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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2876398 - 07/10/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
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Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 842
Loc: OR
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Swami]
    #2876454 - 07/10/04 05:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?




Because our liberal media has so ingrained it in the heads of Americans as a fucking excuse for this unjust and illegal war that even otherwise intelligent and thinking human beings use it as a self-rationalization, which is complete and utter bullshit, and we as human beings are beneath it.

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever - and to use bullshit arguments to justify the number of dead people to yourself or to other people make us all less than what we truly are. You should be ashamed of yourself, cuz I damn sure am ashamed for you. (not you, Swami...)


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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InvisiblepB0t
I'm a teapot
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 2,556
Re: Put it in perspective *DELETED* [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2876488 - 07/10/04 05:57 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2876816 - 07/10/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston: Because our liberal media...

If you want better news, quit watching Fox or CNN and switch to the BBC. Though I'm still baffled as to why the British Parliament haven't called for a vote of confidence in Mr. Blair.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: pB0t]
    #2876921 - 07/10/04 10:31 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There were more losses in the first 12 months in Iraq than there were in the first 12 months in Vietnam. I'm not saying that Iraq is going to turn out the same, just that linearly extrapolating the death rate is meaningless.

Don't attempt to use logic and facts when someone is on an emotional bent. When in this mindstate, irrationality is king.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2877021 - 07/10/04 11:27 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Did we invade a nation for their tomatoes that I am unaware of?





Yes, the American revoilution was about tomatoes in much the same way that the gulf war is about oil.


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This space for rent

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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2877132 - 07/11/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

So you're saying that the revolutionary war was about tomatoes, then? Man, you learn something new on these boards every day, dontcha?


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2877153 - 07/11/04 12:20 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

We invaded ourselves?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Swami]
    #2877321 - 07/11/04 02:25 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The 3000 we lost on 9-11 we all tragedies.

(...we all tragedies?)

Why would you bring that up? Why not bring up the deaths at Custer's Last Stand, The Alamo, Bunker Hill or The Maine?




Sorry for the typo. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I think that 9-11 is related to the war on terror, which includes nations that habour terrorists. That is my opinion, and that is why I think it is relevant. I guess my mistake was assuming that you had heard of the war on terror.


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Tastes just like chicken

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Sclorch]
    #2877366 - 07/11/04 03:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

If you want better news, quit watching Fox or CNN and switch to the BBC.

Apparantly the BBC broadcast fewer criticisms of the WMD bullshit in the runup to the war than the american channels.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877387 - 07/11/04 03:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever - and to use bullshit arguments to justify the number of dead people to yourself or to other people make us all less than what we truly are. You should be ashamed of yourself, cuz I damn sure am ashamed for you. (not you, Swami...)




I wish nobody ever had to die. I wish that everybody thought like you, but the fact is that everybody doesn't. We are at war. Your views are simplistic and child like. Under your philosophy, we couldn't even take out Hitler. Don't be ashamed for me, try to embrace the contradictions of your own naivete.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: pB0t]
    #2877394 - 07/11/04 03:57 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pB0t said:
Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Only 800 deaths is right. We lost almost 60,000 kids in Vietnam. We could fight for another 5 decades in this "horrible quagmire" or Iraq, and we wouldn't begin to equal the losses of Vietnam. This war is going well.




There were more losses in the first 12 months in Iraq than there were in the first 12 months in Vietnam. I'm not saying that Iraq is going to turn out the same, just that linearly extrapolating the death rate is meaningless.




I am expliciting saying that Iraq will not turn out the same as Vietnam. We will not have the deaths that some people have predicted. We have lost 800 thus far, we have a long way to go to 60,000. I don't expect us to get to 10,000, though I did at the begining of the war.

When nations decide to go to war, people will die. I don't like that. Nobody should like people dying. But since people do die, maybe we should have a reasonable estimate of what is a good figure. I think that only 800 deaths to this point is well beyond resonable expectations. This war has been fought well, and it is a credit to our troops and the commanders on the ground.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2877421 - 07/11/04 04:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

A war is going well if it doesn't match Vietnam death toll numbers? Makes sense.

I like how you tied the Iraq war with the 3000 lives lost on 911, Geoerge.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Re: *Ding! Ding!* We have a winner! [Re: Swami]
    #2877512 - 07/11/04 07:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, the honkies invaded the Americas in the late 15th century.

Read a book!


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This space for rent

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877528 - 07/11/04 08:03 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston writes:

There are NO acceptable casualties in the name of war. None. Not here, not now, and not ever -

Ah. I've been reading your posts with some interest since you first started contributing to this forum. Some of them puzzled me, but now it all makes sense. I hadn't realized until now that you were a Pacifist.

Of course a Pacifist would object to deposing Hussein by force. Although I don't agree with the philosophy behind the Pacifist position, I do understand that it is a genuine philosophical/religious belief held sincerely by many.

pinky

P.S. -- what's with the quote from a former Enron advisor doing in your signature line?


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Phred]
    #2877779 - 07/11/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

You know, I've thought about my statement and I don't think I agree with myself. There certainly are wars that are just and needed to be fought - the US entering WWII comes to mind. Casualties, while unpleasant, can be thought to contribute to the greater good and thus become relevant, if not entirely acceptable.

I think what I meant to say in an admittedly impassioned statement was something more along the lines that I believe this war, much like Vietnam, is an unjust war; an occupation serving the interests of the few with little regard to the good of the many. The casualties of this war could have been avoided, and therefore are entirely unacceptable.

As to whethere I'm a pacifist... I'm not. I'd have been happy if an Army Ranger team had been able to put a bullet through his frontal lobe prior to this conflict. He was a bad man, and the people of Iraq deserve better. Not only would I be willing to maim or kill someone who threatened the life of myself or my wife, I have gone out of my way to get trained to do so if necessary. Idealist, perhaps. Pacifist - I honestly don't think so.

