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InvisibleCh3f

Registered: 03/09/22
Posts: 20
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28668999 - 02/20/24 11:53 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

Transgender identity and public sentiment toward it is such a hugely complicated and relativistic topic that it borders on philosophy. Different people feel different ways for different reasons. Bigotry and fear/dislike of that which is different is a topic as old as time. Consider psychological/sociological ideas such as the in-group–out-group bias wherein for a number of possible reasons, we as humans inherently favor members of our own groups.

If you want an answer to why there is so much anti-trans sentiment NOW, honestly it's just backlash to the very recent, very fast, and very strong push for pro-trans sentiment and accommodation. This social movement has progressed almost entirely in the past two decades, and mostly in the past decade alone. That is a very fast rate of social change, and it's natural for people to push back against it. Couple this with the realities of cancel-culture, and the broader popular culture of conflating social conservatism with bigotry, and you have a recipe for division. People who have questions or disagreements and are generally trying to figure out how to feel have no 'safe' outlet for exploring the complex ideas they're grappling with. Most liberal, progressives, or otherwise 'pro-trans' people do not even pretend to understand the concepts completely, but simply know what they are supposed to think and do, and are happy enough to do that- in the name of understanding and equality. Some people though, absolutely hate the idea of being told what to think. When those people encounter the pro-trans thought movement, they're labeled as bigots as soon as they speak out. Even failure to affirm that you are in support of trans people is enough to earn the label of bigot and transphobe. Sharing your pronouns and asking others theirs is the most common way we do this 'affirmation'.

Finally, this division is capitalized on by right-wing media, social media algorithms, and legitimately hateful figureheads like politicians. Being already labeled as a bigot, the only path forward leads further into anti-trans sentiment. People who start with a mild, well-meaning if slightly ignorant point of view are pushed to the right, being judged and hated by the left essentially just for failing to tow the line on something they don't understand.

I've been on both sides of the aisle. When I was younger I argued with people for saying stupid shit about transgender identity. More recently I've experienced quite a cold shoulder for accidentally misgendering someone or for not volunteering my pronouns (spoiler: they're exactly what you would guess if you look at me). Hate begets hate. Hating hate and hating people whom you think are hateful, is hateful in itself. You cannot fight hate with more hate no matter how tempting or simple it seems. IMO the trans community really needs to lighten up and realize everybody who isn't on their page is not their enemy. Everyone else needs to let people think and say what they want. If you stop demonizing people for controversial opinions and start talking to them, those controversial opinions would gradually but quickly grow less extreme. Peace and love, brother/sister/folx. However you wanna say it.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,214
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 15 hours, 57 minutes
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f]
    #28669646 - 02/21/24 12:00 PM (4 months, 2 days ago)

The battle against gender extremism has nothing to do with hate or ignorance.  For example, Moms for Liberty is a parental rights organization that is fighting against the government's intrusion via propaganda in schools, and legislative changes that limit parental rights.

The gender extremists are putting massive amount of effort into changing curriculum in schools and changing legislation.  If you look at the list of thousands of new books being pushed into schools, and their content, it's a lot of ridiculous trash most sensible parents would never choose to expose their kids to.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f]
    #28670069 - 02/21/24 05:23 PM (4 months, 2 days ago)

The problem is the pressures that already exist that are placed upon children... They are oppressive measures of control. Sexuality is policed. The handlers want obedient, reproductive workers. Those who cannot or will not are mostly excluded from everything that involves community, except, of course, church. Children fixate on little things that they can use to psychologically cope with the unfair treatment by society. This is what they want to oppose. Most of the trans people are really utterly oppressed gay and lesbian or bisexual people. They have been abused so badly by society that they actually begin to feel that they do not belong in their own bodies, because they are objectified by objectifications of their desires and feelings. This is internalized so much, the very nature of their own body becomes in question. The problem is society. There are utterly deep problems, and book banning is completely and utterly absurd. Well educated people know the difference between a good and a bad book.

:allsodisappointed:


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleCh3f

Registered: 03/09/22
Posts: 20
Re: Transgender hate [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28670649 - 02/21/24 11:42 PM (4 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
The battle against gender extremism has nothing to do with hate or ignorance.  For example, Moms for Liberty is a parental rights organization that is fighting against the government's intrusion via propaganda in schools, and legislative changes that limit parental rights.

