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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
#28666697 - 02/19/24 11:04 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Thanks again taku.
So if I'll get 20% yield with straw pellets there's no point starting to sterilize. Of course I would hope to get some super 30% yield with straw pellet + bran if plain straw pellet gives 20%. But I'm not so sure it gives that much anymore. Spacewise there should be no difference, since I can only put X amount of sub in my FC's (co2 is the limiting factor along with physical space). Whether it's 25lb column bags or 10lb blocks, the same maximum amount of sub goes in.
I read more and found out that in this corner of the earth one must have a new autoclave registered and inspected before use, and then have periodic inspections. And they all cost $. They will evaluate even the positioning of the autoclave in the room etc. Not sure if they'll even approve any positioning since I don't have any hard walls inside the room etc. Now fuck that. And CE certificate is required or it won't be let in the country. So I'm limited to 150L. I'll be writing some inspection companies to get an idea of the costs and the hassle and if they'll even approve it in my place.
Now that the whole autoclave thing seems less appealing all of the sudden.. I'll ask about the DIY atmospheric sterilizer. I think I've read the sentence "it's basically just a drum and a heating element", but can it be exactly that? Here's what I'm thinking: A 500L SS drum with a tap in the bottom for easy drainage (I've seen one for 500$, comes with lid), and a heating element installed in (almost) bottom too. Wrap some insulation around it. And maybe a small hole in the lid to allow excess steam escape? Then just pour enough water (say 50L or something to be sure) to the bottom to last the cycle and plug the heating element to electricity with a simple 5$ outlet timer set for 24 hours. Can I just leave the element to heat all the time? I mean, since it's atmospheric it cannot go over 100 Celsius or build pressure. Just leave it there to do it's job and unplug when ready. Is that it? Do I need something more fancy?
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taku
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28667446 - 02/19/24 09:45 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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ok so i think i misunderstood you. you get 20% yield on unsupplemented straw pellets currently and wondering what % to expect if you were to supplement the straw?
if that's the question, i'm less certain since i only use hwfp. i get 20% using wheat bran on sterilized hwfp. i would imagine your yield would increase if you are suddenly supplementing.
the atmospheric sterilizer you speak of i am assuming is the ultra pasteurizer, like a bubba barrel - a drum with element that steams some bags for 18-24hrs. there are quite a few videos online on how to build these, and I know Shroomsisay01 is a good resource for building them as well. you can look up bubba barrel, or ex bake barrel. you can also create a steam barrel that just creates steam that is then fed to a larger vessel like an animal trough. Long Beach Mushrooms has a good video on how to make that. i can't get into detail on those since i haven't built one (yet).
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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
#28667521 - 02/19/24 11:19 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Yes, that's what I meant.
And to be precise, I only got that 20% with another brand of pellets which I'm starting to use again this week actually. Not sure though if I'll get the same yield anymore since my FC is more crowded and earlier I may have run the FC with too high temps and picked a bit late since my noobness level was highet at the time (increasing yield but reducing quality). But assuming I get the 20%, my logic would also be that yield would increase if I suddenly started adding bran. In the end I can only try and see I guess. Just gotta hope the yield won't stay the same after I invested in all this.
Yeah I'm talking about a bubba barrel type thing. I've checked the Shroomsisay01's tek and it had ton of very intimidating electricity work that I'll never do - don't have any experience on electricity stuff. Also I'm concerned about the element coming loose from the barrel (what is actually talked about in the video you linked). But we'll see. Maybe I could hire somebody to do the electricity work for me. I'll read up more about the bubba style steamers and wait for replies from the autoclave inspecting companies.. We'll see.
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taku
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28668809 - 02/20/24 08:20 PM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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for sure. electricity is nothing to mess with, especially when introducing water into it haha.
hope you find a suitable solution
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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
#28668968 - 02/20/24 11:07 PM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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Allright I got quotes from the pressure vessel inspecting companies. It will cost about 500$ to register the autoclave and then another 500$ every other year for mandatory inspections. And only CE-marked autoclaves are allowed so 150L would be the size. I've come to a conclusion: Fuck it.
DIY steamer it is. I'll start to read up for real and have someone to do the electricity stuff. Might pop up another thread aobut the build if needed. I saw a pretty nice 750L SS container, it's slim and tall so it would fit the space I have nicely.
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mycoheadonaut
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666] 1
#28668970 - 02/20/24 11:16 PM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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I own a 150l auto clave and a 350 gallon atmospheric sterilizer and like 5 AA's I use all depending what's going on been using all for years mine is a 55 gallon tank boiler 240v hooked up to a 350 gallon ss tank
Had to dig a hole so water flowed back to the boiler unit but if done properly which isn't hard and ran for correct time after internal Temps have registered your good to go
I also do gourmets and medicinals commercially
Here's manual for the autoclave I just got only used this one bout 10 times so far but love it so far!
Edited by mycoheadonaut (02/20/24 11:23 PM)
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spasm666
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Nice. Cool idea digging that thing in the ground.
