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OfflineShrrrooms
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My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether
    #28660196 - 02/14/24 10:31 PM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Need help to decide whether to try again.  Had an assisted trip which started with 3 g cubensis and at least two more after 1 1/2 hours. Sound was very very enhanced and mystical, felt warmth and saw a few colors but nothing really distorted or wierd.  I felt very tired and still do 9 hours later. I largely felt like I was high on marijuana but did find the experience at all emotional, mystical or enjoyable and after 3 hours just wanted it to end.  5 hours later still felt fairly high and tired.  At peak, it was a little hard to concentrate talking and I'm thinking I disappointed the therapist by not having profound insights or issues arise. I have had mild depression for most of my life but had no SSRIs (celexa) for a week and only 5 mg for two months before that.  We had planned to repeat the session after a one day rest.  I am hoping for possible antidepressant effects and the reported improvements in neuroplasticity (I am 67 yo).  I guess I should do another session for these possible benefits but today was very fatiguing with mild nausea and the long duration of feeling high wasn't particularly pleasant.  I can't wait longer for the second experience since I travelled for the therapy.  Can anyone provide insight into whether I am likely going to experience some benefit from this and particularly a second trip where the therapist is thinking 4.5 grams.  She seems to believe the more hallucinogenic breakthrough type experience is necessary to get a real benefit.  Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

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Offlinefractadactyl
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms] * 2
    #28660261 - 02/15/24 01:07 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I'm in the camp of people who believe that microdoses are just marketing and that to get any real benefit you're going to need to take larger doses.
This can be a double edged sword as these types of experiences can be challenging and potentially traumatic.
Lots of unprocessed issues you've been facing, some that you might not even be consciously aware of, can come to light.
Interpretation of these challenging experiences and integration of the lessons learned is key to them actually making a difference.
Also most of the studies done on neuroplasticity and neurogenesis were done with large doses, on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.
Mushrooms can be rough. Growth can be rough.
Alot of times, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. It's existential dread and facing the depths of yourself and your life that you'd rather keep from facing.
The reward lies in facing them and coming to terms with realities that aren't always comfortable.
Like most things worth doing,  it takes time and effort to get to where you're trying to get.
Good luck.


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I have wild cube prints collected from all over the SE US for trade. I welcome PM's about them.

Edited by fractadactyl (02/15/24 01:07 AM)

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OfflineBardy
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms] * 1
    #28660267 - 02/15/24 01:15 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I think she’s correct in assuming the stronger experience will be of more benefit, but it sounds like maybe your SSRI’s could be having the effect of weakening the mushrooms. It can take up to a year for your brain to completely reverse the effects of the SSRI I think.

If I were you I’d go for the higher dose. A true psychedelic experience in all its glory is incredible and words cannot describe it.

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OfflineShrrrooms
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms]
    #28660287 - 02/15/24 02:22 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Thank you for the comments.  I should have specified that the cubensis were freeze dried so this was not a microdose.  Everything I read indicates that 3 grams, with, I think 3 more added after 1 1/2 hours is a substantial dose. Regarding the SSRIs, you may be on to something.  I had been on them for 35 years (mainly celexa 10 mg), off for three months, on 5 mg for 2 months, and then off a week before the dosing.  Others have thought they would not be an issue but I'm not sure there is much data on very long term use. In the research being done, has anyone seen whether those who have had success had to have a very intense trip?  How many had loss of self?  I have not seen this really discussed in the reports

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms]
    #28660291 - 02/15/24 02:34 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

You have overly high expectations from the mushrooms, based on your statements above it seems like you didn't enjoy the experience and got bored talking about it.

So just like exercise you got bored and decided it wasn't working, so by rights you expected the mushrooms to heal you with no input from your side.

Just an observation.

Mushrooms are a tool not a one pill wonder drug that solves all problems in seconds.

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OfflineBardy
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: DERRAYLD] * 1
    #28660312 - 02/15/24 03:28 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

People often come on here wondering why mushrooms don’t work for them when they’ve been on SSRI’s. It’s commonplace.

