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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2882094 - 07/12/04 12:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Insensitive of who? Swami didn't send the poor bastards to die for him and his corporate buddies did he?




Nobody sent those soldiers to die,,,they all signed up voluntarily of thier own free will.... :thumbdown:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2882152 - 07/12/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Nobody sent those soldiers to die,,,they all signed up voluntarily of thier own free will.... :thumbdown:



Actually, that is not entirely true.  Yes, they did sign up, but there are many who should already be out by the terms of their contracts.  The U.S. government has issued stop loss orders to prevent soldiers who were eligible to leave or retire from leaving, in effect this is drafting the soldiers beyond the terms of their commitments and the contracts that the government had with them.  This is not voluntary and is in fact involuntary servitude.  Remember, the constitution is void where prohibited by law.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882172 - 07/12/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong but the common soldier makes an 8 year obligation when they sign up. If a soldier signs up for 8 years they sign up for 4 active duty and 4 In-active duty. The army can call you anytime they feel within that 8 year period.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882190 - 07/12/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Are these stop loss orders a new thing? If investigated thouroughly would not a person signing up for the military be aware of such a possiblility? Im not sure how it works exactly, but if it was alwqays a possiblility they can hardly complain.....after all most sign up so they can get cheap schooling or other 'incentives',,,,if they don't read between the lines and a situation comes up and they need to serve, thats a consequence to thier decision to serve.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882208 - 07/12/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

These are past the full commitment, that's why I brought them up. The stop loss orders started* during the Klinton adminstration because too many experienced soldiers did not want to re-enlist in a military that had become exceedingly top heavy, a testing ground for all the PC bullshit that the dumbocraps want to force on everyone and involved in nation building and police work in fucked up countries (NOT a soldiers job).

* edit - I should have said the most recent round of stop loss orders started during Klinton, prior to that they were used during the buildup for the first gulf war.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/12/04 01:04 PM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882233 - 07/12/04 01:05 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The stop loss orders started during the Klinton adminstration because too many experienced soldiers did not want to re-enlist in a military that had become exceedingly top heavy,




The military was offering early "outs" at the end of my enlistments to "every" soldier (atleast those near me). The number one reason many got out was that Klinton was president and they didn't want to fight for him. As far as being top heavy, I was just a sgt so i wouldn't know.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882262 - 07/12/04 01:14 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

By brother is a reservist SF Master Sergeant with over 20 years of experience - a lot of what I say here about the military comes from conversations with him. There is way too much brass, any idiot with a diploma (it doesn't take much these days) can get in a position of authority, most have no practical combat experience or training beyond basic and only care about their careers, not what's best for the troops or the country (from what he tells me).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882299 - 07/12/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

oh, I believe you, I just know that many harp when their loved ones don't come back at their scheduled time (and I can understand) not knowing that they signed up for 8 years.  I'm sure your brother knows more than I do about the "goings on" above so I wouldn't challenge his knowledge.

But what I will challenge is this: What is a "SF Master Sergeant"?  I've heard of a (SFC) Sergeant First Class and a Master Sergeant but not a SF Master Sergeant. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2882310 - 07/12/04 01:27 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

SF=Special Forces, aka: Green Beret.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882324 - 07/12/04 01:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, ha...now that makes sense. :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Evolving]
    #2882432 - 07/12/04 01:56 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
SF=Special Forces, aka: Green Beret.



Don't want to throw this thread off topic moreso than it is already. Would like to know though, if you've spoken to him about it and he was allowed to give you such an answer, did/does your brother think that sending in a SF squad to take out Saddam and his sons as opposed to our lovely little war would have been relatively easy and/or beneficial?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2882566 - 07/12/04 02:24 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I haven't asked him, but it's my understanding that there is an agreement from the UN which the U.S. now abides by that countries will not assassinate leaders of other countries. So the deal is to send in a bunch of grunts to kill other grunts and inflict collateral damage upon non-combatants so we won't be so barbaric as to kill one individual at the top. Pretty fucked up, huh?

BTW, my brother has seen the military pork for the benefit well connected corporations first hand - total rebuilding of facilities for millions of dollars, when all they needed was a little paint or soap and water and military brass retiring and coming back a few months later as hired hands for the same corporations. He has also expressed the opinion that the Iraq war and occupation is not about freeing the Iraqi people or fulfilling UN resolutions for Saddam's disarmament - he's not that naive. He's also voting for Michael Badnarik.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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