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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic.
    #28663393 - 02/17/24 06:32 AM (4 months, 6 days ago)

I have tried using CBD with or without THC to treat anxiety.

My observation is that high doses, even just over 50mg, can have paradoxical negative effects.

In terms of using it to mitigate the negative effects of THC: higher doses of CBD do not completely block or deactivate THC's effects - it only does so if the dose of THC remains low, an essentially inactive amount such as .25mg. High doses of oral CBD can enhance a cannabis experience.

CBD seems to have some stimulant properties at odds with anxyolisis - a diuretic effect, and past 50mg jitteriness and increased anxiety. This is with zero THC. That's been my experience.

I think for those with anxiety, a low dose might be tried, 5mg or even less. After a break, I may try that. But given the stimulant effects I've experienced, I'm not sure if it is good for anxiety relief.

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28663445 - 02/17/24 07:32 AM (4 months, 6 days ago)

I think a better use of CBD is with low doses of THC. CBD can modulate and possibly enhance the effect of THC (if given in a 1:1 ratio); it can raise blood levels of THC. I do think that if the CBD is low, it can in fact reduce anxiety on THC. However, if the CBD is too high, it reduces the euphoric effect too much but doesn't replace it with anything useful. On the contrary, CBD that is too high can have negative effects on its own. I like a low dose of CBD and a low dose of THC: such as 5mg each.

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OfflineEightOEight
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28663501 - 02/17/24 08:16 AM (4 months, 6 days ago)

This is fascinating results you’ve discovered, its absurd how little we actually understand about the interactions of the different cannabinoids in cannabis and how the modulate the users experience.

More work needs to be done on the various cannabinoids and how they interact with each other.


Excellent stuff :thumbup:

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: EightOEight] * 1
    #28664876 - 02/18/24 04:00 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

EightOEight said:
This is fascinating results you’ve discovered, its absurd how little we actually understand about the interactions of the different cannabinoids in cannabis and how the modulate the users experience.

More work needs to be done on the various cannabinoids and how they interact with each other.


Excellent stuff :thumbup:





I think serotonin is the key. THC is mostly active at 5-ht2a and CBD is active at 5-ht1a. 5-ht1a is known to antagonize 2a, though if they are both in excess, they contribute to anxiety.

I encourage others to experiment with these two substances together, especially if you are of the persuasion that you don't have more to learn from THC - the combination modulates the effect,  even potentially making it more clear-headed and possibly more medically useful. It reduces euphoria, though it can increase the effect on the body. I'm still not certain what I think of the combination myself. Nonetheless, today I tried 5mg THC/about 7mg CBD, so I can see what I think of a small dose of each.

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Onlinebling
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28665097 - 02/18/24 08:21 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

CBD is garbage.


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone] * 2
    #28665271 - 02/18/24 10:09 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

CBD is also a CB antagonist.  It blocks THC at the receptors as well as endocannabinoids we release during exercise.

This will cause down steam effects, like THC binding to less preferred (by the molecule) receptors.

Endocannabinoids are a natural anxiolitic.  Part of how exercise relieves stress.  Encouraging us to rest after spending large amounts of energy.

THC could be too, but it binds with receptors in our heart that cause small amounts of cardiac distress.  Which a lot of people are sensitive too.  It also encourages us to rest, without exercising.  Which over the long run, for me, had a net negative on my health, anxiety, and pain levels.

CBD could potentially increase this binding at the heart by THC, by blocking the cb receptors that THC would otherwise bind to.

Quiting both myself and taking PEA, sn endocannabinoid receptor modulator, while my system regains homeostasis.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: tree frog]
    #28665423 - 02/18/24 12:07 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Thank you for the knowledge tree frog. I guess my question is, if you are continuing to take a cannabinoid-based therapy, why did you decide to quit CBD? Quitting THC makes sense since it is psychoactive and can be a vice. Was CBD having similar negative effects?

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28665676 - 02/18/24 02:41 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

An antagonist is going to prevent endocannabinoids from working too/make exercise less rewarding.  And have an opposite withdrawal to THC if I decided to quit after using it long term.

PEA is a hormone (endo-cannibinoid, stress on the endo).  It's what our body already uses to return these receptors to homeostasis.

I'm giving my body some help to get over withdrawals, essentially.

It also helps with inflammation and would itself be blocked by an antagonist like CBD.  And I live with chronic pain.  First heard about PEA from another pain sufferer actually who had good results with it.  Their pain Dr recommended it.

