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 trendal
J♠
 
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Something we've learned in the past 50 years (since the discovery of DNA) is that the DNA molecule and its sequencing is only the very begining of the story. The genes in DNA "encode" proteins into very specific structures...and it is these proteins which are actually responsible for all cellular action - the DNA itself does nothing other than encode proteins for use. We succeeded several years ago in mapping the entire human DNA sequence but have only just begun to map out the protein system.
If you would like to help with this protein research (which will become MUCH more important than genetics over the next decade) you should join the Shroomery's folding@home team!!!
You can download a screensaver which will use your computer during the time you aren't using it to study protein folding. Proteins are long strings of amino acids, which "fold" themselves into very specific structures. It is the PRECISE configuration of these structures which determines how the protein "works". Almost all (or perhaps all) hereditary diseases are the result of improper protein folding...often having desasterous effects on the body. Once we determine the possibilities for folded proteins we will be very close to cures for so many of the diseases we suffer from! SO PLEASE JOIN THE FOLDING@HOME TEAM AND HELP US LEARN MORE ABOUT OUR MOST BASIC BUILDING BLOCKS!!!
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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toad857
President of theUnited States
Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 283
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 Re: DNA  [Re: trendal]
#2879621 - 07/11/04 09:22 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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deciphering all of the proteins that make up the human body is such a daunting task. it's some really, really tricky chemistry.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: DNA [Re: toad857]
#2879625 - 07/11/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's why we need you on the [Email]folding@home[/Email] team!!! 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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 Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: DNA [Re: trendal]
#2880053 - 07/11/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"it breaks for a very specific reason (virus, free-radical, energetic radiation, ect) but the exact location of the break as well as the result of the break are certainly "random" in effect "
According to my dictionary, Random means something that is unable to be predicted. Unfortunately my dictionary fails to mention the 4th dimension (time) in this.
Weather systems and climate phenomenon used to be labeled as completely "random" as well. I think you are losing faith in mankind's ability to figure shit out. Several hundred years from now if humans are still around here on Earth we will most likely be able to predict precisely where that DNA strand is going to break, and tell precisely what the result of that break will be....
But of course; that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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But of course; that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
And I'm going to have to say yes, you are wrong on this one strumpling 
Here's why: let's say an energetic particle (radiation) comes zooming across the galaxy and enters the Earth's atmosphere. From there it zooms down through my right arm and comes into contact with a strand of DNA in one my my cells there, causing the DNA strand to snap in half. Predicting when or where such an event will occur is physically impossible: the only way to know that the particle even existed (before it comes into contact with my DNA) would be to use some device to detect it beforehand...and the detection itself would capture the particle and remove any possibility of it coming into contact with my arm. If it isn't detected before it reaches that strand of DNA in my arm, there is no possible way to predict the exact location along the DNA strand where it makes contact (again, because we didn't even know the particle existed before it reaches my DNA).
Now: it is quite possible to take a look at a strand of DNA and determine where along it's length it is most susceptible to damage. From there we could determine the probability of a strand of DNA breaking at any given point, assuming it is attacked at that point by a damage-causing agent...but again it is impossible to know when/where an agent will come into contact with the DNA unless we physically cause the agent to come into contact with a specified point along the DNA strand.
Randomness is an underlying aspect of the way our Universe functions at its most basic levels.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: DNA [Re: trendal]
#2880568 - 07/12/04 01:10 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Predicting when or where such an event will occur is physically impossible"
As of now, yes. We've been doing things that were previously thought physically impossible for thousands of years.
All I'm saying is that its never possible to predict what kinds of things we're going to be able to predict in the future.
That being said, I'm comfortable in stating that neither of us have any idea if its really truely timelessly "random"
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: DNA [Re: trendal]
#2880593 - 07/12/04 01:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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We have to remember that we dont know exactly how evolution works. We have ideas... and thats science.
If we knew how DNA worked... really knew, we would be manipulating it a lot more than we have.
We know about certain things concerning how evolution and dna works, but we do not know all of it.
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What?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: DNA [Re: trendal]
#2880603 - 07/12/04 01:18 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah... with all those subatomic particles flying through everything everywhere from every direction at everytime, I imagine it would be impossible to figure it all out... well, very improbable... 
Perhaps certain particles emitted from the Sun have something to do with our evolution... I think the Hindus believe something along those lines... I was reading something once... don't really remember... *gives up*
Edit: I was thinking about it more. If these are basic proteins and such that are mutated by all of these different, subatomic particles that are flying around, isn't it possible that it could be certain particles being released from the Sun that would have sparked life on this planet? 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
Edited by fireworks_god (07/12/04 01:22 AM)
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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well i read a theory on the creation of DNA was that hydrogen molecules were fused together with the suns rays.
And what i was saying before... i should say that we would be utilizing it much more... effectively.
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What?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: DNA [Re: Zero7a1]
#2880626 - 07/12/04 01:24 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zero7a1 said:
If we knew how DNA worked... really knew, we would be manipulating it a lot more than we have.
I think what trendal was saying before is that the DNA is only encoding these proteins, and that the proteins are really the key to all of this, and those are still being studied... *shrugs and hopes for the best*
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Yeah... very much so.
Protiens are basically the "recipes" for tissues and processes in your body.
Encoding takes place as an assignment... to create and deliver the protiens... protien formations are carried out by cells. Cells are created by DNA. DNA more or less controls the cell. Each cell has its own task... as before.