Do you think this would work:
200 gallon stainless steel container with a heating element installed near the bottom (no idea how many watts should that be). Two small holes in the lid, one for a temperature probe cord and one for little steam escape. Nothing else.
Fill with plenty of water manually, plug the element in to a electricity outlet. Monitor the temp inside a block with the probe and let run for 20hrs starting from when temp is reached. Unplug when done and wait for cooling down.
So just a heating element and a temp probe. I don't understand why I would need anything more, as long as I'm sure to pour enough water in the container.
Can I just run the element all the time? Do I want the water to actually boil?
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deadmandave
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28669358 - 02/21/24 08:44 AM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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You can do that but it seems a lot less stressful to do an iota of work up front (install a timer and a PID) so that you dont have to be mentally monitoring the steamer as it cooks. Way more relaxed when you just push the on button and walk away not thinking about it until unload.
you can get away with just a timer but a PID will make the whole thing more energy efficient and use less water which will make it less likely to burn down. you can even add a low water shut off if youre so inclined.
to answer another question you posed, you can unload blocks pretty much anywhere and let them sit for a few days and then wipe with alcohol before inoculation.
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spasm666
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Edited whole post and trying again..
Yeah sure it would be less stressful to just push a button and forget about it, in theory. In practice I think I would be more stressed about having a PID controller built safe and working, about melting relays and cords etc. The electricity work in those teks are way over my head, and appear extremely daunting and intimidating. Probably I'm not going to build that thing myself, and right now I can't think of anyone who would.
If I just probed the internal temps of a block to see how long to go until temp is reached, I'd only need to plug a low-powered heating element on and put it on a simple socket timer based on the results. That is as set-and-forget as the PID thing in the end, right? The only difference would be in the electricity bill, but it's not gonna kill me. And time of course since it will heat up slowly with a weak element. But that's just scheduling. For a 200 gallon steamer filled with 10lb blocks, maybe a bit more than 1500W? 2000w?
Edited by spasm666 (02/21/24 12:56 PM)
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mycoheadonaut
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28669713 - 02/21/24 12:53 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Sure it'll work just understand the BASIC theory of how it works water boils steam rises to heat and sterilize your contents that steam needs to be running through for so long that simple just like the lines of a pc or ac just not as high as pressure so longer run times so yes theoretically what you said would work
I've used the sterilizer for grain and master mix bags now a days I use ac for grain and sterilizer for master mix no issues just a preference thing only thing I would suggest using a sterilizer a big one not a little 55 gallon get good pp bags or actual autoclave bags so your not trying to unload 200+ bags at a time
I've made self contained Bubba barrels yes the heating element will run 24/7 [no pid box or timer] yes water needs to boil the whole time and honestly I would start getting more hands on if you really want to expand its gonna get really expensive hiring out work like that
Pid boxes and timers are amazing I've personally ran 55 galls with no pid or timer just a heating element and a drain valve just more mental work for you I would recommend a pid at the least they're not hard to hook up plenty of videos to walk you through or forums correct pid will turn it off and on to set temp
My boiler unit for 350 gallon tank is 240v 6500w
I will admit the only units to ever burn down for me were units without pids and low level shut offs lol so it does keep a peace of mind when running a system 24 hrs or more especially if you have to walk away from it
Edited by mycoheadonaut (02/21/24 01:04 PM)
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spasm666
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Yeah. I'll do some more reading and video watching. It's just that the electricity stuff scares the hell outta me, I have zero experience of it. Anything else I'll be happy to rig up myself, as I've done so far. If I find some trustworthy electrician or some dude to build me this one thing, I won't be bankrupt. I was just gonna buy an autoclave so even if I hired someone to do this one piece of work it'll be still cheaper. Easiest would be to run a low-watt element all the time. Pour 100L of water and it won't burn dry, right? But yeah I'll look into the PID thing more before making moves.
Quote:
mycoheadonaut said:only thing I would suggest using a sterilizer a big one not a little 55 gallon get good pp bags or actual autoclave bags so your not trying to unload 200+ bags at a time
Sorry I didn't quite get this. How does getting good bags affect the amount of bags I'll unload at a time?
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mycoheadonaut
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28669829 - 02/21/24 02:06 PM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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you'll need something to withstand heat and humidity and not grow mold on it.. I even used to use the bags oats and rye came in to load up spawn bags and master mix bags those would hold up pretty good
Yeaaaa well finally reading your OP and some the following replies I think you got a long way to to with costs and everything from over head costs to spawn costs to not producing your own spawn everything imo I converted two 50 ft connex boxes insulated and wired by me one is lab and colonization room other is a green house and no over head other than my usual mortgage
You gonna be bankrupt after that?
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spasm666
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So are you suggesting I should sterilize my blocks inside some big pp bags? Or to unload the sterilized blocks into pp bags?
Thanks for your concern but costwise I'm allright. Just trying to figure out if it makes sense to start supplementing and how do I do it best.