Of course, when I first tried it over covid I was smoking a lot of weed and it probably had fewer places to bind and thus much reduced efficacy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitoylethanolamide


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Edited by tree frog (02/18/24 02:53 PM)

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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: tree frog]
    #28665750 - 02/18/24 03:43 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

That's a good point about it being an antagonist. Though, the research I found suggests it's only a partial one unless the dose is quite high. That being said though, if it's an antagonist, can't that work to opposite purposes from THC?

I see some people trying to say that basically CBD can provide the benefits of THC, such as reduced nausea, better sleep, etc, except without getting you high. But from the chemistry, it suggests that they actually are opposites (partial agonist vs a partial antagonist).

So CBD could make exercise less 'rewarding' and reduce the benefits of it. At the least, the chemistry present here suggests that possibility.

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Onlinebling
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28665757 - 02/18/24 03:49 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Some CBD i bought at a corner store.


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28666017 - 02/18/24 07:31 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Full agonist means maximum activation.

LSD is a partial agonist for 5ht2a. No matter how much you take, it won't activate the receptors completely.  You can get higher taking more, because you have more receptors.

If you're familiar with the 25 NBOMe series that was going around about ten years ago and killing people, these were full 5ht2a agonists.

Antagonists on the other hand bind to the receptor without activation.  In doing so they prevent agonists (including endogenous ones) without a strong enough charge from binding there.  Because they already occupy the receptor, the non-occupying molecule has to overcome the combined charge of the cell's receptir (which adapts, this is what down regulation/up regulation is) and the antagonist or bind to another receptor if available.  If it has binding affinity for another receptor type, it will probably end up there instead (this is what I was referring to about CBD possibly pushing more THC towards receptors that cause heart distress).

As antagonists don't activate receptors, they're not classified as full or partial.  Though there are other variations and I linked the wiki article below if you want to look deeper.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptor_antagonist


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Edited by tree frog (02/18/24 07:51 PM)

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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: tree frog]
    #28666914 - 02/19/24 01:34 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

I’ve found CBD really helpful for exercise recovery. I feel increased circulation.
It also makes me quite sleepy and can helps with anxiety taken between 25-75mg

Some evenings when I feel like drinking a few beers but also don’t want alcohol I’ll take CBD and it’s really nice.


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #28666961 - 02/19/24 01:56 PM (4 months, 3 days ago)

I'd prefer CBD over a beer for a nightcap too.  Even a beer dehydrates me.

I think with all of this dose, frequency of dose, and harm reduction (taking some CBD instead of drinking) are important factors for anyone to keep in mind.

CBD is excellent medicine for people in chemo too.  Better than starving because your stomach is all fucked up for sure.  Regardless of how long term use might affect those receptors.  Our cells need nutrients after all.

And I used weed as harm reduction to stop a nasty DXM habit that almost killed me over COVID.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: bling] * 1
    #28667730 - 02/20/24 06:09 AM (4 months, 3 days ago)

When it comes to harm reduction, I found that CBD is probably not a good choice to try to reduce the 'intensity' of THC. It's better to just take a lower dose of THC and to exercise better self-control. I found the CBD:THC combined experience to often be lacking, a bit more finnicky and harder to control. If the CBD was too high, it felt like it eliminated some of the euphoric effects of the weed, making it feel pointless: I'd get the intense body feeling, but without euphoria, so it was uncomfortable. I preferred the experience of a little bit of THC.

For me personally, if I were to use CBD I'd prefer to use it on its own and not get high at all. At a dose of 25mg or lower, it seems to not cause many side-effects. When I added THC though, I felt like the side-effects were greater than either one alone.

I read a study suggesting that high dose CBD (they used 600mg) along with an active dose of THC increases the blood level of THC, thus getting you 'higher'. I found this to be true: CBD at 50mg or more somehow both reduced the euphoria of THC but was still capable of making it more 'intense'. This was likely because CBD is an enzyme modulator, and it can inhibit the enzyme that breaks down THC. I'd caution against high dose CBD edibles along with THC, since this can enhance the potential for side-effects.


Quote:

bling said:
Some CBD i bought at a corner store.






That is some nice-looking CBD. Myself, I personally prefer a medicine that comes from a plant.

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: CBD: not a straightforward anxiolyitic. [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28667740 - 02/20/24 06:29 AM (4 months, 3 days ago)

They share a metabolic pathway too.  So it both inhibits the enzymes and forces them to do work that would otherwise metabolize thc.


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