Quote:

P.S. -- what's with the quote from a former Enron advisor doing in your signature line?



I found it quite relevant.

Of course I could ask:
"What is the former chief lobbyist for Chevron doing running our national security?"
"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"
I could go on...

But honestly, Pinky - thanks for the honest dissemination. I don't usually agree with you, but I have respect for your opinions. While in the end I don't agree with your pacifist notation, you at least got me to think more honestly about my own opinions on the matter.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2877973 - 07/11/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

GernBlanston asks --

"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"

Two points on this one:

1) Despite what Michael Moore says, Karzai was never an advisor for Unocal. This urban legend has been repeated so often by the Liberal media that it has come to be accepted as fact, but it is not. This is easily verifiable.

2) The Loya Jirga (Jurga?) has confirmed Karzai as interim president.

pinky


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
Inquiring Mind
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 418
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: Phred]
    #2878197 - 07/11/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


"What is a former Unocal advisor doing as the US appointed head of Afghanistan?"

Two points on this one:

1) Despite what Michael Moore says, Karzai was never an advisor for Unocal. This urban legend has been repeated so often by the Liberal media that it has come to be accepted as fact, but it is not. This is easily verifiable.





I call shenanigans on this one. It is a well known  fact that Hamid Karzai  was a former advisor to UNOCAL. It's been documented  many different times from  many different sources. I'd like to see your sources showing that Karzai being an advisor to UNOCAL is an "urban legend" propogated by the "liberal media". :rolleyes:

Quote:


2) The Loya Jirga (Jurga?) has confirmed Karzai as interim president.

pinky




That doesn't mean that he (or the Loya Jirga) are running the country. Much like the "transfer of sovereignty" back to Iraq, Karzai's confirmation as president served as nothing more than a puppet show.


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Put it in perspective [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2878713 - 07/11/04 04:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin



actually, Babs has it right. If you don't encourage your children to read, there is nothing for them to question.

Score: Babs 1, George 0. well, let's give him a 1/2.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Put it in perspective [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2878829 - 07/11/04 04:42 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

SquattingMarmot writes:

I call shenanigans on this one. It is a well known fact that Hamid Karzai was a former advisor to UNOCAL.

So sorry, but that is incorrect. It is not a fact at all. One of the links you provided is in Dutch, and since I can't read Dutch I can't comment on it other than to say that I would be extremely surprised if they provided any source for the allegation. None of the other links you posted provided any sources either.

I'd like to see your sources showing that Karzai being an advisor to UNOCAL is an "urban legend" propogated by the "liberal media".

I've posted this before, but it's in the archives now. Here it is again. From http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/lane.htm --

*********************************************************
Jared Israel: You're right. It's not a direct quote. The only thing they're quoting are the words, "lead company." The other thing that is being asserted everywhere is that Hamid Karzai, the current head of the Afghan 'government' once worked for you.

Barry Lane: Yeah. Yeah, well that's probably one of the great urban legends. He never worked for us.

Jared Israel: He didn't work for somebody else who worked for you?

Barry Lane: No. No, not him. He was never a consultant, never an employee. We've exhaustively searched through all our records to try and find out where the hell that came from.

Jared Israel: Le Monde. Dec. 6th, 2001.

Barry Lane: Le Monde. Le Monde was the one who wrote it first and you know what's strange about it is I've asked reporters over and over again, go ask Mr. Karzai himself. And nobody has.

Jared Israel: Well the argument is that there is something sinister and therefore you would both deny it anyway. But my argument is in order to posit that this relationship existed in the first place you have to have some evidence - something - but all le Monde has is their own assertion. They just say he was a consultant. They say, "At one time." Not even a date. And no source. And then all these writers repeat this as if Le Monde's assertion is enough to counter your denial. I mean, you can't use the fact that somebody denies something to prove it's true.

Barry Lane: Hey, it makes a great story. But I gotta tell you, our CEO was asked this kind of question about the project at the annual meeting, in May, and he was absolutely emphatic that we have no interest, no plans. I'm not sure what part of that is confusing for people.

*****************************************

As I found out when I was researching this for my post in the archives, the entire "Karzai was a Unocal employee/consultant" mantra rests solely on a single unsubstantiated article in a Lefty French rag. From http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm --

The origin of the claim appears to be a December 6, 2001 story in the leftist French newspaper Le Monde. The story does not cite any source for its claim. (The story is available on-line from Le Monde's website; registration and payment are required.) The actual sentence was "Apr?s Kaboul et l'Inde ou il a ?tudi? le droit, il a parfait sa formation aux Etats-Unis ou il fut un moment consultant de l'enterprise p?troli?re am?ricaine Unocal, quand celle-ci ?tudiant la construction d'un ol?duc en Afghanistan." Translated: After Kabul and India where he had studied law, he completed his training in the United States where he was briefly (literally: "for a moment") a consultant for the American petroleum business Unocal, when it was studying the construction of a pipeline in Afghanistan." Neither Le Monde nor Moore has provided any evidence to substantiate the claim about Unocal and Karzai.

*************************************

That doesn't mean that he (or the Loya Jirga) are running the country.

It may be claimed that no one is running the country as a whole, yes. Apparently there are parts of Afghanistan where the de facto "governing power" is the local warlord. But Karzai is the head cheese, and he's the head cheese because the Loya Jirga endorsed him. There is no counterpart to Bremer in Afghanistan. Hell, there were never more than 5,000 American troops there. Surely no one who thinks about it for very long will try to claim that the US is running the show there the way they were in Iraq until recently.

pinky


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