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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28694072 - 03/10/24 03:32 PM (3 months, 15 days ago)

I was just yelling.

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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28709527 - 03/23/24 03:15 AM (3 months, 2 days ago)

Following this post on nen, I came across an essay written in a course on Martin Heidegger taught by Dr. Charles Taylor at Wright State University in the winter of 1996.

Quote:

Thinking and Nen-Action
by Mark L. Dotson


This week, while going back over some of Heidegger's ideas on thinking, it suddenly occurred to me how similar these sound to some notions I studied last year in a course on Zen Buddhism. In the course, we explored the teachings of a Zen scholar by the name of Katsuki Sekida. Sekida is a lay teacher of Zen who has been associated with Diamond Sangha in Hawaii. In his book, Zen Training, Sekida's focus is on thought-impulses, or, as they are called in Japanese, "nen."
According to Sekida, the mind operates in a particular way. The way the mind operates is "only one nen at a time." You cannot really do two things at once because you cannot be conscious of two things at once.

Nen actions make their appearance before we are aware of them. A thought impulse occurs without our being aware of it. If you are going to become aware of a nen action, it takes a separate nen action to become aware of the first nen action.
First-nen occurs, for example, when one has an experience of a beautiful sunset. Before the awareness of "just how beautiful it is" dawns on you, you are momentarily held spellbound in the grasp of the experience. Then, immediately, there follows second-nen, which reflects on first-nen. According to Sekida, The first and second nen come and go momentarily, and when a serial process of thought is occurring the second nen will frequently arise to illuminate the preceding nen, and the two will intermix as if they were entangled with each other (Sekida 109).

In second nen, one is aware of first nen. Second nen allows us to analyze and evaluate first nen. Although we can think of these as being two separate operations, they appear to us as being intertwined, as Sekida points out. Third-nen is thinking on the thought of "how beautiful the sunset is." Third-nen bonds with first and second nen to give the illusion of the continuity of the ego. Being deluded, we believe that the ego is some sort of permanent entity. In Buddhism, any kind of permanent sub-strata is rejected as being illusory. There are only discrete nen-actions.

Through zazen, or meditation, an experience known as one-eon nen can occur. One-eon nen is where second nen never emerge. The experience consists of first nen impulses, one right after another. A good example of this can be seen in a story about Ryokan, a famous Japanese Zen Master. Bosai, an eminent scholar, had gone to visit Ryokan to discuss poetry, philosophy, and literature. Ryokan suggested they have some sake'. He told Bosai that he would have to go borrow some at a farmhouse not far away. After waiting and waiting for Ryokan to return, Bosai set out to look for him. After searching for awhile, He found him sitting under a tree, gazing at the moon. Ryokan had been engaged in one-eon nen while experiencing the sight of the beautiful moon; the first-nen impulse was repeating itself over and over (Stevens 133).



:jumpingfrog:

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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28712894 - 03/25/24 02:46 AM (3 months, 20 hours ago)

The nenny like the whiffle hen of Popeye's good fortune. - I was not familiar with the Zen terms by Sekida but enjoyed them, and Tozan's ranks in the last chapter.

Nenny Hen - a lot of his terms overlap. Sho, Mu, the 'absolute samadhi', and Hen, or U, to the positive samadhi 'externalized.'
The ranks are considered post-enlightenment maturation, so often I would consider it above my grade, but Sho, Hen, and their integrations I found in his dialog could be applied to wherever I thought I was related, inner and outer.

I don't mean to be telling these to those more familiar, but processing it some.

Sho is described very much like that familiar, the void, eyes-closed, dark, 'no-thought' samadhi, mahamudra, black essence - this he calls absolute samadhi. Hen, called positive samadhi, is in externalized, waking life.

