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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28663933 - 02/17/24 01:08 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

The great mantra must be bringing them quietude. Society goes on, war, peace, annihilation, rebirth. Everyone's authorities approach from different perspectives. Everyone chooses their dharma.

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28664003 - 02/17/24 02:08 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28664130 - 02/17/24 03:57 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

What happened to that family?

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28664148 - 02/17/24 04:16 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

flips to back of book...
Oh, I'll have to read it.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: connectedcosmos] * 1
    #28664271 - 02/17/24 05:43 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
Are quotes supposed to specifically intend one meaning ? Does it depend on the quote? Can there be multiple meanings to a quote? Implying at personal interpretation here

All just random food for thought posting without thinking too much on it :tongue2:



Quote:

Once you label me you negate me.



- Soren Kierkegaard





I like this Kierkegaard quote.

I think there are a couple levels to it. On one its that we are all part of the mystery of life. To label or name or reduce or conceptualize anything is to pretend we know "it" and negate the fullness of its connection to life.

On another level we are all complex, full of contradictory multitudes. To label and box in a person with a little thought about them is to negate the rest of them.

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28664617 - 02/17/24 08:31 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

You don't believe in litter control?

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28664825 - 02/18/24 01:05 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

In theory I don't but in practice I have cleared the sidewalk of an overturned trashcan.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #28664874 - 02/18/24 03:59 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

I was looking for context around Kierkegaard's quote, and then into his conflict with Hegel and objective idealism which I thought interesting.

Quote:

    Objectivity vs. Subjectivity:
        Hegel's philosophy was characterized by its emphasis on systematic and objective reasoning. He developed a comprehensive system that sought to explain the totality of reality through the concept of the Absolute Spirit. In contrast, Kierkegaard was more interested in subjective experience, individuality, and the lived, personal aspects of human existence. He believed that Hegel's system overlooked the importance of individual subjectivity and the personal, emotional dimensions of human life.

    Christianity and Existential Concerns:
        Kierkegaard was deeply concerned with religious and existential matters, particularly within a Christian context. He believed that Hegel's philosophical system did not adequately address the profound personal and existential dimensions of faith. Kierkegaard argued that Hegel's rationalistic approach failed to capture the essence of religious commitment and the subjective experience of an individual's relationship with God.

    Teleological Suspension of the Ethical:
        One of Kierkegaard's notable criticisms was directed at Hegel's treatment of ethical issues. Kierkegaard's concept of the "teleological suspension of the ethical" in his work "Fear and Trembling" challenged Hegel's ethical framework. Kierkegaard questioned whether ethical norms should always take precedence over individual, personal commitments, especially in religious contexts.

    Alienation and Abstraction:
        Kierkegaard criticized Hegel for creating a system that he thought was too abstract and detached from concrete, lived experiences. He believed that Hegel's emphasis on the Absolute and the dialectical process led to a form of intellectual alienation and depersonalization, neglecting the individual's immediate existence and subjective struggles.


AI

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28665135 - 02/18/24 08:41 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Who won?

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28665156 - 02/18/24 09:00 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

I at first wasn't getting a possibility of difference in subjectivity and objectivity in the way Hegel's views were described. But I suppose he is looking at it purely in logics and no feels? How could that be in spiritual truths, no experience? Any experience would be subjective.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: connectedcosmos] * 3
    #28665193 - 02/18/24 09:26 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Once you label me you negate me.



- Soren Kierkegaard




Love this quote.

When I label others, I negate & dehumanize them

When I label myself, I negate and dehumanize myself

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28665602 - 02/18/24 01:59 PM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
In theory I don't but in practice I have cleared the sidewalk of an overturned trashcan.




There was a homeless guy living on the sidewalk near me. When he moved on I cleaned up the trash left behind.

On my block there is a lot of open drug dealing. Sometimes I want to pick up the trash just to experience the contrast.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Freedom]
    #28666538 - 02/19/24 08:44 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

If desired, this is now also a favorite spiritual PICTURES discussion thread.

Not that the idea was brought about by a certain recent one.