The gender extremists are putting massive amount of effort into changing curriculum in schools and changing legislation.  If you look at the list of thousands of new books being pushed into schools, and their content, it's a lot of ridiculous trash most sensible parents would never choose to expose their kids to.




It's far too broad a statement to say that anti-trans sentiment or "the battle against gender extremism" has nothing to do with hate or ignorance. Some people who believe the same things as you may very well be operating from a mindset clouded by hate and ignorance. But please notice that in my reply, I made a point to describe the predicament of someone who is not hateful, but may be pushed toward hate. That description is not meant to demean anyone, or presume anything. I feel it is accurate enough, but it is not meant to be 100% accurate and comprehensive. If you feel a part of it does not apply to you, then disregard that part. Also, ignorance is a word thrown around a lot as an insult, but essentially it's just a state of not-knowing something. You and I do not know what it's like to be trans, therefore our opinions on the matter are certainly clouded by a degree of ignorance. If you tell me your opinions are not hate- I believe you.

But your battle against gender extremism is taking place in a thought-space also occupied by legitimately hateful people whose intention is to use your reasonable concerns to generate hateful energy. So be careful about what someone tells you, and careful about what you think you know. And most of all, be careful about how you treat and regard the people on the other side of this 'battle'. I think debate might be a more apt descriptor though. 'Battle' is a strong word, invoking ideas of a life-and-death struggle against a mortal enemy. I truly believe that the trans community is honest in its desire to simply be accepted by and feel comfortable in their society. Their methods, like anyone's, may at times be misguided. They may be REALLY misguided, and you have a right to feel and voice concerns about that. That is indeed my point- you are not a bigot for believing what you do. Or any more hateful or ignorant than anyone, unless your actions or statements prove otherwise. Truly there is no need to defend your ideas from my judgement. The very point of my post was to humanize the positions you're taking, and caution against judging anyone for them.


Edited by Ch3f (02/22/24 02:50 AM)

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 3,032
Re: Transgender hate [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #28670713 - 02/22/24 01:06 AM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
The battle against gender extremism has nothing to do with hate or ignorance.  For example, Moms for Liberty is a parental rights organization that is fighting against the government's intrusion via propaganda in schools, and legislative changes that limit parental rights.

The gender extremists are putting massive amount of effort into changing curriculum in schools and changing legislation.  If you look at the list of thousands of new books being pushed into schools, and their content, it's a lot of ridiculous trash most sensible parents would never choose to expose their kids to.




Kids should be exposed to, in a measured way, an introduction to what the world offers. The truth is LGBT people exist. Organizations such as the one you mention would rather try to teach kids as if there is no such thing as LGBT people. They are, in fact, the propagandists - they want to carefully monitor and control the knowledge as it goes to young people.

The organization is more suitable to the Soviet Union - it is a pro-censorship organization, under the misguided idea that kids' minds are too fragile to even know the existence of gay people.

I can't say per se that they're motivated by hate. I rather call it as I see it: they're motivated by the authoritarian impulse. Anyone who has a list of enemies a mile long and seeks to clense what the youth can see and hear is an authoritarian. I've seen what they consider to be 'offensive material' - anything that presents a different view on gender than their own.

I can't endorse overgrown children who can't tolerate anyone that doesn't think they do.

I support people saying what they want about trans people - but I oppose anyone who doesn't want to preserve the freedom of the children of this nation. I oppose pro-censorship movements including that one, and anyone should regardless of their political ideology. If you endorse them censoring the views you don't like this time, soon there's no more freedom for your views either; endorsing this is betraying the very nature of democracy.

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InvisibleCh3f

Registered: 03/09/22
Posts: 20
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28670774 - 02/22/24 03:01 AM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Blue_Lux said:
The problem is the pressures that already exist that are placed upon children... They are oppressive measures of control. Sexuality is policed. The handlers want obedient, reproductive workers. Those who cannot or will not are mostly excluded from everything that involves community, except, of course, church. Children fixate on little things that they can use to psychologically cope with the unfair treatment by society. This is what they want to oppose. Most of the trans people are really utterly oppressed gay and lesbian or bisexual people. They have been abused so badly by society that they actually begin to feel that they do not belong in their own bodies, because they are objectified by objectifications of their desires and feelings. This is internalized so much, the very nature of their own body becomes in question. The problem is society. There are utterly deep problems, and book banning is completely and utterly absurd. Well educated people know the difference between a good and a bad book.