The ranks talk about their integrations, and before that or somewhere, about the difficulties of integration. One thing that was helpful is that the way they mature together is for one to go in and out of them over and over, which is describing life cycles. If having one, say Sho, cultivate and - one of my takeaways, or bring-alongs - if you can't find Hen, be in Sho and carry it out. Something along that. It is the principle of gateways of liberation, having one, the rest will follow.

The way he describes Hen I like, from animals, 'grazing samadhi' etc. The nen hen remained in grazing samadhi, thinking not much of it. :smile:

But I'm considering one could not have Sho without some corresponding Hen perhaps, those times of eye-open profundity. And the Nen description is helpful. She's quick, the nen hen.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28715443 - 03/26/24 08:05 PM (2 months, 30 days ago)

I wonder what is designated the visionary aspects in the Zen.? I don't think simple dismissal to the illusory would be without contradictions, eg, all phenomena a lotus flower and a buddha within. Light anyway is what I mean.

I've thought though it is within, it's a form of Hen.

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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28790795 - 05/28/24 02:27 AM (29 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I wonder what is designated the visionary aspects in the Zen.? I don't think simple dismissal to the illusory would be without contradictions, eg, all phenomena a lotus flower and a buddha within. Light anyway is what I mean.

I've thought though it is within, it's a form of Hen.



In the book of Katsuki Sekida there are several references to visions, however the following should be more insightful and clear with regards to the visionary aspects in the Zen.

Quote:

Bodhidharma;
"Even one who has initially awakened the Mind may still not be tranquil and might see supernatural visions in a dream. Even so, he should not chase them or lack confidence in the path. He should realize that everything was made significant by a mind which is not outside. At that time, when the remaining habitual karmic patterns and potentials have faded away, and the self-nature is fully disclosed, you may see a light brighter than sunshine coming toward you. If you have this kind of experience, it will play in important part in developing awakening."



:jumpingfrog:

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28791139 - 05/28/24 11:33 AM (29 days, 12 hours ago)

Got some that light play recently. Btw I'm reading Valmiki's Vasistha Sara you quoted which I don't think I've seen, but it looks like the shortest Yoga Vasistha version ever which is cool.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28791147 - 05/28/24 11:41 AM (29 days, 11 hours ago)

quoting from chapter 5, THE DESTRTRTRTRTRUCTION OF LUCTION OF LUCTION OF LUCTION OF LUCTION OF L AAAAATENTTENTTENTTENTTENT
IMPRESSIONSIMPRESSIONSIMPRESSIONSIMPRESSIONSIMPRESSIO

that's what copies from the pdf :lol:

Quote:

2. Just as the wind does not affect the creepers in
a picture, so also afflictions do not affect one whose
understanding is fortified by firmness and (always) reflected
in the mirror of enquiry.

3. The knowers of truth declare that enquiry into
the truth of the Self is knowledge. What is to be known
is contained in it like sweetness in milk.

4. To one who has realized the Self by enquiry
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are objects of compassion.



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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28791229 - 05/28/24 01:13 PM (29 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

7. By the abandonment of latent impressions or
by the control of breathing, mind ceases to be the mind.
Practise whichever you like.



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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28791329 - 05/28/24 03:00 PM (29 days, 8 hours ago)

Some gems in it. This may cover the whole of Valmiki's Sara - in other versions, the original is so large that different things are found among them, or are said differently, while some are excluded.

Edited by syncro (05/29/24 03:50 AM)

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28803758 - 06/07/24 10:50 AM (19 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

The source of the countless sublime practices all come from this one Mind. All of the precepts and ethical guidelines, the practice of meditation, the gate of primordial wisdom and all its miraculous manifestations are all your natural possession, not separate from your mind.



My dogs 'r barkin!

:inbread: This is known as tratak, gaze technique. If do right, no can defense.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28806002 - 06/08/24 11:48 PM (17 days, 23 hours ago)

Jeez spinvis, hitting it with these.

I disagree with this when I read it, but it's so exquisite. Slash it with the sword!

Yet "I'm in love with the gamester, the magician who makes it go", when the life force is beautified in the form(less).