:excellent:

Edited by syncro (02/19/24 08:46 AM)

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 3
    #28666878 - 02/19/24 01:06 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

If all life is yoga I guess meditation can be constant, not necessarily something to do, to accomplish.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28666964 - 02/19/24 01:57 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

That may be called supreme accomplishment. I suppose it's already true, if wakefulness or awareness is constant.

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28666971 - 02/19/24 02:07 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

I wonder sometimes if substance dependent altered states are less accurate, but we're just bags of chemicals anyway so it may not make a difference whether we slip into a trance state with or without them.

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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown] * 2
    #28666978 - 02/19/24 02:15 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

There is good testimony on entheogens of that like sitting in "Brahman". I don't really know. I did shrooms once last year, and though my GI rebelled and was painful, the void and visionary stuff was uniquely available compared to sober meditation type. I think some ripeness of meditation or concentration can nicely complement tripping.

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Invisiblepacmanbreed
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28666983 - 02/19/24 02:21 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
If all life is yoga I guess meditation can be constant, not necessarily something to do, to accomplish.

it may not make a difference whether we slip into a trance state with or without them.



Quote:

Quote:

I appreciate the gradual realization than one is never not present



Here is Ray Bradbury's perspective described in fiction:
(Cecy is a witch)

When Anne had the bit in her mouth she was able to subdue the influence.




Thanks for sharin, I like, Bradbury's deep perspective :thumbup:
You are here, Ann, and You are not.
Both of the same experience are mutually necessary.

Edited by pacmanbreed (02/19/24 02:47 PM)

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InvisibleLithop
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: syncro] * 3
    #28667398 - 02/19/24 08:39 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
If desired, this is now also a favorite spiritual PICTURES discussion thread.

Not that the idea was brought about by a certain recent one.

:excellent:




That pic accompanies some juicy text, I actually messaged connectedcosmos it earlier this morning but I'll happily put it here as well.
I'm reading (Ideasov Sumjung Gai) some Jung for the first time and this great section/ set of illustrations depicting 'The 4 stages of meditation'

is from a Taoist alchemical text and appears near the start of "Psychology in the East".

Certainly there is an immediate apparant meaning with meditation (the centre among conditions) as sanctuary, or constant, in an ever demanding split of attention through compelling thoughtforms (conditions).
I think it also suggests the possibility for increasingly subtle levels of diffusion in consciousness/awareness- allegedly good if sought but bad if inadvertant- which psychedelics & meditation most certainly let you find out for yourself. To do the genetic life work of a single unit surely requires the spread of an overall consciousness to be reigned in a bit so as to make proceedings appear more... Favourable?
But the selfishness created for physical survival/ gene propegation by that focusing negates some of the good that could come from a diffused yet more unified consciousness. So whats good for the single unit isn't great for the collective good but to even have a collective the single unit must be afforded its luxuries.
:migraine:

Or maybe it suggests the notion of myriad seperate beings operating within the one being, the sort of perpetually branching zoomout that posits us being to the gods as bacteria are to us etc. Like the term 'part and parcel' seeming to imply being both a consituent element AND entirety of a 1.
:shitsintense:

Anyway, the text:

"The meeting between the narrowly delimited, but intensely clear, individual consciousness and the vast expanse of the collective unconscious is dangerous, because the unconscious has a decidedly disintegrating effect on consciousness. According to the Hui Ming Ching, this effect belongs to the peculiar phenomenon of Chinese yoga.
It says:
"Every seperate thought takes shape and becomes visible in colour and form. The total spiritual power unfolds its traces..." The relevant illustration in the text shows a sage sunk in contemplation, his head surrounded by tongues of fire, out of which five human figure emerge; these five again split into twenty five smaller figures. This would be a schizophrenic process if it were to become a permanent state.
Therefore the Hui Ming Ching, as though warning the adept, continues:

"The shapes formed by the spiritfire are only empty colours and forms. The light of human nature (hsing) shines back on the primordial, the true."
So we can understand why the figure of the protecting circle was seized upon. It is intended to prevent the 'outflowing' and to potect the unity of consciousness from being burst asunder by the unconscious. The text seeks to mitigate the disintegrating effect of the unconscious by describing the thought-figures as 'empty colours and forms' thus depotentiating them as much as possible.
This idea runs through the whole of Buddhism (especially the Mahayana form) and, in the instructions to the dead in The Tibetan Book of the Dead, it is even pushed to the point of explaining the favourable as well as unfavourable gods as illusions still to be overcome."