There is truth to this. The alienation we all feel as a part of this capitalist authoritarian world of arbitrary structures is a very real thing. It twists us all up inside. The damage it does to all of us is multi-faceted, and manifests in lots of different ways. You're describing and attributing gender dysphoria though- a concept derived from the illness-model of mental health that essentially asserts transgender identity as mental illness. This is a limited idea that doesn't describe all transgender identities. Personally I find the illness model of mental health to be abhorrent, but regardless of my feelings, there is a lot of evidence to argue that transgender identity cannot be ascribed to this alone. A big problem is our culture's binary understanding of gender. There are many, many cultures throughout history that have had more genders than male or females. We as a society are exploring that idea now, but have not put enough collective effort into redefining our ideas, but instead have passed the buck to gender theorists and the transgender community to provide new ideas for us. This has generally led to a lot of confusion and a lot of people proposing silly ideas that not many people agree with but which people still take very seriously. One example of this would be the ever-expanding list of possible gender pronouns.

In my opinion, the REAL problem and root cause of anti-transgender sentiment is neither the trans community itself, nor these skeptics I've been discussing. The problem is well-meaning but intellectually lazy liberals who are not engaging with the ideas proposed by the trans community, instead blindly agreeing with and enforcing these ideas. If everyone collectively agreed to actually engage with these ideas, conservatives would have far less to bitch about, and the trans community's worst ideas would be disregarded. Instead we have the trans community running wild with a lot of ideas, good and bad, and liberals giving them free rein to assert ALL of their ideas and agreeing to enforce them on each other.

Edited by Ch3f (02/22/24 12:14 PM)

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f] * 1
    #28671827 - 02/22/24 07:10 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

Ch3f said
Quote:

There are many, many cultures throughout history that have had more genders than male or females. We as a society are exploring that idea now, but have not put enough collective effort into redefining our ideas, but instead have passed the buck to gender theorists and the transgender community to provide new ideas for us. This has generally led to a lot of confusion and a lot of people proposing silly ideas that not many people agree with but which people still take very seriously. One example of this would be the ever-expanding list of possible gender pronouns.

The problem is well-meaning but intellectually lazy liberals who are not engaging with the ideas proposed by the trans community, instead blindly agreeing with and enforcing these ideas. If everyone collectively agreed to actually engage with these ideas, conservatives would have far less to bitch about, and the trans community's worst ideas would be disregarded. Instead we have the trans community running wild with a lot of ideas, good and bad, and liberals giving them free rein to assert ALL of their ideas and agreeing to enforce them on each other.





1. Definitions rob the reality.
2. The issue is not gender theory but the oppression, repression, policing, and control of sexuality, which leads to problems in the area of sexuality. People feel deeply negative feelings about sexuality, and they are made to feel these things, because these feelings are not fitting into the mould that is being forced upon them. It is squeezing out of the sides like Playdoh.
3. People are made into things, and the things are themselves fetishized; and so people as a concept become fetished; and so, too, because people are two sexes... with small exceptions... The exception does not break the rule. The typicality, the generality, and hence the common conception and idea is that people have two sexes, because this is the most consistent occurrence. When people are made into things, so is "what it means" to be either sex. What it means becomes fetishized. Someone who does not fit into this gender role, instead of realizing the brokenness of society, which would make them truly insane, they rationalize it by seeing something wrong with their own body. It is easier to write something off as a necessity of one's facticity than it is to assert it is the result of something outside of them, exercising oppression; but it is really that way.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f] * 2
    #28671833 - 02/22/24 07:18 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

What I'm saying is society has cultivated exactly the fetishization of the sexes so much that it has created transgenderism as a defense from sexual oppression and shame, which does seriously injure people from a young age, because the feelings of their own identity and sexuality have become muddled and confused by the convoluted (and actually senseless) meanings reinforced in, truly, utterly disparate things. People seek refuge in the facade of a gender, of exactly being something other than what is ridiculed so much -> male effeminacy, and genuine female masculinity, such as bearded women, which was a subject of mockery I saw as a child. I never really understood why people care, but I do now. It is because they are hypnotized by a social system programmed by sexual fetishization itself, which goes hand in hand with class and money, and hence power. This is why there are so many sexual lawsuits against powerful people, because so many of them only use people, and so they basically rape everyone they have sex with.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleCh3f