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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro]
    #28808700 - 06/11/24 03:10 AM (15 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Quote:

The source of the countless sublime practices all come from this one Mind. All of the precepts and ethical guidelines, the practice of meditation, the gate of primordial wisdom and all its miraculous manifestations are all your natural possession, not separate from your mind.



My dogs 'r barkin!

:inbread: This is known as tratak, gaze technique. If do right, no can defense.



Coincidentally, Asangoham recently released a video on Tratak, interesting watch!


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro]
    #28808703 - 06/11/24 03:15 AM (15 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Jeez spinvis, hitting it with these.

I disagree with this when I read it, but it's so exquisite. Slash it with the sword!

Yet "I'm in love with the gamester, the magician who makes it go", when the life force is beautified in the form(less).



Haha that one is so direct in your face, yet crude at the same time, while being beautifully poetic! I love it!

:loveheart:

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28808726 - 06/11/24 03:57 AM (15 days, 19 hours ago)

Good video! Speaking of tratak and concentration, I couldn't help noticing that the chanting in the background at first is Hanuman Chalisa, though it had directly nothing to do with the content. So I was caught trying to hear the chanting and the teaching.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28818794 - 06/19/24 11:06 AM (7 days, 12 hours ago)

Is the contrivance of eloquently spoken words supposed to be better than contrivance of creative vibrational energies that serve to unite? The words point and say no vehicle. The vehicle of practice, which is superior to (its own) instruction, is also no vehicle at the root.

"No abiding in existence or quiescence, just freedom in a sky-like sphere."

There seems always to be self-contradiction in words of no practice as there is contradiction in practice, form with no form. It's all contrivance. The one who calls those fools who practice is also a fool for saying it.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28819166 - 06/19/24 04:45 PM (7 days, 6 hours ago)

I know spinvis you post a balance of views on practice, no practice, devotion,... but some of the people you quote are savage. Though you do treat most any approach, the majority is probably no practice imv, so I might have a playful thought, ok, spinvis is a practice bully.

Funny thing is that I came across the worst in sources on my side, in Asthavakra. This week I'm having a lousy day with blood sugar, and I wander into the second half of the Ashtavakra Gita, and I was all put out, ass kicked, and was saying stuff like, you are not a compassionate teacher, … :lol:

We made up though – the next day I believe I got loving presence from him, blissful good company, certain compassion. Btw it's interesting because early on years ago, I had a vision that seemed like a memory, of a younger Indian boy whose body was deformed, but so profound in his gaze and transmission that felt could be life-changing. I never ventured who it was but for now with Ashtavakra. :shrug: Perhaps I heard mention of him in years past and therefore the vision.

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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28820224 - 06/20/24 02:42 PM (6 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Is the contrivance of eloquently spoken words supposed to be better than contrivance of creative vibrational energies that serve to unite? The words point and say no vehicle. The vehicle of practice, which is superior to (its own) instruction, is also no vehicle at the root.

"No abiding in existence or quiescence, just freedom in a sky-like sphere."

There seems always to be self-contradiction in words of no practice as there is contradiction in practice, form with no form. It's all contrivance. The one who calls those fools who practice is also a fool for saying it.





First of all, awesome track! Love it! Thank you!
:loveheart:

There's no contradiction viewing this from the absolute. What Longchenpa (in this case) is pointing towards, is that ultimately there's no "I" doing anything, or doing nothing for that matter. If there is an "I" present at all with for example practicing, it's the conditioned ego fetter attached to, trying to do, reach, attain or contrive something. Forget yourself, and put the "I" to rest. Drop off mind and body as they say in Zen: 'the mind is no longer bound by thoughts, emotions, and perceptions, and the body is no longer controlled by the ego’s desires and attachments. The individual becomes fully present, open, and receptive, allowing themselves to be fully engaged with the world around them'.