It depends on the person I think, but it can take a long time for your brain to level out after using them for a long time.

If I were you Shrrrooms I would give it 6 months off the meds completely if you can manage it and then try a moderate dose again.

3g is a pretty strong dose for someone who hasn’t been on SSRI’s, so maybe go 2g or 2.5g after 6 months clean from the meds. Just my opinion.

The tiredness is normal with shrooms as well. They’ll often make you yawn a lot and give you some body load.

You just need a stronger experience.

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Bardy] * 2
    #28660459 - 02/15/24 07:39 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

5mg is a nothing dose of Celexa (20mg is the starting dose for others in the thread, OP weened themselves off of Celexa over months and stopped a week before the trip, even with the long half life and their age I doubt it had much effect on the trip unless there's some liver disease or other medication at play, which can slow down their metabolism even further).

I am curious where the mushrooms were sourced and if they were potency tested.  As cubes can vary in potency from less than 0.5% to clear up to 3.5%.  So the gram one person takes could easily be equal to another person's eighth.

I'm even more curious what your therapeutic relationship was with the counselor.  MAPS does twelve non-drug sessions, divided between prep and integration.  And that's with MDMA, a medicine people have a much easier time being vulnerable on.

It sounds like you traveled.  Were there zoom meetings beforehand or something like that?  In other words.  Do you trust this person?  If not, it will be hard to let your guard down, and I don't suggest forcing it with more psilocybin.


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Edited by tree frog (02/15/24 07:48 AM)

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OfflineShrrrooms
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: tree frog] * 2
    #28660524 - 02/15/24 08:55 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Thanks so much for the great insights and letting me know what others have experienced.  I had two zoom sessions with the counselor but I'm not sure they were productive, like sessions with psychologists earlier in life.  I have had a lifelong interest in relatively few things but do enjoy socializing, playing a lot of tennis,the stock markets and keeping abreast of the news, although things don't seem headed in a good direction now.  Undoubtedly, some degree of boredom and lack of purpose in life with the kids gone is an issue but I don't look around and see things that I think would interest me.  I spend a lot of time as an investor but do it on my own (it can be lonely and frustrating with the ups and downs) and don't need to be doing it anymore.  You may sense this low grade depression called dysemia combined with a lack of energy that i have experienced most of my adult life.
If the next session will not produce breakthrough insights, the burning question becomes is the supposedly proven increase in neuroplasticity something that would be a benefit and worth another trip for that alone?  Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated.

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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Registered: 09/30/19
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28660529 - 02/15/24 09:01 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Ssri meds seem to be a very common factor even if weened off them. It might take more time.

Rapid tolerance for mushrooms is a real thing your second dose was probably not that effective. For a bigger experience it’s better to dose all at once.

After a mushroom trip it can take a week or two to reset so doing then again a day or so after might not work so well.

Mushrooms can be amazing and have helped me so much with depression. However they are never very emotional for me, more awe, amazement and mind fuck.

For deep emotional opening Ayahuasca takes the cake IME.

Edit: per your last question about Neuroplasticity, it’s all new research so there is not a proven protocol. However mushrooms have helped people for who knows how long. However it doesn’t fix you alone it can just help show you the way.

Edited by CHUCK.HNTR (02/15/24 09:06 AM)

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: CHUCK.HNTR] * 1
    #28660613 - 02/15/24 10:17 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I maybe underestimating the effect age and metabolism are having on the drug clearing.  And overestimating how fast those receptors would reach homeostasis afterwards.

That said, I used to trip on a pretty high ssri dose.  The effects were different for sure but I still was able to trip.  Especially if I got into the 3.5+ territory.

Therapeutic relationship is a real thing though.  If a person doesn't feel safe with the facilitator they're going to have a lot of difficulty letting go.


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28660662 - 02/15/24 11:08 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

That three grams and booster you taken is a good dose of mushrooms.  What is the dose to the thought next session?