Registered: 03/09/22
Posts: 20
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28671903 - 02/22/24 08:18 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

That's very well said. Thank you for elaborating. I completely agree. I'm curious though, how do you think these truths can be incorporated into our society?
Our society, as it is now, needs definitions and categorizations to function. We need boxes to check on forms. Computer systems and analytical techniques, as they are now, cannot deal with infinite variation, nor are they well equipped to discern "shades of grey" so to speak. I agree that definitions rob reality. I detest our reliance on them, but I cannot see us progressing beyond them anytime soon.
I was interested to see this thread because I've thought a lot about these ideas and this mushroom-loving community seems the most well-equipped to think critically about these topics. I'm interested in bridging the gap. A lot of discourse surrounding the trans-community is very silly and short-sighted, but I see valid points on both sides. Your suggestion of accepting the spectrum of masculinity in females and effeminacy in males is probably closer to the truth than we'll get from any other approach. However, I cannot see the trans community accepting that within our lifetimes. It will essentially mean abandoning most of the progress they've made through their movement. I see third and fourth genders, for feminine men and masculine women, as a more palatable solution for everyone. Perhaps to include a fifth. It will probably be unpopular with everyone, since it is essentially a compromise. But it will give us the definitions and categories our institutions need while allowing for the flexibility that trans-identifying individuals are calling for.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f]
    #28671925 - 02/22/24 08:29 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

People will always rebel against it until they are ubiquitously understood as Walt Whitman said... "I contain multitudes." People contain multitudes. They may be a certain way, and tomorrow may contradict, and nonetheless have felt the same about both. As you said, this doesn't amount to a city running smoothly, with daily operations... That must exist, yes, but something else must exist to satisfy and give the other side to us its due credit. That people are actually not what they even may willingly be. People would be more accepting of having to live in that illusion if only the illusion was out in the open and understood, alongside something else that satisfies that open, undefinable aspect to us that hates limitations and restrictions. I think things like this have always necessarily existed in civilization but are now seriously reduced. Pleasure itself is nailed down to numbers. Satiety can be calculated. Control is all about controlling pleasures in people.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Ch3f]
    #28671932 - 02/22/24 08:34 PM (4 months, 1 day ago)

What it really means is trusting how things will just go if people are allowed to feel what they feel and show it and mean it, out in the open. So much of this is restricted and controlled from the outset. People are made into precisely what they then have problems about... Not knowing they are actually not any of that and are something else. The problems are extraordinary. The solution starts with real, chemical empathy. Only then are people really accepted to be what we really are... very vast within. People are made to believe anything but that, because that is dangerous for those who want control.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,214
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 15 hours, 57 minutes
Re: Transgender hate [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28672402 - 02/23/24 08:01 AM (4 months, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:

Organizations such as the one you mention would rather try to teach kids as if there is no such thing as LGBT people.




100% untrue.  That's the hateful propaganda NBC & CNN have pushed for years

For parents who care - this is war.  I talk to these parents.  This is war.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28672438 - 02/23/24 08:33 AM (4 months, 15 hours ago)

Lol. People only let you down. It is true. Maybe 1 person your whole life won't.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleCh3f

Registered: 03/09/22
Posts: 20
Re: Transgender hate [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28673001 - 02/23/24 04:22 PM (4 months, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
For parents who care - this is war.  I talk to these parents.  This is war.




Honestly, that sounds to me like completely unnecessary sensationalist language. You should not be surprised if anyone takes statements like that the wrong way, or concludes that your 'war' is driven by hate or ignorance. I think if you are at war with someone, hate and ignorance are definitely part of that war. I wouldn't go to war with someone I don't hate. I would try to find peaceful solutions. You're not giving a lot of detail to your positions though, and I'm curious. What are the battle lines in this war? What specific issues pertaining to trans-issues are you calling for the end of? I think you mentioned trans-athletes and pro-trans books in schools. It's interesting to me because I also don't  agree with the popular pro-trans movement on those two specific hot-button issues.