It was hugely eye opening for me a while ago to start interpreting the Bardo Thodol in that way, so I was excited to see that. Like, not only are our seemingly dangerous thoughts taking us- the main character of our one, ME, for a ride- but it's gotten to where we react as if it isn't illusory!
So when presented by these internal karmic reflections, we scramble for all sorts of logical meaning, to define, to recognise, to make sense of- maybe it's like THIS perhaps because of THAT- all wheelspinning when you're dealing with something that isn't necessarily rooted in logic.
Which is A OK: the illusion is often pretty sweet and has a lot to get stuck into- so longs you're open to the possiblity that you aren't going anywhere in the way you thought. Ever. FOR ever. But for many, the drama seems far preferable.

Brings me nicely to Busters point about meditation as a state of being, rather than goal to attain. That's really the way I've looked at it from day one man, and that is where the most value is IMO.
But as soon as I'm getting pissed off or find myself tested and say internally: "Ok, it's an opportunity to practice compassion."
The 'ruling' character in that moment very often gives a big "FUCK YOU AND FUCK COMPASSION! I WANT TO BE ANGRY. I CHOOSE THE DRAMA."
Reactivity on speed dial.
Protests from the part which experiencially knows how this whole situation will transpire if anger is the road taken are scarcely of concern, because the whole situation is so REAL until the brain chemicals & fixation/attachment to topic wears off and I'm (again) thinking "Why was I being such a dick?! I could have EASILY not taken the bait there!"
But 'I' did and do.
Often.
The instructions toward- and warnings about- the level of subtle deception inherant with these seemingly benign constructs if due attention isn't paid, very much being as applicable to life and its situations as bardo states.
They're of the same production team that brought you "Reality®" afterall.

So from all mentioned up till now, I think that the perspective who's able to see the positive 'part' trying to steer things (the 'things' in the picture being 'Conditions') in a favourable direction as the centre amongst conditions, ground aKa Rigpa (the 'Centre amidst conditions').
The OG perceptual spotlight turned on itsself. Behind all the melodramas and emotionally/situationally charged distortions that keep the reactrain a rollin'.
It's who you're laughing with when you get that cosmic joke punchline on psychedelics before it ruffles your astral-hair and sends you back into Samsara until dinner's ready.

I suppose if our experiencing and interpreting a storyline hewn of multiple fragmentary internal systems in our daily lives is like some unfathomabley weird, deeply abstract version of 'The Numskulls', then Rigpa is the kid reading the comic.... Or is that too invested...
Rigpa is the page it's printed on?
Or feels like the page but without edges and is present within each individual numbskull as well as their human host...
:vaped:
Dang it, Syncro.
:lol:
"Label me and you negate me." is an awesome one.
So much said in so few words (maybe one day :lol:) cool seeing a few of you guys thoughts about it in here.
It can be relevant to this meditation pic too, and as RJ touched on dehumanising; by treating these undesirable, confusing or in someway less easily reconciled internal aspects as separate from 'ourself'- or whoever the personality we like to reckon the proper 'we' is- they become dehumanised in a sense and therefore seen as an enemy within ourselves.
Whats more; is that it seems in the labelling, we risk bringing complexity to what may be a mere impulse, breathing life into it.
The meditative axiom of 'Let it come, let it be, let it go.' is perhaps better suited to.... Ehh it's 3:40am & I'm really high, not sure where this ship was headed.
:bongload:
I mean, I like the book so far and reccomend it if that's what I'm doing here?
:confused:
Thanks syncro for summoning me to say 10 words in 10000 and I look forward to further discussion.
:salute:

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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Quotes Discussion [Re: Lithop] * 1
    #28667722 - 02/20/24 06:00 AM (4 months, 3 days ago)

si=IjQWfwkcpboWYiRr


At work right now - can't remember if I shared this

not exactly a quote but a very interesting video nonetheless:strokebeard:


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?

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