Chop of your own head (symbolically speaking). The conditioned ego obviously doesn't like this idea and experience, so it will struggle and fight for it's survival. This in turn brings us to the next post.

Quote:

syncro said:
I know spinvis you post a balance of views on practice, no practice, devotion,... but some of the people you quote are savage. Though you do treat most any approach, the majority is probably no practice imv, so I might have a playful thought, ok, spinvis is a practice bully.

Funny thing is that I came across the worst in sources on my side, in Asthavakra. This week I'm having a lousy day with blood sugar, and I wander into the second half of the Ashtavakra Gita, and I was all put out, ass kicked, and was saying stuff like, you are not a compassionate teacher, … :lol:

We made up though – the next day I believe I got loving presence from him, blissful good company, certain compassion. Btw it's interesting because early on years ago, I had a vision that seemed like a memory, of a younger Indian boy whose body was deformed, but so profound in his gaze and transmission that felt could be life-changing. I never ventured who it was but for now with Ashtavakra. :shrug: Perhaps I heard mention of him in years past and therefore the vision.




Yes, some are very purposely savage because the conditioned ego can also be as savage, or even more so for the suffering person, and very though to get rid of. There's this great piece I read, can't find it atm, if I'm not mistaken it's originally from a Tibetan Buddhist, who said that, and I'm paraphrasing: 'compassion is potentially one of the biggest fetters for a person to overcome'. This is especially true in the example of an individual with a savage ego, and the believe he needs to have compassion towards all, including that in what ultimately doesn't have any basis in existence, and is illusory.

Anyway, last, to come back to practices, methods, techniques, etc these in turn are a form of conditioning, so it's better to be completely unconditioned from the start (according to some teachings), and not having to dive into that at all, only having to unlearn it again later. Reason I'm bringing this up is that there's still actually a interesting debate going on over this point exactly. Because for example both Garab Dorje and Longchenpa are very explicit in their instructions of that there's nothing at all needed, except direct pointing towards the mind (very Zen like approach). And big institutes, who make their living with teaching practices, methods, and techniques aren't particularly fond of such statements. 

This doesn't mean it's a bad or wrong thing to learn and do all that, since according to the defenders of these practices, this teaches for example humility (a virtue), which is good for various reasons. However it can give rise to obscurity/elitism in turn, and can make it harder in the end. And it is also well known and said that practice makes us more prone to accidents, so the more practice we do, the more chances there will be to experience this absolute insight ourselves. So 50/50..
That some teachers rather have followers instead, is proven again and again with all the indulging of guru worship.

Yeshe Donden (Roger Calverley); Garab Dorje - The Gospel of Garab Dorje: The Highest, Secret Teachings of Tibetan Buddhism - INTRODUCTION;
Quote:

Time and again, we read that in Garab Dorje’s Ati Yoga, active striving is rejected. We read also that visualization is not a suitable practice for students of these highest teachings, because sustained recognition of consciousness itself is the meditation and the view of the yoga. Trekcho (abiding in recognition of bare awareness) is the principal practice. Nothing could be more simple and stark.
However, although reliance upon mantras, mandalas, ceremonies and rituals is quite absent in Garab Dorje’s original Ati Yoga tantras, all of these came to be considered prerequisites by the Nyingma yogis of Tibet. Typically, Dzoghen would not be taught to anyone who had failed to complete hundreds of thousands of prayers, mantras, mandala offerings and rounds of guru yoga. This method of making Dzogchen an add-on to Vajrayana was probably starting to develop even in Vairochana’s lifetime, toward the end of the eighth century, and it has some sound precedent in the way Sri Simha taught Vairochana himself, passing on the Mahayana teachings by day, and the Ati Yoga teachings secretly by night.
Some of the Longde (Space Section) and many or most of the Upadesha (Whispered Instruction) tantras show this importation of tantric views and practices into the original Semde teachings (which I refer to as the pure, original source texts of Ati Yoga). This results in a strange situation where things rejected in the Semde texts are recommended in Upadesha texts, and both kinds of texts are thought of as Dzogchen Source Tantras. The Dzogchen that came down to Longchenpa, and that comes to us from Tibet is actually a hybrid of Semde and Vajrayana. The pure, original Ati Yoga of Garab Dorje is very clear on ten points, which constitute the essence of the path:

1. There is no view on which one has to meditate.
2, There is no commitment, or samaya, one has to keep.
3. There is no capacity for spiritual action one has to seek.
4. There is no mandala one has to create.
5. There is no initiation one has to receive.
6. There is no path one has to tread.
7. There are no levels of realization (bhumis) one has to achieve through purification.
8. There is no conduct one has to adopt, or abandon.
9. From the beginning, self-arising Wisdom has been free of obstacles.
10. Self-perfection is beyond hope and fear.

Most of these points are antithetical to Vajrayana as found in the eight yanas of the Nyingmas. And yet these are still taught as unavoidable preliminary practices that must precede any introduction to the nature of mind or Dzogchen.
The Dzogchen which Tibetan lamas brought to Europe and North America in the twentieth century is therefore not the pure, original teachings of Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Sri Simha and Vairochana. Tibetan Dzogchen is by and large drawn from lineages which amalgamated Ati Yoga into active Vajrayana-Tantra practices and made hundreds of thousands of mantras, mandala offerings, prayers and prostrations into required preliminaries. Rarely will a student be introduced to Dzogchen by a Tibetan lama unless that student has spent years doing these active practices. This is the opposite of what Garab Dorje taught, as the Semde source texts make clear.

... In Ati Yoga, it is not merely a concentrated mind, but rather a completely thought-free mind, effortlessly sustained, which is the basis of non-dual contemplation.
Repeatedly, Garab Dorje makes it clear that, for one who is qualified to begin Ati Yoga, there is no need to keep busy making merit or to go on chanting mantras or building up mental imagery of a deity. In fact, Garab Dorje clearly states that content of any kind which might arise within the conceptual, dualistic mind, however fascinating, is irrelevant to the authentic view and praxis of Ati Yoga. The texts make clear that an instantaneous recognition of the nature of mind rather than gradual transformation of the adhara (body/mind) is the essence of the yoga. This key point is conveyed with uncompromising clarity in the source tantras.




Germano, David F. (Winter 1994). "Architecture and Absence in the Secret Tantric History of rDzogs Chen". The Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies. 17 (2): 203–335;
Quote:

Longchenpa defended the validity of Dzogchen as a stand-alone system of formless and effortless perfection stage practice, which did not require preliminary practice of the generation stage of deity yoga (unlike other tantric systems) nor standard tantric initiation rituals. Instead, for Longchenpa, the practice of Dzogchen merely relies on a pointing out (sems khrid) of the mind's nature in an encounter with a teacher.




This turned out much longer than originally intended :tongue:

:namaste:

Edited by spinvis (06/21/24 03:38 AM)

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28821033 - 06/21/24 04:25 AM (5 days, 19 hours ago)

I enjoyed so much Longchempa's words on space and such before. Too bad it has to get into discounting the vehicles of others, vehicles that are known to be identical with that space.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28821052 - 06/21/24 04:53 AM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

Here we are, mantra and other practitioners, sitting with the sphere of space in our hand, saying um...

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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro]
    #28821072 - 06/21/24 05:20 AM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I enjoyed so much Longchempa's words on space and such before. Too bad it has to get into discounting the vehicles of others, vehicles that are known to be identical with that space.



If you ever have the chance, read his Seven Treasuries, it explains and substantiates on why other vehicles are viewed as 'lesser' and why the Dzogchen vehicle is 'superior'. It probably needed to be defended against similar attacks from others.

It does go pretty hardcore elitist in some chapters on potential students, who is eligible and who's not, who's to be excluded. Different times, environment, and cultures.

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