Edited by Ch3f (02/23/24 08:30 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,483
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Blue_Lux] * 2
    #28673021 - 02/23/24 04:49 PM (4 months, 7 hours ago)

For myself, I do not want to talk about my sexuality or relate to others with sexuality in mind, with exceptions. It's not important. Conduct is important which is a whole different issue that isn't specific to sex or orientation. I don't believe in gay pride for the same reason I don't believe in straight pride. It's nothing to be proud of or ashamed of and yet there's whole industries focused on one or the other. Agreed that the trans-phenomena is one outcome of sexualizing every facet of adult life and then younger and younger. Unlike gay etc. trans require in many cases drugs and surgery. Goods and services that can be very profitable and potentially for life long customers.

There's money to be made on rainbow flags and money to be made on hiding it. Those companies are likely owned by the same conglomerates. And they'll all sell you a Coke. Or a Pepsi. It's all friendly competition.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know


"A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." - Proverbs 17:22

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InvisibleGenericHero
crap dangit this sucks!


Registered: 07/07/20
Posts: 2,336
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Rahz]
    #28673084 - 02/23/24 05:37 PM (4 months, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

TheStallionMang said: If someone can put this in a way that doesn't sound like child sexual abuse, i'm willing to listen but... holy shit, good luck with that.




post surgery wound care. happens to everyone who gets surgery. i had hand surgery and had to rub goop into the wound past a certain point in time. if i had penis surgery my wound care would look sexual. if i needed help applying it, it would look like i was being serviced


The testimony of modern art:

"Anyone who attempts to gain a unified understanding of modern art as a whole is bound to suffer the uncomfortable sensation of having fallen into a thicket of brambles. we ourselves are involved in the subject, and we can hardly achieve the detachment of the historian a few centuries hence.Modern art still provokes violent controversy, even after it has been on the scene a good half century and names like Picasso and Joyce have become almost household words. the philistine still finds it shocking, scandalous, and foolish; and there is always a case to be made for the philistine, and surely for the philistine in ours3elves without whom we could not carry on the drab business of ordinary living. Indeed, from the point of view we are taking here, the philistine attitude, particularly in its irritation, may be just as revelatory historically as any other. but it is a case not only of the philistine; sensitive observers still exist-directors of museums, connoisseurs, and historians-who find in modern art a disastrous falling away from the excellence of the art of the past. in a sense, all this controversy is pointless; so much of it has to do with the eventual historical rating of our own period, which is something we cannot even foresee. the century from Manet to Matisse may figure in future art histories as a period of impoverishment and decline, whose works cannot stand beside those of the old masters; or it may figure as a period of such abundant creativity that it can be matched only by the renaissance during the fifteenth century. my own personal prejudice is toward the latter judgment, but i have no way of proving it; and such speculation, in any case, does not enter into my own experience of this art. We have simply got to give up the attempt to assess ourselves for posterity; the men of the future will form their own opinions without our help. what we so self-consciously call "modern art," after all, is nothing more nor less than the art of this time, our art; there is no other today. if we could have a different art, or a better, we would have it, as it is, we are luck in this period to have any art at all. the philistine rebukes the artist for being willful, as if all of modern art were a deliberate conspiracy against him, the viewer; the artist can hardly hope to make this man understand that art is not a mere matter of conscious will and conscious contrivance, and that the artist, by changing his ideas (even by adoption the philistine's), will not become a different person living at a different time and place. in the end the only authentic art is that which has about it the power of inevitability."