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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28671082 - 02/22/24 08:59 AM (4 months, 1 day ago) |
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Is it true that if I unload blocks from sterilizer while they are hot, they are/won't seal themselves? Is this different with pressurised and atmospheric sterilization?
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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28676859 - 02/26/24 12:03 PM (3 months, 28 days ago) |
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taku
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28677826 - 02/27/24 07:27 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
spasm666 said: Is it true that if I unload blocks from sterilizer while they are hot, they are/won't seal themselves? Is this different with pressurised and atmospheric sterilization?
they will still seal, the big reason people don't usually do that though is because as they cool, they are drawing air into the bag. if they cool in the autoclave/pressure cooker, it's air that is sterile. if they cool in a random space, then there's a chance for contamination through the cooling process. i don't know how likely or often that is since i let me pc cool down before opening in front of the flow hood. im pretty sure you would be fine letting them cool outside of the pc/autoclave though.
Quote:
spasm666 said: Found these. What do you think? The first one is from US and seem more trustworthy, but it's limited to 3300W in EU sockets. The other one is straight from China but it's for 15kW so it shouldn't melt with a 5kW or so element. I'd be happy to buy one pre-wired and just stick the probe and element in. I'll be using a 750L SS container, is 3kW element too low - will it take like two days to get the run done?
that second one looks pretty beefy. seems like overkill, but the price seems right and if it works for your needs then i don't see the downside. it also looks like it might be more precise temp readings/control. this stuff is out of my element though, so hopefully others chime in
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Edited by taku (02/27/24 07:55 AM)
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deadmandave
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: taku]
#28677960 - 02/27/24 09:35 AM (3 months, 27 days ago) |
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First link looks right but it's only 15amp. Second is 32 amp but I don't see where to plug in the heating element :???:
Hit up shroomsisay, he builds and sells these things. Maybe he'd be willing to ship international or help you find the right unit.
Like many things in mush farming, it looks intimidating at first but if you take it one piece at a time it is all really simple. Just a few wires, a few components, one sheet of notebook paper and you can diagram the whole thing.
Look at the brewing videos if you want to understand how to build one.
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spasm666
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Quote:
taku said: they will still seal, the big reason people don't usually do that though is because as they cool, they are drawing air into the bag. if they cool in the autoclave/pressure cooker, it's air that is sterile. if they cool in a random space, then there's a chance for contamination through the cooling process. i don't know how likely or often that is since i let me pc cool down before opening in front of the flow hood. im pretty sure you would be fine letting them cool outside of the pc/autoclave though.
Allright, thanks. I decided to skip the autoclave because of the high inspection costs and build a SS steamer after all. So basically if I let the blocks cool in the steamer they might draw contaminants in inside the steamer, since it's not 100% sealed and unsterilized air can enter? But that seems unlikely. I think I might be able to cool the blocks in the steamer, not needing to put them in random places. Maybe. But yeah I'll be allright with this all I think.
Quote:
deadmandave said: First link looks right but it's only 15amp. Second is 32 amp but I don't see where to plug in the heating element :???:
Hit up shroomsisay, he builds and sells these things. Maybe he'd be willing to ship international or help you find the right unit.
Like many things in mush farming, it looks intimidating at first but if you take it one piece at a time it is all really simple. Just a few wires, a few components, one sheet of notebook paper and you can diagram the whole thing.
Look at the brewing videos if you want to understand how to build one.
Yeah for a 750L sterilizer 15amp is not going to be enough. Good point with the second one. I'm not sure but maybe I'm supposed to wire the element without a socket, but just wires straight to the thing?
Yeah I watched that video and it all seems quite simple. If I don't find a ready-made one or can't have anyone reliable to build me one I guess I'll do it myself. But still, that's the last option. I PM'd Shroomsisay.
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spasm666
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28722035 - 04/01/24 12:47 AM (2 months, 25 days ago) |
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Hello. A quick question about the sterilizer. Is it bad idea to get a rectangular sterilizer? I found a nice 900L SS tank with drain installed for 50 bucks, but it's not round. Will that be a problem? In a round sterilizer one can lay the blocks nicely so the steam can run between the walls and the blocks, but with rectangular shape it won't work. I'd need to figure out a good way to lay the blocks, or should I just wait for a nice round one? 10lb blocks
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GRETO
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Re: The leap to sterilizing [Re: spasm666]
#28723530 - 04/02/24 02:55 PM (2 months, 23 days ago) |
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I personally use a round barrel but I know one producer in my country who is using a rectangular one and it run just fine.
Regarding the steam run, I remember that he even try to make a system with a perforated pipe to distribute the steam but at the end, it worked just as well without it. Maybe some bags at the edge will take longer to heat up but difficult to know without testing.
It is sure that it is better to let little bit of space between some bags if you want that steam run everywhere but it is the same with round one. I usually put 25 bags in my steamer 5 level of 5 bags. I tried with 5 levels of 6 bags to the point that it is difficult to get them in. Took way more time to get 90° inside the up center bag and was a nightmare to unload hahaha
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