dec. 6th, 2001.

Barry Lane: Le Monde. Le Monde was the one who wrote it first and you know what's strange about it is I've asked reporters over and over again, go ask Mr. Karzai himself. And nobody has.

Jared Israel: Well the argument is that there is something sinister and therefore you would both deny it anyway. But my argument is in order to posit that this relationship existed in the first place you have to have some evidence - something - but all le Monde has is their own assertion. They just say he was a consultant. They say, "At one time." Not even a date. And no source. And then all these writers repeat this as if Le Monde's assertion is enough to counter your denial. I mean, you can't use the fact that somebody denies something to prove it's true.

Barry Lane: Hey, it makes a great story. But I gotta tell you, our CEO was asked this kind of question about the project at the annual meeting, in May, and he was absolutely emphatic that we have no interest, no plans. I'm not sure what part of that is confusing for people.

*****************************************

As I found out when I was researching this for my post in the archives, the entire "Karzai was a Unocal employee/consultant" mantra rests solely on a single unsubstantiated article in a Lefty French rag. From http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm --

The origin of the claim appears to be a December 6, 2001 story in the leftist French newspaper Le Monde. The story does not cite any source for its claim. (The story is available on-line from Le Monde's website; registration and payment are required.) The actual sentence was "Apr?s Kaboul et l'Inde ou il a ?tudi? le droit, il a parfait sa formation aux Etats-Unis ou il fut un moment consultant de l'enterprise p?troli?re am?ricaine Unocal, quand celle-ci ?tudiant la construction d'un ol?duc en Afghanistan." Translated: After Kabul and India where he had studied law, he completed his training in the United States where he was briefly (literally: "for a moment") a consultant for the American petroleum business Unocal, when it was studying the construction of a pipeline in Afghanistan." Neither Le Monde nor Moore has provided any evidence to substantiate the claim about Unocal and Karzai.

*************************************

That doesn't mean that he (or the Loya Jirga) are running the country.

It may be claimed that no one is running the country as a whole, yes. Apparently there are parts of Afghanistan where the de facto "governing power" is the local warlord. But Karzai is the head cheese, and he's the head cheese because the Loya Jirga endorsed him. There is no counterpart to Bremer in Afghanistan. Hell, there were never more than 5,000 American troops there. Surely no one who thinks about it for very long will try to claim that the US is running the show there the way they were in Iraq until recently.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2882094 - 07/12/04 12:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Insensitive of who? Swami didn't send the poor bastards to die for him and his corporate buddies did he?




Nobody sent those soldiers to die,,,they all signed up voluntarily of thier own free will.... :thumbdown:


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Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2882152 - 07/12/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Nobody sent those soldiers to die,,,they all signed up voluntarily of thier own free will.... :thumbdown:



Actually, that is not entirely true.  Yes, they did sign up, but there are many who should already be out by the terms of their contracts.  The U.S. government has issued stop loss orders to prevent soldiers who were eligible to leave or retire from leaving, in effect this is drafting the soldiers beyond the terms of their commitments and the contracts that the government had with them.  This is not voluntary and is in fact involuntary servitude.  Remember, the constitution is void where prohibited by law.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882172 - 07/12/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong but the common soldier makes an 8 year obligation when they sign up. If a soldier signs up for 8 years they sign up for 4 active duty and 4 In-active duty. The army can call you anytime they feel within that 8 year period.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882190 - 07/12/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Are these stop loss orders a new thing? If investigated thouroughly would not a person signing up for the military be aware of such a possiblility? Im not sure how it works exactly, but if it was alwqays a possiblility they can hardly complain.....after all most sign up so they can get cheap schooling or other 'incentives',,,,if they don't read between the lines and a situation comes up and they need to serve, thats a consequence to thier decision to serve.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882208 - 07/12/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

These are past the full commitment, that's why I brought them up. The stop loss orders started* during the Klinton adminstration because too many experienced soldiers did not want to re-enlist in a military that had become exceedingly top heavy, a testing ground for all the PC bullshit that the dumbocraps want to force on everyone and involved in nation building and police work in fucked up countries (NOT a soldiers job).

* edit - I should have said the most recent round of stop loss orders started during Klinton, prior to that they were used during the buildup for the first gulf war.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/12/04 01:04 PM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882233 - 07/12/04 01:05 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The stop loss orders started during the Klinton adminstration because too many experienced soldiers did not want to re-enlist in a military that had become exceedingly top heavy,




The military was offering early "outs" at the end of my enlistments to "every" soldier (atleast those near me). The number one reason many got out was that Klinton was president and they didn't want to fight for him. As far as being top heavy, I was just a sgt so i wouldn't know.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882262 - 07/12/04 01:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

By brother is a reservist SF Master Sergeant with over 20 years of experience - a lot of what I say here about the military comes from conversations with him. There is way too much brass, any idiot with a diploma (it doesn't take much these days) can get in a position of authority, most have no practical combat experience or training beyond basic and only care about their careers, not what's best for the troops or the country (from what he tells me).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882299 - 07/12/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

oh, I believe you, I just know that many harp when their loved ones don't come back at their scheduled time (and I can understand) not knowing that they signed up for 8 years.  I'm sure your brother knows more than I do about the "goings on" above so I wouldn't challenge his knowledge.

But what I will challenge is this: What is a "SF Master Sergeant"?  I've heard of a (SFC) Sergeant First Class and a Master Sergeant but not a SF Master Sergeant. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882310 - 07/12/04 01:27 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

SF=Special Forces, aka: Green Beret.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882324 - 07/12/04 01:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, ha...now that makes sense. :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882432 - 07/12/04 01:56 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
SF=Special Forces, aka: Green Beret.



Don't want to throw this thread off topic moreso than it is already. Would like to know though, if you've spoken to him about it and he was allowed to give you such an answer, did/does your brother think that sending in a SF squad to take out Saddam and his sons as opposed to our lovely little war would have been relatively easy and/or beneficial?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2882566 - 07/12/04 02:24 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I haven't asked him, but it's my understanding that there is an agreement from the UN which the U.S. now abides by that countries will not assassinate leaders of other countries. So the deal is to send in a bunch of grunts to kill other grunts and inflict collateral damage upon non-combatants so we won't be so barbaric as to kill one individual at the top. Pretty fucked up, huh?

BTW, my brother has seen the military pork for the benefit well connected corporations first hand - total rebuilding of facilities for millions of dollars, when all they needed was a little paint or soap and water and military brass retiring and coming back a few months later as hired hands for the same corporations. He has also expressed the opinion that the Iraq war and occupation is not about freeing the Iraqi people or fulfilling UN resolutions for Saddam's disarmament - he's not that naive. He's also voting for Michael Badnarik.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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