"Nevertheless, the controversy,  irritation, and bafflement to which modern art gives rise does provide us a very effective handle with which to take hold of it. irritation usually arises when something touches a sore spot in ourselves, which most of the time we would like desperately to hide; rarely if ever does the fault lie totally with the provoking object. modern art touches a sore spot, or several sore spots, in the ordinary citizen of which he is totally unaware. the more irritated he becomes at modern art the more he betrays the fact that he himself, and his civilization, are implicated in what the artist shows him. the ordinary citizen objects to modern art because it is difficult and obscure. is it so certain that the world the ordinary citizen takes for granted, the values upon which his civilization rests are so clear, either to him or in themselves? sometimes the artist's image is very clear (in general, modern art is simpler that academic art), but it goes against the grain of the ordinary man because secretly he understands its intent all too well; and besides, he has already limited "understanding" to the habitual pigeonholes into which he slips every experience. the ordinary man is uncomfortable, angry, or derisive before the dislocation of forms in modern art, before its bold distortions, or arbitrary manipulations of objects. the painter puts three or more eyes in the face, or several noses, or twists and elongates the body at the expense of photographic resemblance in order to build up his own inner image. has the contrary attitude of strict and literal attachment to objects succeeded in resolving all the anxieties of the ordinary man, and has not in fact the rampant extroversion of modern civilization brought it to the brink of the abyss? finally, the ordinary man-and in this respect the ordinary man is joined by the learned and sensitive traditionalist in art-objects to the content of modern art: it is too bare and bleak, too negative or "nihilistic," too shocking or scandalous; it dishes out unpalatable truths. but have the traditional ideals worked so well in this century that we can afford to neglect the unpalatable truths abut human life that those ideals have chosen to ignore?does that aesthete who extols the greatness of the past as an argument against modern art have any idea of how pallid hos own response to, say, the virgin of Chartres appears beside the medieval man's response? or that his own aestheticism, however cultured, is in fact a form of sentimentality-since sentimentality, at bottom, is nothing but false feeling, feeling that is untrue to its object, whether by being excessive or watered down?"

-william barrett


--------------------
halfass mycology

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,483
Re: Transgender hate [Re: GenericHero] * 1
    #28696265 - 03/12/24 10:36 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Relating to the idea that everything is sexualized today, there's a TikTok girl that hunts and fishes and helps her dad build houses. She's beautiful which is the other half of the reason she's gotten attention.

Anyway, some internet famous influencer, one of those who have obvious lip filler and the whole fake face look that somehow still has 100,000s of followers posted a clip of the girl with the comment that her (Southern) accent should be banned and no women should be doing men's work.

When I was young there were tomboys. Perhaps there were cliques of girls who would look down on them but for the most part they were accepted. I thought they were cool. There's nothing wrong with them at any rate.

But today, instead of a clique of mean girls at school, tomboys are called out on social media and shamed by masses of people. Granted the one in question has a popular TikTok channel but even without that, there are tomboys and girls who lean gender neutral out there who read these things. They're going to feel shame for being the way they are. Some of them will think the are boys or should have been a boy.

While trans-men don't get the attention trans-women have my understanding is that the majority of trans are females who don't want to be female or don't like being female.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know


"A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones." - Proverbs 17:22

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Rahz]
    #28696273 - 03/12/24 10:40 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

It's called penis envy. Freud wrote about it for decades. It is at the core of his theory. There is the castration anxiety and the penis envy. This is at the heart of transgenderism. You want to be canceled quick? Say what I just said! It is, however, true. Freud wrote specifically about this in his book 'The Sexual Enlightenment of Children,' a rather tongue in cheek title I must say but that book is indispensable if you want to know something about how to think about these things.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Rahz]
    #28696278 - 03/12/24 10:43 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

In extremely basic terms for someone who doesn't know the terminology

A homosexual who overcomes the castration complex will be gay. One who does not, and remains neurotic by it, will seek to remove his maleness, namely the penis.
A lesbian who overcomes penis envy will be a lesbian. A lesbian who remains neurotic by it will seek to remove her femaleness, and seek an actual penis.

Masculinity versus feminity is just a personality trait. The actual psychological complex is Freud's. Fixations upon femininity and masculinity are exactly symptomatic of having the penis envy or castration anxiety unresolved.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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InvisibleBlue_Lux
τό κᾰτᾰπεπτωκός φροντιστής
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/07/19
Posts: 4,664
Loc: chillin' on Charon's skiff
Re: Transgender hate [Re: Rahz]
    #28696289 - 03/12/24 10:49 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

So to satisfy the penis envy, the person has a negative relation to the demand, and actually seeks to transform herself to claim the castrated phallus... which is, of course, the neurotic, underlying, psychological complex. And it is complicated by the fact that the clitorus does work like a sort of penis, as Freud also mentioned. So, there is some truth to a female penis, but the entire thing can be exacerbated if people are aware of this and deliberately target homosexual individuals with information that prevents the necessary, healthy repression, which is the basis of healthy sublimation and emotional transference.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
atissimæ profundæque
                              veritates amandæ sunt,
                              sic ideo necesse est:
                              res maxima amanda est.
                      potus sitis bene scimus
                cum nos id adeo explet,               
              cum alto hic movet imus:
                res maxima omnis amor.

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