To me personally.... that is a shitload of information for us to understand fully enough to utilize in a manner in which we could play with it how we wished... respectively.
To me that means until were there we dont really KNOW... but we do know some things...
For me im only saying this becaause i think a lot of people (and ive read reports of scientific experiments) that they assume too much about the role of dna and change within the being.
Without knowing really what were dealing with, i think its harmful to assume one too many things regarding how dna functions.
There is still a whole world of other concerns effecting DNA and evolutionary matters...
but trendal was right in the fact that certain matter effect our dna.
im just really hesitant to assume we know more than we do.
Besides... manipulating our DNA without too great a knowledge may completely fuck the whole evolution thing...
Finding where DNA and evolution fit together is still a tricky game imo 
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What?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: DNA [Re: Zero7a1]
#2880710 - 07/12/04 01:44 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hehe, ja... I myself am officially assuming I know nothing about DNA.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: DNA [Re: Zero7a1]
#2880718 - 07/12/04 01:46 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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"im just really hesitant to assume we know more than we do."
Me too. I'm also really hesitant to assume that because we currently think something is physically impossible, that it will never be possible.
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Strumpling, I can't agree with you on this one
Unless we are 100% wrong with our physics, especially quantum mechanics, I can see no possibility of ever predicting where damage will occur along a DNA strand with any sort of accuracy. Before you go ahead and say "well quantum mechanics COULD be wrong"...take a look at that computer you're using and think again.
Following along with my previous exampe of a cosmic-ray:
There is only one way to "know" that a particle exists in a certain location, and that is to "detect" it by interacting with the particle in some way. By interacting with the particle, you change it's momentum (and thus where it is headed). If you change it's momentum, it is no longer going to end up in the same place (the DNA in my arm) at all! This is a very fundamental part to our Universe, something we understand quite well.
If you DON'T detect the particle en route, you have no idea there is even a particle there...and hence can have no idea that a particle is about to come into contact with my DNA.
Some of our greatest minds have tried for nearly a century now to disprove the Uncertainty principle with absolutely no results whatsoever.
What you are proposing is like saying you can predict exactly where a star is in the sky...without even looking for it
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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toad857
President of theUnited States
Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 283
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Re: DNA [Re: ergot]
#2881842 - 07/12/04 11:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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i'm with ya on this one trendal..
we really *do* know quite a bit about evolutionary processes and DNA's function.
there are many reasons that we haven't been 'manipulating it a lot more'. for one, DNA was 'discovered' about 50 years ago. that's not a long time. we have only begun to unwrap the pieces. remember the human genome project w/ clinton? that was only a few years ago. we have made HUGE breakthroughs since then.
DNA manipulation is a bit tricky because of society's stance on it. they think biologists are 'playing god' and other things. ever hear about the stem cell controversy? if it weren't for the pending legislation and society's ignorant views on it, by now we may have been able to cure any genetic disease you can imagine. muscular distrophy--poof! alzheimers--poof! you get the picture.
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Viaggio
ChemicalConsumer
Registered: 07/05/03
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Last seen: 18 years, 25 days
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I enjoyed reading this thread. Modesty aside, I'm pretty well informed on DNA. Anyone here ever study miochondrial DNA, and the theories on the origin of mitochondria? Very interesting stuff. Actually, some researchers speculate that the m-DNA can (and does) influence the nucleic DNA (n-DNA). Because m-DNA is much less complex, genetic engineering via that route might be an easier task.
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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."
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toad857
President of theUnited States
Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 283
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Re: DNA [Re: Viaggio]
#2881934 - 07/12/04 11:38 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
viaggio said:
I enjoyed reading this thread. Modesty aside, I'm pretty well informed on DNA. Anyone here ever study miochondrial DNA, and the theories on the origin of mitochondria? Very interesting stuff. Actually, some researchers speculate that the m-DNA can (and does) influence the nucleic DNA (n-DNA). Because m-DNA is much less complex, genetic engineering via that route might be an easier task.
never heard of m-DNA engineering. i know that they're self-replicating so i guess they wouldnt appear as the obvious candidate.
yeah i think it's interesting where they came from. i think that is sorta how most life got a 'jump start' from single cellularity. CRAZZZY stuff! hard schooling though 
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: DNA [Re: toad857]
#2882191 - 07/12/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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That was exactly my point... Sure we have learned alot, but it isnt all
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: DNA [Re: Viaggio]
#2882227 - 07/12/04 01:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mitochondrial DNA is VERY interesting, yes! I have even heard some theories that mitochondria may have been an entirely separate organism at one time in the past! Eukaryotic cells could have "captured" the mitochondria organism into a symbiotic relationship: the eukaryotic cell provides mitochondria with glucose as food, and the mitochondria provides the eukaryotic cell with ATP as an energy source.
Also: mDNA is usually only passed on to offspring by the mother. I read once that because we all seem to have nearly the exact same mDNA we must all have "come from" a VERY small number of females way back down the line!
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: DNA [Re: trendal]
#2882264 - 07/12/04 01:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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> mDNA is usually only passed on to offspring by the mother. I read once that because we all seem to have nearly the exact same mDNA we must all have "come from" a VERY small number of females way back down the line!
There was a good journal article about two months ago discussing this. They have found that the father donates a lot more than just nuclear DNA to the creation of offspring. They identified both RNA and proteins getting transferred to the egg as well.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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