Like to hear about how the next one goes.

I doubt any great benefit to the ingestion of these mushroom to that therapy setting.  Though, if you find pleasant the in and out of experience, as you hadn’t to first and another dose so soon surely hold much all characteristics to experience only bit heavier than before and maybe little more visuals, though if do find something more than first trip try growing at home to have one experience in your very own hOMe Sweet hOMe.  A little more intimate there. Ya’ know? A place you can lay out naked. 

Best of luck.


--------------------
Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!!

Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: WhoManBeing] * 1
    #28660668 - 02/15/24 11:16 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Yeah, I trip at home and integrate in therapy.  My therapist is aware and helpful.  And I trust her.

I made a post about it the other day others may find helpful.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28658064


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Edited by tree frog (02/15/24 11:17 AM)

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OfflineShrrrooms
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #28661480 - 02/15/24 11:02 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

I have decided to do it again tomorrow.  Therapist says she frequently does days close together and in ceremonial use is sometimes sequential days.  Came out here to do this so feeling very tired and queasy for a day is not too bad a price to pay if it even might help me.  Otherwise, I'll never know.  She will do 4 or 4.5 grams all at once and a different strain. The dose she did before was 3 then .75 after 1 1/2 hours and 1.25 later.  No wonder it seemed to drag on when I was hoping it would end because it just felt like a marijuana high near the end which wasn't pleasant.  Thanks for your thoughts everyone.  I found this old thread I posted of an email exchange with Fadiman where he didn't think my meds would be an issue but we were talking about microdosing at the time.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25665067

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InvisibleCHUCK.HNTR
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms] * 1
    #28661683 - 02/16/24 06:52 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

That’s cool you corresponded with JF!
Have a safe journey report back!


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"What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

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OfflineShrrrooms
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
    #28663063 - 02/16/24 08:45 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

So I did it today and it was far more intense. My therapist seemed pleased. I did not realize it but she actually teaches others to conduct sessions in Colorado and has been doing this for about 10 years. She talked to a doctor who was active in MAPS about my situation.  He said he would go with 10 grams! That shocked me so we ended up settling on 8 grams cubensis penis envy, finely ground prepared in tea with ginger, honey and a couple other things. Very quick onset with very intense trembling although she said my amount was normal. I felt very very high, intense sounds again, saw colors and patterns. I was coming down after about 2 1/2 hours and now 5 hours later feeling very relaxed and good unlike the last trip where I was super tired and slightly nauseated. As I said I felt very high which may be why I don't really remember too much or what colors or patterns I saw.  It was not an emotional experience and I had no revelations insights or anything from my past appear.  I do remember thinking I will never do this again.  It is very bizarre and I have never felt that high in my life, a feeling I don't like. I could have gotten up and probably returned to reality sooner but just decided to keep laying down and let the experience happen. At 4 hours I could carry on good conversation on we went out for a walk. I really didn't know what to expect and have had no trauma in my life and none surfaced.  Now I am feeling very relaxed and calm and stayed that way even when my wife went on a rant about politics and I was unjustly being blamed for trying to add a dose of reason. I told her I do not car to have discussions like that again. I hope this calm continues and that I can avoid going back on a low dose celexa and experiencing as much fatigue. If those thing happen, this will have been well worthwhile. So no ego dissolution or brilliant insights but hopefully it will help me get out some routines which i know cause a lot of stress such as unnecessarily devoting too much time to investing in very high volatility stocks and not deriving a lot of satisfaction from doing so. This may be of no interest to anyone but I will provide an update on how things go.  Thanks so much for the help from people on this board, now and previously.

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Offlinetree frog
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Re: My first trip-assisted Something greater than level 1 but not level 2-Need help to decide whether [Re: Shrrrooms]
    #28663097 - 02/16/24 09:05 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

Brilliant insights are overrated imo.  The insights that stick come from integration and it sounds like you're finding those.


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